can we give fighter/brusier items the crit item treatment?

lolipopevelynn·Apr 7, 2018·3 votes·362 views

and buff the fucking item costs on them? (an item always INTENDED for fighters not ADCs throughout its entire existence) . these have INSANE price tags, and the reason they do is so that ADCs dont abuse them...

can we PLEASE put "this is a MELEE ONLY item" on these things and decrease the price? while were at it, do the same for lethality items. this would make it easier to balance class/roles. ADCs have enough itemization anyway and im tired of seeing an entire class suffer because ADCs abuse items that were never intended for them.

or atleast, at the very least, give the role new items... its been ignored for far too long and it got absolutely SHAFTED out of a class update despite every other class getting one.

13 Comments

ModWulf HelhammerApr 7, 20184 votes

Guinsoo’s is a mixed damage item. Has been since its first rework. It’s not just intended for fighters.

Trinity Force is likewise also not a “fighter only” item.

Titanic Hydra is actually an item intended for tanks. Ravenous Hydra is the fighter equivalent (also both are melee only already so....)

Death’s Dance is not a fighter only item. Besides that, only a few ADC actually use the item.

Sterak’s Gage is already melee only.

There are ranged champs that use lethality as part of their core build, as they either spec as assassins, or they synergies better with them over crit items (Graves, Quinn, Jayce, MF)

So you weren’t right on anything.

lolipopevelynnApr 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b88dsyFL,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-07T20:30:31.020+0000)

Guinsoo’s is a mixed damage item. Has been since its first rework. It’s not just intended for fighters.

Trinity Force is likewise also not a “fighter only” item.

Titanic Hydra is actually an item intended for tanks. Ravenous Hydra is the fighter who equivalent (also both are melee only already so....)

Death’s Dance is not a fighter only item. Besides that, only a few ADC actually use the item.

Sterak’s Gage is already melee only.

There are ranged champs that use lethality as their part of their core build, as they either spec as assassins, or they synergies better with them over crit items (Graves, Quinn, Jayce, MF)

So you weren’t right on anything.

there are more fighters that have mixed ratios than they are ADCs. to top it off, there are more fighters that have onhit passives or 3 hit passives than there are ADCs.

The stats trinity force give are more attractive to fighters and they are built MOST on fighters. when i say "fighter items" i am talking about items that are built, by majority, by fighters.

Fighters want to be tanky and deal damage. they will never build something like raveneous because the item only gives sustain rather than defense. fighters want to get in a fight and STAY in a fight the entire time, hence the word "fighter". the defensive stats titantic gives offers this, and again the item is built by fighters the most. you are not going to see a orn, sion, amu, etc build ravenous. come on... melee Champions that build ravenous are champions like trynd who benefits the most from class canon items because of his ultimate, basically champions that dont need tank stats in order to survive fights. these champions use to be called "melee carries" in the likeness of old fiora and pre nerf master yi but they barely exist in the game anymore. Kled was the last and newest addition to a "melee carry" in that he does NOT need defensive stats to stay in a fight, so he builds class canon.

like i said already, a fighter wants to stay in a fight as long as possible. the sustain, offensive stats, and defensive damage reduction offers this. its basically the equivalent to Phantom dancer for ADCs. they do not need both. therefore it should be made into a melee only item.

graves, quinn, MF never needed lethality, they ABUSE lethality. jayce is a hybrid of a fighter and a ranged carry.

so you werent right on anything.

MorganFreemanBotApr 7, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b88dsyFL,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-07T20:30:31.020+0000)

Guinsoo’s is a mixed damage item. Has been since its first rework. It’s not just intended for fighters.

Trinity Force is likewise also not a “fighter only” item.

Titanic Hydra is actually an item intended for tanks. Ravenous Hydra is the fighter equivalent (also both are melee only already so....)

Death’s Dance is not a fighter only item. Besides that, only a few ADC actually use the item.

Sterak’s Gage is already melee only.

There are ranged champs that use lethality as part of their core build, as they either spec as assassins, or they synergies better with them over crit items (Graves, Quinn, Jayce, MF)

So you weren’t right on anything.

You're wrong on a few accounts here.

Tri force is, traditionally, a fighter item. For some god-forsaken reason Riot tossed it to ADCs when they reworked the class, but since then have reigned it back in to some extent. The item has always been designed, for fighters and functioned the best on them.

Note: Ezreal is a bit of an outlier here, but given his Q breaks the game every season and he's gotten numerous items completely overhauled / removed due to how he works, I think we can write him off as a fluke. Corki has also always like triforce, but he (like EZ) is an ability based adc.

Titanic was implemented for bruisers and fighters, not tanks. It is the spirtual successor to Atmog's Impaler, only implemented in a non-toxic way. Tanks do not care much about AA based damage, and it's not strong or popular on any tanks.

Death's Dance was introduced - and sold by Riot as - a tool for AD champions who function off of abilities rather than auto attacks, to give them sustain and tankiness without having to invest into sustain items which floundered with their kit and were AA reliant. Abilities rather than auto attacks. Huh, I wonder who that is? Oh right, it's bruisers and assassins.

Sterak's is melee only entirely because ADCs abused the shit out of it. It was nerfed from its initial incarnation because ADCs were building it due to how safe it made them, and when they finally got around to giving it some buffs they made sure to slap a melee-only tag on it so ADCs wouldn't pick it back up again.

saltranApr 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're wrong on a few accounts here.

Tri force is, traditionally, a fighter item. For some god-forsaken reason Riot tossed it to ADCs when they reworked the class, but since then have reigned it back in to some extent. The item has always been designed, for fighters and functioned the best on them.

Note: Ezreal is a bit of an outlier here, but given his Q breaks the game every season and he's gotten numerous items completely overhauled / removed due to how he works, I think we can write him off as a fluke. Corki has also always like triforce, but he (like EZ) is an ability based adc.

Titanic was implemented for bruisers and fighters, not tanks. It is the spirtual successor to Atmog's Impaler, only implemented in a non-toxic way. Tanks do not care much about AA based damage, and it's not strong or popular on any tanks.

Death's Dance was introduced - and sold by Riot as - a tool for AD champions who function off of abilities rather than auto attacks, to give them sustain and tankiness without having to invest into sustain items which floundered with their kit and were AA reliant. Abilities rather than auto attacks. Huh, I wonder who that is? Oh right, it's bruisers and assassins.

Sterak's is melee only entirely because ADCs abused the shit out of it. It was nerfed from its initial incarnation because ADCs were building it due to how safe it made them, and when they finally got around to giving it some buffs they made sure to slap a melee-only tag on it so ADCs wouldn't pick it back up again.

I mean, Trinity was a more diverse item that has been getting better and better for most bruisers as the seasons past:

Remember that it used to be build with item 3086 and not item 3101 , also item 3057 used to give AP and not CDR. And these changes has only benefited bruisers.

MorganFreemanBotApr 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I mean, Trinity was a more diverse item that has been getting better and better for most bruisers as the seasons past:

Remember that it used to be build with and not , also used to give AP and not CDR. And these changes has only benefited bruisers.

But that's part of the problem.

Triforce has always been insanely stat efficient with regards to the sheer number of stats, and had an immensely powerful proc. However a major part of the item's balance came from the jumble of stats. You got everything; and while most champions could use a decent number of the stats and a few most of them, pretty much no one (except Ezreal) wanted EVERYTHING that the item offered.

Triforce becoming more and more 'focused' has been a key balancing issue over the past few years. Notice that pretty much every bruiser / fighter / skirmisher who's become a balance concern has rushed triforce as their first item? That's not a coincidence.

Fisher No ChainsApr 7, 20182 votes

Or just nerf crit instead of buffing other items and keep our beloved powercreep going?

Dead flag bluesApr 7, 20182 votes

The almighty Jinx item 3748

Gotta punch people with these skinny fists

heroikcApr 7, 20182 votes

Two of those items are already melee only: item 3053 was changed to be melee only and item 3077 items were melee only for a very long time. Your other three items, I hardly see on ADCs; item 3078 is normally on Ezreal if he didn't go Iceborn and Kogmaw; item 3812 is meant for AD/physical damage casters, while most ADCs are auto-attack reliant (thus would prefer BOTRK, bloodthirster, etc)--Graves and maybe Quinn are probably the only serious "marksman" who'd use it; and item 3124 is comparatively niche to most items, being good on both fighters (particularly hybrid damage like Jax, Yi and Xin) and ranged carries (like Kog and Twitch).

warpenguin555Apr 7, 20181 votes

Or crit items can cost more. Making brusier items as cheap as zeal items doesn't solve anything, it just makes 2 classes with under priced items.

lolipopevelynnApr 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Or crit items can cost more. Making brusier items as cheap as zeal items doesn't solve anything, it just makes 2 classes with under priced items.

they dont need to be as cheap as zeal items, they just need to be more accessible. 3300-3500 for one item is insane. they nerfed rageblade to 3300 specifically because they want the item to be purchased at the 25-+ min mark. and it wasnt because it was abused by fighters, it was because kogma and varus abused the item and rushed it even AFTER they reworked it...

SithesisLordApr 7, 20181 votes

Problem is, anything cheaper than 3600 for Rageblade breaks it.

Heck, i´d argue that 3800 would be the ideal cost for it.

You buy an already good item for a huge cost, and it becomes one of the strongest items in the game when fully stacked.

Rageblade NEEDS to be expensive. If it stops being accessible to fighters, so be it, but making an item that already starts being over 100% gold efficient without passives cheap makes is very problematic.

Colton147Apr 7, 20181 votes

Urgot item 3070

lolipopevelynnApr 8, 20181 votes

Triforce has always been an time very attractive to fighters. the only ADCs who get them is corki and ezreal because of kit. saying its not a fighter item is only fooling yourself. its not "exclusive" to them because it doesnt have a melee only tag on the item, but the vast majority of roles that buy the item are fighters.

Anyway it seems my point has been missed so ill rephrase it. the items fighters like to build are too expensive. its that simple. Triforce is a 3700 item for fighters to build so they try to rush it in lane as fast as possible. problem with that is the build path sucks, so for the 15 mins you are building this item your laning is suffering.