Okay, Sightstone changes weren't awful.

RenownedWheat42·Jan 29, 2018·44 votes·2,466 views

Tank supp main here, and I was dreading the loss of FOTM enough that I swapped to mid and top for a little bit so I wouldn't have to deal with what I thought was going to be a pretty awful change. Jumped back into it yesterday and I gotta say, while I still hate not having my shield battery or at LEAST my FOTM active, it's not even close to awful.

500g on a targons I would have bought in the first place and now I'm saving 800g on a sightstone, lets me get wards up a hell of a lot earlier so I can start making plays a hell of a lot earlier. I lose valuable tankiness but I gain vision and now I can rush literally anything else - KV, glory, locket, whatever, and this actually makes up for some of the loss of pure shield/hp.

It's not fantastic but it feels good to play. More streamlined and honestly it works out really well. Even if it's not my favorite I'm actually happy with the change.

101 Comments

ModKnightsKemplarJan 29, 20189 votes

Glad to hear it!

I think that was always the goal; the amount of freedom in your build is up quite a bit with this change, and I think a lot of people didn't realize how awesome that would be. Now you can build much more situationally for the enemy based on their comp and your win conditions.

I think it'll only get better as people start to realize some of the possibilities that are open to them. I agree that losing targon's is a bummer, but I think it'll balance out once the dust settles. Might have to wiggle some stats around on the other items, but I think it's good overall.

RenownedWheat42Jan 30, 20184 votes

If the rumors of all of the actives returning (instead of just talisman and spoopy ghosts) on separate items is true, this might honestly be one of the best changes I think the game could ever make.

Without those, however, the change is still good. Build freedom is nice, and rushing an impacting item is a great feeling.

GinoSoldierJan 30, 201810 votes

I do think the third upgrades of the money items should give the old quest rewards straight up for upgrading the damn things to tier 3. They're hardly worth being so much as looked at right now, could be a good way to make it interesting. That and amp the price and value of the tier 3 items to something reasonable like 2300, but that's something Riot won't do lol.

RenownedWheat42Jan 30, 20183 votes

I will admit I never go to tier three so far. Not worth it at all. Much better investment to just work on a new, useful item.

I do agree though. These tier three upgrades suck so damn bad, but the regular tier twos are so ridiculously efficient.

Tenth LeperJan 30, 20188 votes

{quoted}

I do think the third upgrades of the money items should give the old quest rewards straight up for upgrading the damn things to tier 3. They're hardly worth being so much as looked at right now, could be a good way to make it interesting. That and amp the price and value of the tier 3 items to something reasonable like 2300, but that's something Riot won't do lol

Old rewards at t3 is a marvelous idea!

ChaddyFantomeJan 30, 20185 votes

{quoted}

If the rumors of all of the actives returning (instead of just talisman and spoopy ghosts) on separate items is true, this might honestly be one of the best changes I think the game could ever make.

Without those, however, the change is still good. Build freedom is nice, and rushing an impacting item is a great feeling.

Except you don't have any real build freedom. How do you have more build freedom when your options were taken away?

RenownedWheat42Jan 30, 20183 votes

'cuz now you're not forced to upgrade your support item immediately for subpar effects? Locket, KV, glory are all incredibly powerful first-purchases to make and they're way more impacting than Shield Battery or Emperor's Favor.

Yes, we lost actives (that, again, are going to come back, so it's not like we REALLY lost anything in the long run), but we now only have to spend our first 850 on our support item/wards and then literally everything else goes into the rest of our kit.

If you'd invested into a fully upgraded supp item plus ruby sightstone before it was like 2150 + 1600 I believe? And that was like the core of a support kit unless you took Eye of the (whatever). 850 for my gold income item plus wards instead of 3750 is DEFINITELY more freedom.

ChaddyFantomeJan 30, 20187 votes

{quoted}

'cuz now you're not forced to upgrade your support item immediately for subpar effects?

You didn't have to before the change tho? No clue why you believe we had to. Additionally, this change went as far as making upgrading the item a legitimately bad idea, if not a straight up noob trap.

This is why i say your freedom was taken away. You actually had choices and options before. You don't now. In fact, all they have done is take them away, and then present you with a single option that is strictly worse than not taking it. And in both cases, the options you have are simply worse than what we had before.

Locket, KV, glory are all incredibly powerful first-purchases to make and they're way more impacting than Shield Battery or Emperor's Favor.

You aren't getting those as early as you were getting the other items. the gold difference simply isn't there. But lets say for a second that you were.

How is this a good thing? All this does is snowball the game that much more.

Nevertheless, this again, misses the entire point. These changes simply made the role less fun overall. There is more to a game than simply winning. If i just wanted to win, i'd spam Evelynn jungle in ranked.

Yes, we lost actives (that, again, are going to come back, so it's not like we REALLY lost anything in the long run),

Except now you have to reinvest even MORE gold back into getting what you already got before, and trust me, that 800g you aren't spending on Sightstone isn't gonna cut it unless the items are gonna be stupidly cheap. It simply doesn't make sense, especially on a role that doesn't make it to 6 items as quickly as others.

but we now only have to spend our first 850 on our support item/wards and then literally everything else goes into the rest of our kit.

See the above point. Whatsmore is said 800g wont get me my support quest buffs back.

If you'd invested into a fully upgraded supp item plus ruby sightstone before it was like 2150 + 1600 I believe? And that was like the core of a support kit unless you took Eye of the (whatever). 850 for my gold income item plus wards instead of 3750 is DEFINITELY more freedom.

Except why would i fully upgrade to Ruby Sightstone right away? And a great deal of people actually went for the Eye items before the change, because the Eye items were actually good unlike the current ones.

None of this is actual freedom. it is simply the guise of freedom.

You aren't doing anything you weren't doing before. They simply took out options and pretending it is giving you more leeway when in reality all it does is take away depth from the itemization of the role, while also taking away the fun and interactive elements of it in favor of appealing to autofill supports that never bought Sightstone to begin with, and iIget it. Sightstone was bad design. Trust me, I was one of the people preaching the gospel. But this change was the worst possible way to go about trying to fix it.

Dorans PantsJan 30, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Except you don't have any real build freedom. How do you have more build freedom when your options were taken away?

(sarcasm incoming)

how can u not get it? it´s so simple:

old: buy support item --> DECIDE if u want to rush sightstone or not ---> DECIDE if u want to merge the two items or CHOOSE to upgrade for the active ---> start building your core items/situational items

new: buy support item --> get a sightstone for free --> start bulding the exact same core items/situational items 800g earlier except u have now 5 items + actives + questrewards less

so much more build diversity (/sarcasm) [zombie-brand-mindblown]

ChaddyFantomeJan 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dorans Pants,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA1lBVhX,comment-id=0000000000010001,timestamp=2018-01-30T14:11:54.778+0000)

how can u not get it? it´s so simple (sarcasm):

old: buy support item --> DECIDE if u want to rush sightstone or not ---> DECIDE if u want to merge the two items or CHOOSE to upgrade for the active ---> start building your core items/situational items

new: buy support item --> get a sightstone for free --> start bulding the exact same core items/situational items 800g earlier except u have now 5 items + actives + questrewards less

so much more build diversity [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Do you know what Diversity means? Because what you described isn't diversity. You don't have more choices at all. All your choices were taken. Having less steps to start building "more core items" isn't diversity, you are going to build then anyway, you are just starting to build then sooner now.

The net result of the change was now you are forced to Build what is effectively a worse version of the eye items and you have no option for active and your quest buffs were removed.

You didn't "gain an extra slot" because that option existed already. You didn't "gain diversity" because nothing has changed to make you consider different build options.

If you were gonna rush KV as Tahm before, you are still gonna do it now. Nothing has changed in that regard.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

ninjaroxasJan 31, 20182 votes

He was being sarcastic.... he even said he was [slayer-jinx-unamused]

ChaddyFantomeJan 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

He was being sarcastic.... he even said he was [slayer-jinx-unamused]

he was talkign about ti "beign simple" when saying "sarcasm".

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Dorans PantsJan 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

he was talkign about ti "beign simple" when saying "sarcasm".

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

no, i just goofed up. i thought it would be smarter to put the sarcasm marker before the main text, so people wouldn´t be confused, and by doing this achieved the exact opposite.

ggwp

ChaddyFantomeFeb 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dorans Pants,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA1lBVhX,comment-id=00000000000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-31T20:04:07.060+0000)

no, i just goofed up. i thought it would be smarter to put the sarcasm marker before the main text, so people wouldn´t be confused, and by doing this achieved the exact opposite.

ggwp

So i take it the other account is your Alt? lmao.

Dorans PantsFeb 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So i take it the other account is your Alt? lmao.

nah. why do u think that?

BlakiepugJan 30, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Glad to hear it!

I think that was always the goal; the amount of freedom in your build is up quite a bit with this change, and I think a lot of people didn't realize how awesome that would be. Now you can build much more situationally for the enemy based on their comp and your win conditions.

I think it'll only get better as people start to realize some of the possibilities that are open to them. I agree that losing targon's is a bummer, but I think it'll balance out once the dust settles. Might have to wiggle some stats around on the other items, but I think it's good overall.

To be honest, this feels like it restricts my freedom more than anything. Now I have to buy a sightstone every game otherwise I'm not able to keep up in gold without a support item. I used to be able to choose if I wanted sightstone or not, but now it is on every support item. :/

ChaddyFantomeJan 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

To be honest, this feels like it restricts my freedom more than anything. Now I have to buy a sightstone every game otherwise I'm not able to keep up in gold without a support item. I used to be able to choose if I wanted sightstone or not, but now it is on every support item. :/

okay, I DESPISE these changes but this is a terrible argument. The entire point of the change was so that players like yourself wouldn't have to buy sightstone. Now here you are complaining that it is even in your inventory even if you don't have to actually get it. [sg-lux-2]

BlakiepugJan 30, 20184 votes

{quoted}

okay, I DESPISE these changes but this is a terrible argument. The entire point of the change was so that players like yourself wouldn't have to buy sightstone. Now here you are complaining that it is even in your inventory even if you don't have to actually get it. [sg-lux-2]

My point was that there is less variety now which in turn does make me feel like I am restricted in my freedom to choose how I want to approach the support role as an individual player. Part of the reason the support starting items were so enjoyable to me before was because of the variety they offered in their actives. However, now it just feels like a pick your color of sightstone since they all give the same active ability. And what's even worse is that it is not a fun active ability at that (or at least for me it isn't).

The point of the change Riot made was to free up an item slot for support players who previously rushed sightstone in addition to their support item; not to help support players like me who actively chose not to buy sighstone before. This change means that I have to take sightstone because it is tied to the support starting items now. (I'm also confused how this change was supposed to help item diversity when the final build Eye support items all existed before this change. Maybe players didn't use them very often but the option was always there.)

ModKnightsKemplarJan 30, 20182 votes

But those items were more expensive.

I see your argument, but it's an argument that is based on a full item build, which is rare. With the current setup, the gold investment needed for basic vision and a complete support item is significantly lower, which means you can turn your attention to the rest of the items more quickly in a game.

It's true that you could have ignored your upgraded gold items before, but that wasn't efficient. It was usually just the wrong choice to do that. The difference now is that you can complete that efficient item and get on the rest of your build faster, and that's now an efficient choice.

I can't argue with your preference, but the goal has to do with whether or not this has promoted diversity. If the statistics show that diversity is up, then it's a success.

BlakiepugJan 30, 20183 votes

{quoted}

But those items were more expensive.

I see your argument, but it's an argument that is based on a full item build, which is rare. With the current setup, the gold investment needed for basic vision and a complete support item is significantly lower, which means you can turn your attention to the rest of the items more quickly in a game.

It's true that you could have ignored your upgraded gold items before, but that wasn't efficient. It was usually just the wrong choice to do that. The difference now is that you can complete that efficient item and get on the rest of your build faster, and that's now an efficient choice.

I can't argue with your preference, but the goal has to do with whether or not this has promoted diversity. If the statistics show that diversity is up, then it's a success.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure if you understood what I was saying in the post you replied to. As someone who never bought sightstone before in the support role, it feels like item diversity went down since now instead of having the choice to pick between 3 cool actives I am stuck with the boring sightstone active no matter which of the starting items I choose. I don't see how full item builds play into this since I am getting to items outside of my third tier support item at about the same time as before. And even if you are someone who before had two item slots taken up (one by sightstone and the other by your starting item), that was a choice you were actively making. The Eye items existed before. Now what is different is that you get the wards from the Targon component instead of the sightstone component item itself.

I never ignored my upgraded gold items before either. I would always rush Face of the Mountain out as my first item, sometimes even before boots if I got a good enough back. Do you have statistics that show item diversity is up? To be honest, I'm not sure what these would look like other than maybe no one is buying sightstone because it is no longer in the game. But even then, I'm not sure how that would suggest item diversity has increased since I could then make that argument about the removal of any item from the game.

EDIT: Also, when they do eventually add the support item actives back into the game (assuming Riot follows-through), wouldn't we just be in a similar position to where we were before? Supports who want Mountain's or Frostqueen's or Coin's active will then just be forced to purchase the Eye items as their gold-generating starting items whereas before they had the choice to make either the Eye item or Frostqueen's/Coin/Mountain their gold-generating item.

ModKnightsKemplarJan 30, 20181 votes

As you pointed out, those support item actives were too good to pass up in most cases. Which means most people were buying a sightstone and their support item as part of their core. You only get to make one more choice as part of your three item core in that case. That's where people (and Riot) are getting the idea that diversity was low.

Now, they'll have one gold item that also gives wards, and they'll get two more items. That's the same as your case, where you got to build 1 gold item and two other items. So diversity-wise, I don't see the difference, even for you. For the rest of the playerbase (averaged), it's gonna go up a bit.

Now for this sidenote about sightstone; you're expected as a support to have this ward item, and it's not really different from expecting junglers to take smite. In most cases, that was already the optimal thing to do. Very fews supports are running around with good win rates without a sightstone, and the stats did show that. I can't draw up old stats from op.gg, but sightstone items were always part of the best and most common builds for every support I ever looked at.

As far as asking for stats about diversity, it looks like it's up to me. Low on data atm, but Taric is seeing some success in plat+ building freakin' frozen heart. How long has it been since we've gotten to see supports rushing an actual tank item second? In case you don't pay attention to Taric stats, it's been quite awhile. I wish I could pull up op.gg stats to see just how long. Unfortunately, I cannot.

BlakiepugJan 31, 20182 votes

{quoted}

As you pointed out, those support item actives were too good to pass up in most cases. Which means most people were buying a sightstone and their support item as part of their core. You only get to make one more choice as part of your three item core in that case. That's where people (and Riot) are getting the idea that diversity was low.

Now, they'll have one gold item that also gives wards, and they'll get two more items. That's the same as your case, where you got to build 1 gold item and two other items. So diversity-wise, I don't see the difference, even for you. For the rest of the playerbase (averaged), it's gonna go up a bit.

Now for this sidenote about sightstone; you're expected as a support to have this ward item, and it's not really different from expecting junglers to take smite. In most cases, that was already the optimal thing to do. Very fews supports are running around with good win rates without a sightstone, and the stats did show that. I can't draw up old stats from op.gg, but sightstone items were always part of the best and most common builds for every support I ever looked at.

As far as asking for stats about diversity, it looks like it's up to me. Low on data atm, but Taric is seeing some success in plat+ building freakin' frozen heart. How long has it been since we've gotten to see supports rushing an actual tank item second? In case you don't pay attention to Taric stats, it's been quite awhile. I wish I could pull up op.gg stats to see just how long. Unfortunately, I cannot.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I feel like I stated myself pretty well but if my side of things doesn't make sense, then I guess nothing more I can say will make people understand my viewpoint. I just cannot get behind these support changes. To me, this was probably the worst change I have seen Riot ever make to hinder my personal enjoyment of the game (it's either this or the 5 months of lethality Jhin meta).

ModKnightsKemplarJan 31, 20183 votes

I totally get that, and I'm not trying to change your mind about that.

There is a an inherent subjectivity to whether or not you enjoy something; I was merely trying to extrapolate on the reasons they did it and challenge your way of thinking about it a bit. If I haven't convinced you, I am certainly not offended by that.

I think it's really important to tell Riot when you don't like changes. You may not always get exactly what you're hoping for, but the conversation itself is important in teasing out what works and what doesn't (and why). At least, that's my opinion on the matter.

AMYS GRAVEJan 30, 20183 votes

With the current setup, the gold investment needed for basic vision and a complete support item is significantly lower,

But you're getting significantly less for that gold when you aren't getting the quest effects.

I can't argue with your preference, but the goal has to do with whether or not this has promoted diversity. If the statistics show that diversity is up, then it's a success.

This shows a misunderstanding of the problems at hand. How is removing 4 items from the class supposed to improve build diversity? If the answer is that these items were ubiquitous because of their power then they were imbalanced and riot's inability to balance their item system is a separate problem that won't end with these items being removed. If they were ubiquitous because they were popular then why remove items that people are having fun with, that's the opposite of a problem. If they weren't crowding out other items then removing them won't promote build diversity but will limit it. In any case this doesn't achieve the stated goals. At best it does no harm at the cost of significant developer time, and at worst it removed popular items making the role worse for many people.

The difference now is that you can complete that efficient item and get on the rest of your build faster, and that's now an efficient choice.

Bot lane (support and ADC collectively) is already the hardest scaling value oriented lane in the game, why do they need the added tempo of getting support items faster? The weakness of going a hard value lane like adc+support is being weak to tempo plays, and this change highly mitigates that weakness.

ModKnightsKemplarJan 30, 20182 votes

See my response to blakiepug; http://na.op.gg/champion/taric/statistics/support

Taric is getting FH or Ardent, Braum is getting locket, Alistar and Leo can succeed on righteous glory... I'm sure the list goes on (I just checked some of the better performing tank supports since I'm a Taric player).

Before this change, they all bought the same thing. FotM into Sightstone. And most of the variations on builds for each champ were just getting the same items in a different order; there's still some of that, to be sure, but you have actual options now. You didn't before. Sure looks like more diversity to me.

You can accuse people of not understanding the problem if you want... but please explain why it worked if Riot didn't understand the problem?

AMYS GRAVEJan 30, 20182 votes

OK, i can repeat myself.... Please directly answer if you're going to reply, because i haven't seen answers to any of these concerns from anyone yet, and otherwise its just dodging the conversation.

Taric is getting FH or Ardent, Braum is getting locket, Alistar and Leo can succeed on righteous glory... I'm sure the list goes on (I just checked some of the better performing tank supports since I'm a Taric player).

Ok, they are buying the items they bought before, just sooner. So answer my question, why do they need the added tempo of getting support items faster? Why was bot in such a place that they needed gold acceleration into the mid game? Were ADCs struggling? Were supports not having enough impact early?

Before this change, they all bought the same thing. FotM into Sightstone.

As [blakiepug] pointed out, those support item actives were too good to pass up in most cases.

So FotM was overtuned? If so then the inability to balance the item system wont go away just because a few items were removed. Also Phreak would disagree with your assessment that the support actives were overtuned. "Most pros almost always bought eye because that was the better itemization choice." --Phreak.

If it was instead just because it was popular then that isn't a problem, people genuinely liked the item and removing it is a bad move. By that kind of logic we should remove ahri and zed because their popularity is crowding out champion diversity.

Now, they'll have one gold item that also gives wards, and they'll get two more items.

Sightstone + gold gen item vs gold gen item which becomes sightstone. That's only one more item, not two, because you still have to buy the gold gen item. I'll also point out that buying the eye item was always an option (the correct one competitively) so its not like this extra slot wasn't accessible if desired.

you have actual options now. You didn't before.

Options like FotM and ruby sightstone, going for the itemCDR build? Removing item options isn't giving you more options. Please explain how that logic works because its beyond me how you can get more item combinations with fewer choices.

How long has it been since we've gotten to see supports rushing an actual tank item second?

Taric is building FH third not second.

but please explain why it worked if Riot didn't understand the problem?

I disagree with your premise that this change "worked", It didn't solve any the underlying problems. Looking at the taric builds you linked i see one meta build (support item into locket and ardent) with one off meta build involving FH. That's two choices, one of which is only 5% playrate. That sure doesn't look like item diversity to me.

EDIT: reordering for flow & adding link to phreak's video. Also note in Phreak's discussion he was looking at an early version of the patch notes with a typo about combined costs, he mentions this in the video.

ModKnightsKemplarJan 30, 20182 votes

Taric wasn't buying FH before.

It's not about strength, it's about diversity. They needed it because bot lane item meta was 80% stagnated, and that's not interesting and presents no interesting choices. This addresses both your 1st and 2nd points.

Having more items =/= more options. If you have only 2 build paths that are viable, then your options are limited to 2. By taking away those items, you can actually increase diversity by decreasing items. Bear in mind that this argument hinges on a level of play where viability actually matters; from bronze --> master, item diversity decreases because there is more pressure to optimize your build. In bronze, I would argue that little of this applies to players who are plat+; they can build whatever they want and still crush because of the high skill disparity between them and their opponents.

If you sort by highest win rate, top build rushes FH second. I didn't get that wrong; just doublt-checked. It's a low sample size, but that's an effective strat right now (at least in some cases). That's build diversity; being able to buy those items in a different order with success is important to League's health.

Furthermore, not all tank supports are doing that. That's also part of build diversity.

AMYS GRAVEJan 31, 20182 votes

If you sort by highest win rate, top build rushes FH second.

Taric, items, sort by WR...

No it doesn't, his FH build is his 8th highest WR build (60%) and has FH third. It is beat by all six orderings of locket+ardent+eye which get up to 84% WR. Anyone can check this, you yourself even provided the evidence, i don't understand why you are pushing this narrative which is demonstrably false....

It's not about strength, it's about diversity.

From the taric example you posted the core builds are 92% the same three core items. That's in no way build diversity, so they've failed on that metric.

If you have only 2 build paths that are viable, then your options are limited to 2.

The eye items were always viable, pros demonstrated this as that was almost exclusively what they built and i've cited that statement so your argument falls apart. There were more build paths before than there are now, i don't understand how the same core builds in 92% of games is at all build diversity considering every single one of his three item core builds now includes eye + locket. Every. Single. One.

Tarics old three item core builds were permutations of Ruby SS+ face + locket Ruby SS + face + ardent eye + locket + ardent eye + locket + zekes eye + ardent + zekes

now he has eye + locket + ardent eye + locket + FH eye + locket + zekes

3<5.

EDIT: also, i'll ask again, why did bot lane an additional 800 gold acceleration in tempo? Item diversity can be addressed without acceleration in those item purchases. That's like saying that giving top lane a free 800 gold at 10 min will allow them to build more diverse items which is just false. It allows them to build their items sooner, but doesn't improve build diversity.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Taric, items, sort by WR...

No it doesn't, his FH build is his 8th highest WR build (60%) and has FH third. It is beat by all six orderings of locket+ardent+eye which get up to 84% WR. Anyone can check this, you yourself even provided the evidence, i don't understand why you are pushing this narrative which is demonstrably false....

From the taric example you posted the core builds are 92% the same three core items. That's in no way build diversity, so they've failed on that metric.

The eye items were always viable, pros demonstrated this as that was almost exclusively what they built and i've cited that statement so your argument falls apart. There were more build paths before than there are now, i don't understand how the same core builds in 92% of games is at all build diversity considering every single one of his three item core builds now includes eye + locket. Every. Single. One.

Tarics old three item core builds were permutations of Ruby SS+ face + locket Ruby SS + face + ardent eye + locket + ardent eye + locket + zekes eye + ardent + zekes

now he has eye + locket + ardent eye + locket + FH eye + locket + zekes

3<5.

EDIT: also, i'll ask again, why did bot lane an additional 800 gold acceleration in tempo? Item diversity can be addressed without acceleration in those item purchases. That's like saying that giving top lane a free 800 gold at 10 min will allow them to build more diverse items which is just false. It allows them to build their items sooner, but doesn't improve build diversity.

Say it louder, so they can hear it! [sg-kiko]

AMYS GRAVEFeb 1, 20181 votes

As if they listen or would engage in a logic and evidence based discussion that doesn't fit their narrative...

ChaddyFantomeJan 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

My point was that there is less variety now which in turn does make me feel like I am restricted in my freedom to choose how I want to approach the support role as an individual player. Part of the reason the support starting items were so enjoyable to me before was because of the variety they offered in their actives. However, now it just feels like a pick your color of sightstone since they all give the same active ability. And what's even worse is that it is not a fun active ability at that (or at least for me it isn't).

I agree 100%. this echoes my feelings towards the change as well.

The point of the change Riot made was to free up an item slot for support players who previously rushed sightstone in addition to their support item; not to help support players like me who actively chose not to buy sighstone before.

.....Why didn't you? Did you like losing games for your team?

This change means that I have to take sightstone because it is tied to the support starting items now.

...no, what it means is now you don't actually have to because you essentially get it for free now. All this line tells me is that your aren't even willing to so much as put up with warding as a support in any capacity.

(I'm also confused how this change was supposed to help item diversity when the final build Eye support items all existed before this change. Maybe players didn't use them very often but the option was always there.)

Your guess is as good as mine, as i keep telling people exactly this. It didn't help build diversity at all. It restricted it. The option for slot efficiency already existed. The change simply limited you to that choice and none else.

BlakiepugJan 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I agree 100%. this echoes my feelings towards the change as well.

.....Why didn't you? Did you like losing games for your team?

...no, what it means is now you don't actually have to because you essentially get it for free now. All this line tells me is that your aren't even willing to so much as put up with warding as a support in any capacity.

Your guess is as good as mine, as i keep telling people exactly this. It didn't help build diversity at all. It restricted it. The option for slot efficiency already existed. The change simply limited you to that choice and none else.

I actually climbed all the way to Gold 1 last season having never bought a sightstone in all my games as a support main. I enjoyed finding other ways to help my team outside of warding. Not to mention I have grown pretty well in predicting where my enemies are and where they are going to be which allowed my team to catch the enemies out several times when they think we don't know where they are because they swept for wards. Playing without wards really helps you to get a sense for some common trends in enemy movement patterns imho. And I'm really not willing to put up with warding as a support. If you don't agree with me that is fine. But that is why I despise the new support changes. For me the wards on Targon's didn't come free. They came at the cost of one of my favorite items in the game: Face of the Mountain.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 1, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I actually climbed all the way to Gold 1 last season having never bought a sightstone in all my games as a support main. I enjoyed finding other ways to help my team outside of warding. Not to mention I have grown pretty well in predicting where my enemies are and where they are going to be which allowed my team to catch the enemies out several times when they think we don't know where they are because they swept for wards. Playing without wards really helps you to get a sense for some common trends in enemy movement patterns imho. And I'm really not willing to put up with warding as a support. If you don't agree with me that is fine.

Fair enough. Whatever floats your boat.

But that is why I despise the new support changes. For me the wards on Targon's didn't come free. They came at the cost of one of my favorite items in the game: Face of the Mountain.

That is 100% accurate way of looking at it. Not only did it come at the costs of those active variants, but Shield Battery, Emperors Favor and FrostQueen's Tribute Quest buffs as well.

This change was simply terrible across the board.

ÚnholyJan 30, 20181 votes

Why aren't comments posted in chronological order based on time posted like any other normal forum regardless of status?

Very strange.

I know this isn't the place for it, but Christ - this forum is ugly, and the system for ordering posts makes everything very difficult to follow... Not to mention the color layout that acts as a boundary from one post to another.

SH AzykanJan 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lunar Curse,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA1lBVhX,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2018-01-30T16:22:54.922+0000)

Why aren't comments posted in chronological order based on time posted like any other normal forum regardless of status?

Very strange. Is it sort of like, Riot (or community) approved users and/or posts are shifted to the top for everybody to see and vice versa for comments we don't want people reading?

I know this isn't the place for it, but Christ - this forum is ugly, and the system for ordering posts makes everything very difficult to follow... Not to mention the color layout that acts as a boundary from one post to another.

you can swap from discussion view to chronological view to see it that way, though a lot of comments will likely not make as much sense since you will be missing the context of what they are a reply to.

ÚnholyJan 30, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=CryF Zykan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA1lBVhX,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2018-01-30T16:54:37.014+0000)

you can swap from discussion view to chronological view to see it that way, though a lot of comments will likely not make as much sense since you will be missing the context of what they are a reply to.

Cheers, that works. Far more intuitive. Well, it does actually show who the commenter was responding to (if a quote was not included).

ModKnightsKemplarJan 30, 20182 votes

Part of the reason for discussion view is that we want people to be able to easily track a back-and-forth conversation between people. Having several comment threads makes a lot of sense often; there are still a lot of people that hate it.

I believe the General Discussion sub-board is still chronological view only, if that's your thing.

stillserenityJan 30, 20187 votes

well half of my sups lost their super effectiveness cause item 3312 was my main stay, enemy clearing wards? pop ghosts enemy running? pop ghosts need to check baron to see if bait?pop ghosts ,now it like heeey we got rid of it and the sup you play really can only help like 10champs soooo gl on you build path also reason i dont go true tank sup is cause main stay tank items offer more and support SURVIVING while tank sup items say dive and maybe youll live who knows heres a biscut be a good boy and dive for your adc

RenownedWheat42Jan 30, 20184 votes

The active for FQC is coming back. Riot announced it would be BEFORE the supp change was implemented. All of our old actives will be returning on new items.

Sexy Jack RabbitJan 30, 20184 votes

Not untrue at all but it doesn't help the fact that until then Item diversity for AP bots and Enchanter supports has been somewhat gutted.

item 3306 was a nice respite for the overloaded amount of heal and shield items that allowed you to offer another kind of utility to your team.

item 3312 was a nice item for AP bots who often didn't opt into as much sight as other supports due to their more damage focused nature. That being said it was probably amongst one of the most abused item paths in the game.

ÚnholyJan 30, 20187 votes

What if I don't want to start Targon's Brace for any reason or any other support item for that matter? What if non-supports wanted to purchase items which would give them a vision or utility advantage? That's not even an option now. Now one slot has an inferior option to what could have been there previously, in fact, one could argue that in some cases TWO slots would be inferior. Yes, gold is saved early, but what about later during the game should it carry on? Supports will have less power in the long run. Hell, low ELO can't even last hit minions if they opt for Targon's, and can't poke if they opt for Spellthief's - so, in those cases, vision, which may be crucial, will be postponed. That's just one situation, if during the laning phase, one is being dominated, then the same outcome applies. This is limiting my options, not expanding them (sums up S7/S8 LoL).

They should bring back offensive/defensive ACTIVES to these items at the very least.

At-least it's not as bad as the other updates that are coming along this year. Still a regression.

Sp33d Zer0Jan 30, 20182 votes

I can't really think of a scenario where you are playing a support (unless its super off meta) where you wouldn't want a support item.

Even just the passive gold generation makes it the most valuable starting item for you as a support.

ÚnholyJan 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA1lBVhX,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2018-01-30T19:49:37.661+0000)

I can't really think of a scenario where you are playing a support (unless its super off meta) where you wouldn't want a support item.

Even just the passive gold generation makes it the most valuable starting item for you as a support.

A fair point. The other critiques still apply, though (i.e. late game influence, vision for non-support champions).

Sp33d Zer0Jan 30, 20183 votes

Phreak made a really good point though. If you are playing a tank top lane or a tank jungle who wants sightstone, you can actually pretty efficiently get it for cheaper by going to lanes every 1:30 or having jungle come top and just sharing some gold. It helps your team, escalates your gold, and is incredibly cost efficient.

RenownedWheat42Jan 30, 20182 votes

Top lane vision is actually pretty easy if you run coin. I've done it with Aatrox and Kayle and didn't honestly suffer for it. Miss some CS due to harass, doesn't matter cuz you still get coins most of the time. It's still a pretty efficient purchase imo.

ÚnholyJan 30, 20182 votes

Phreak made a really good point though. If you are playing a tank top lane or a tank jungle who wants sightstone, you can actually pretty efficiently get it for cheaper by going to lanes every 1:30 or having jungle come top and just sharing some gold. It helps your team, escalates your gold, and is incredibly cost efficient.

No way.

It would take far too long and gold would be better suited for other items.

A top laner has a lane to defend and two conditions must be met to proc the TB: a roaming opportunity presents itself and the wave is pushed in. Those conditions won't happen frequently enough for the quest to be completed in an acceptable time.

A jungler who arrives in lane everytime the TB passive charges would disclose his position far too often to be effective particularly when the probability of a succesful gank is low. His time and gold would be better suited elsewhere (e.g. counter-invading or jungle clearing).

Lios AshenbladeJan 30, 20184 votes

my only gripe is that sometimes it takes 10 minutes to be able to start warding consistently

TigStripeJan 30, 20183 votes

Bring back quest passives. Make two tiers of quests - one for wards, one for passive.

Those items feel god awful as individual items now.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Bring back quest passives. Make two tiers of quests - one for wards, one for passive.

Those items feel god awful as individual items now.

this please [sg-janna]