@Riot why don't you revet champs

Shadow Hazard·Sep 5, 2016·36 votes·1,323 views

There have been many times in the past and I know that it will be a repeated mistake in the future, where not only did the changes not hit the mark but have actually made the champs worse (too strong, too weak, or simply not fun) but the community is forced to wait for months for a begrudgingly acceptance that you messed up and even still you will refuse to revert major changes while you say that you are figuring out how to fix the issue. Since it is a common theme for people to be "mains" or in the more extreme OTP you are really screwing over the people who in the case of champions would arguably know better than the riot team who shouldn't be having the luxury of having such a small champ focus. This is in a small part similar with items but we all know the enjoyment riot has of simply removing items from the game.

52 Comments

inplaneSep 6, 201618 votes

Reverting means that they're admitting they're wrong and they'll look like a bunch of incompetent designers. They'll ignore it and hope it goes away.

Of course, people don't let these things happen since Riot has dragged this shit on for too long. I for one have had enough of their questionable design choices. Though I don't completely blame them since the community isn't that much better with their vocal opinions, but Riot should know better when it comes to balance and reworks.

ZT XperimentorSep 6, 20161 votes

Pretty much spot on. http://www.pvpdatabase.com/?p=468

notmarkedSep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Reverting means that they're admitting they're wrong and they'll look like a bunch of incompetent designers. They'll ignore it and hope it goes away.

Of course, people don't let these things happen since Riot has dragged this shit on for too long. I for one have had enough of their questionable design choices. Though I don't completely blame them since the community isn't that much better with their vocal opinions, but Riot should know better when it comes to balance and reworks.

the answer to this thread

SpoofghoulSep 7, 20161 votes

Imho reverting doesnt make one look incompetent.

To spot and rectify ones own mistakes is what makes a person competent in the first place. The fact that they arent doing it makes them look incompetent!

inplaneSep 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Imho reverting doesnt make one look incompetent.

To spot and rectify ones own mistakes is what makes a person competent in the first place. The fact that they arent doing it makes them look incompetent!

Depends on how you see it I guess. Admitting to your own mistakes is a competent thing to do. But when you drag this shit on for over 3 years, something is up and most people aren't going to stick around to hear it.

S0kaXSep 5, 201611 votes

Bring back old Shen !

redfeenixSep 6, 20162 votes

Just remove his dog leash and his bright glowing spiritual totem. Thats all I needd

MordepoolSep 6, 20167 votes

Mordekaiser. You know my pain

GULAG 4 USep 6, 20161 votes

But still isn't he in a better spot than before?

MordepoolSep 6, 20166 votes

Are you asking the question because you dont know his previous state? The hope for most reworks is to fix inherent kit problems and unfun playstyles. Morde has been a feast or famine champion with. Zero fallback patterns. His new kit fixed no problems and added more problems. 1) he's Hybrid(dumbest idea ever) 2)movement speed omfg hes soooooooo slow 3)base stats ( he has 4-5 stats that are the within. The bottom 4 lowest of all champs) 4)his shield now scales with health bought (which makes him More feast or Famine) fix please (Hes more feast or famine still has zero fallback pattern. I can't help but feel if they treated him like a Rework and not like a botlane experiment some of his problems. Could have been fixed.

But hey we got a dragon that doesnt listen to commands at all

GULAG 4 USep 6, 20161 votes

It's not only the dragon. I recently hit M6 on him and the ghost towerdives nonstop and doesn't listen half of the time.

MordepoolSep 6, 20161 votes

The rework was a riot admitted failure. Hes not better off just a different taste of broken

GULAG 4 USep 6, 20161 votes

Well RIP. But if you had to rework morde, what would you change?

MordepoolSep 6, 20161 votes

Give me a bit. Could be a long post. Ill get back on my lunch break

GULAG 4 USep 6, 20161 votes

Ayt ok :)

MordepoolSep 8, 20161 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/nUp41AoE-people-ask-me

Sorry for the wait

GULAG 4 USep 8, 20161 votes

It's okay, thanks :)

MordepoolSep 8, 20161 votes

Let me know what you think in the otherthread please and thank you

DunkinNoobsSep 6, 20166 votes

Because champs get reworked because they're no longer acceptable in their current state. What would be the point of reverting a rework, even if it was bad? Yeah, you may not like current Morde, but it's not like old Morde was anywhere near acceptable.

inplaneSep 6, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Because champs get reworked because they're no longer acceptable in their current state. What would be the point of reverting a rework, even if it was bad? Yeah, you may not like current Morde, but it's not like old Morde was anywhere near acceptable.

When I looked back at how Old Karma played out, she would be very viable in this game's current Meta. Gold income was her problem and since she was an AP Support Skirmisher who relied on a decent gold flow, she was seen as a failure in all aspects. With the new Support items in play, she would thrive due to how powerful her entire kit was. Able to speed up/slow down as many people as she wanted to was insanely strong and her shield was absolutely invaluable once she had a few AP items. Her AOE skillshot heal would be crazy strong in skirmishes since it goes up with missing % HP.

So yeah. She wasn't unacceptable. She just wasn't popular and both Riot and the community knew that it would be okay to scrap her since it wouldn't cause a Yasuo fanbase-level of tantrums. In short, it's a popularity contest. Champions like Ahri , Yasuo , Vayne , Riven , and Annie probably aren't getting any huge changes anytime soon.

DunkinNoobsSep 6, 20164 votes

Champs don't get reworked for how viable they are. They get reworked for their gameplay. It just so happens, champions with problematic gameplay are often left intentionally weak until they can be reworked. Yorick immediately jumps to mind.

So guess why Riot has never left Yasuo weak for long? Here's a hint:

It just so happens, champions with problematic gameplay are often left intentionally weak until they can be reworked.

Champion SkinSep 6, 20162 votes

Karma mainly got reworked for being unpopular and thus people being unfamiliar about what Karma does and how to play with her on their team

inplaneSep 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6fEutyZ,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-06T16:14:34.715+0000)

Karma mainly got reworked for being unpopular and thus people being unfamiliar about what Karma does and how to play with her on their team

Basically. People even admitted that back in the day when the Archived forums were in use. The same time I found the huge potential in Old Mid Karma. That shit destroyed LB even when she had her silence.

Champion SkinSep 7, 20161 votes

It is quite a shame though as Karma had quite the interesting kit with opposites Q damage + R healing W slow + speed up (damage too though rather unreliable) E Shield + R damage Passive weaker/less health gave more AP

And not like it was toxic or anything like that as it was rather short ranged but she was pretty good at baiting with her % of missing health heal and powerful shield (and some bonus AP when on low HP)

inplaneSep 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Champs don't get reworked for how viable they are. They get reworked for their gameplay. It just so happens, champions with problematic gameplay are often left intentionally weak until they can be reworked. Yorick immediately jumps to mind.

So guess why Riot has never left Yasuo weak for long? Here's a hint:

No where did I say champs being reworked depends on how viable they are. Reread my post. I said that it was a popularity contest. It's how champs like Taliyah get absolutely destroyed and no one bats an eye except for her dedicated playerbase.

It's like Teemo not being reworked for the longest time despite having one of the most feast or famine playstyles. He's a fan favourite and he rakes in all the attention (Good and bad attention.) and all the dough. The only exceptions are Ryze and Katarina because they're unhealthy af and lets be honest, even their popularity is starting to fade when Ahri , Ezreal , Zed , Janna , and the likes are in the spotlight.

NineTailedMysticSep 6, 20161 votes

Except Ahri's, Annie's, and arguably Vayne's/Riven's kits are fine. All Annie needs is to lose the new Tibbers mechanic.

GULAG 4 USep 6, 20161 votes

That's bullshit. Rivers kit is not fine, vaynes kit screams cancer and Annie is stupid. Just because playing as ahri vs yasuo is hard it doesn't mean you have to be biased and not see how much cancer the other 3 give.

NineTailedMysticSep 6, 20161 votes

I mean, I find their kits fine for the most part, they could all use some minor tweaks though. Annie should lose the Tibbers enrage mechanic, Riven could use some higher base CDs on her Q/E so that way when she has some CDR she doesn't become completely uncatchable, Vayne could use some encouragement on buying more straight AD items then relying on her AD steriod from ult.

GULAG 4 USep 6, 20161 votes

And honestly you said in another thread about his windwall how Yasuo dances in it... if he does then he can't engage nor disengage, so what's the problem? Don't be in it with him really. At least it's possible to fight back against yasuo. it's not like riven you 3qs you, stuns, Shield thingy away. That's just pure bullshit. Annie's AOE point and click stun feels stupid to play against. Vayne's stealth, tumble, and condemn makes that certain champions can never touch her.

NineTailedMysticSep 6, 20161 votes

And honestly you said in another thread about his windwall how Yasuo dances in it... if he does then he can't engage nor disengage

I don't see how this is relevant to this discussion. He's saying how that certain champions won't ever get big kit changes because 'its a popularity contest.'

it's not like riven you 3qs you, stuns, Shield thingy away.

Riven needs set-up to 3rd Q which should be obvious if you pay attention, and she likely needs the damage from Q1/2 and passive stacks to 100-0 a standard top laner who isn't squishy on even gold. And I'm pretty sure the stun is .25s or at most .5s.

Annie's AOE point and click stun feels stupid to play against

I've never had a problem with Tibbers stun. In lane, buy a Negatron and then go along your core. She just lost all 100-0 pressure. Outside of late game, don't clump. She's just a Mage Malphite with a bear.

Vayne's stealth, tumble, and condemn makes that certain champions can never touch her.

Yet when they can touch her, she basically dies.

I don't know why we're arguing this since its completely subjective. I think their kits are fine for the most part, you don't. We have no way to change the, really.

GULAG 4 USep 6, 20161 votes

Your points are mostly right, but I'm not saying riven' level 3 100-0 is op. It's her trading patterns that are cancer. And vayne feels stupid to play against. And since it's subjective it's not worth talking over it as you said.

NineTailedMysticSep 6, 20162 votes

Maybe when there's a thread about objective balancing we can have a proper discussion.

GULAG 4 USep 6, 20161 votes

Agreed ^.^

ErockandrollSep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Because champs get reworked because they're no longer acceptable in their current state. What would be the point of reverting a rework, even if it was bad? Yeah, you may not like current Morde, but it's not like old Morde was anywhere near acceptable.

Riot for the most part, pretty much admitted they didn't put enough resources into the Juggernaut update. Garen and Darius pretty much did well, but Mord and Scarner were a bust. though Riot probably thinks the Reworks are still a step in the right direction. (Though they did kinda abandon the Duo Mord thing)

{quoted}

I would act like to see the old back, his new kit kinda doesn't make him an ADC and that was what he was meant to be.

The other problem with Reverting is a split player base. Cause I like the New Graves. I don't really care about him being an Attack damage carry, he's still a marksmen. He has a real shot gun mechanic. And it's completely awesome, and provides a unique kit.

DunkinNoobsSep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Riot for the most part, pretty much admitted they didn't put enough resources into the Juggernaut update. Garen and Darius pretty much did well, but Mord and Scarner were a bust. though Riot probably thinks the Reworks are still a step in the right direction. (Though they did kinda abandon the Duo Mord thing)

Riot didn't abandon bot lane Morde; The playerbase did. Most adcs resisted playing it even when it was completely broken, so who the hell is gonna play it once it's balanced? I do, for one. And Bot Morde is fine, provided you get a support that knows how to play with it. Doesn't do anything to stop all the whining and flaming though.

ErockandrollSep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Riot didn't abandon bot lane Morde; The playerbase did. Most adcs resisted playing it even when it was completely broken, so who the hell is gonna play it once it's balanced. I do, for one. And Bot Morde is fine, provided you get a support that knows how to play with it. Doesn't do anything to stop all the whining and flaming though.

Perhaps I'm being a bit cynical about it. But Riot did mention that they are having trouble balancing alternative Bot laners, with out doing some kind of itemization to support it. (yeah, not sure Relic Shield is enough) I'm also not sure if Riot has a good idea of what trade off a Melee bot laner should have for it's range. Not so much the XP, It also sucks that mords MS is more comparable to other bot laners and not to other Juggernauts.

DunkinNoobsSep 6, 20161 votes

Riot actually made a few changes to help out bot lane Morde after they nerfed him, but most people had stopped paying attention by then. For example: Riot changed Mordes Q and E in such a way that makes it so you want to max E first instead of Q, which is an absolute boon for Morde in the duo lane. They also changed Triforce to make it a much more attractive item for Morde, and it's now a fantastic first item in bot lane.

Count ZubatSep 6, 20161 votes

Garen and Darius pretty much did well, but Mord and Scarner were a bust.

Only Darius was a succesful rework, Garen is mixed bag, Skarner was just plain weird, but at least not broken and Mordekaiser was disaster. So far, I noticed that every class update had one horrible rework: in juggernaut, there was Morde, in marksman it was Kog'Maw and in MYMU Malzahar. We will see if assasins one holds the trend. Personally, I don't like this "let's mini rework few champs at once" thing Riot started.

CeexSettSep 6, 20161 votes

It's called a class update. It's much more enticing to see lots of new champion than just one people forget afeter 2 days.

Count ZubatSep 6, 20162 votes

Too bad some champions only suffer from it. While some of these reworks were pretty succesfull, eg. Darius, Caitlyn, Vladimir, Cassiopeia, everytime there are also champions who are getting gimped and destroyed by some stupid gimmicks because "every champion has to have his own niche" bullshit. Mordekaiser as melee bot laner carry, Kog'Maw as one trick pony press W to win gattling gun, Malzahar, who's all power has been transfered into voidling which die from single AOE spell... And while it wasn't a failed rework, but I'd also like to mention Vel'Koz, who's whole rework was pretty much just changing his ulti into huge true damage laser. I'd rather get full fleshed, VGU rework every 3-4 months instead of 10 reworks, of which 2-3 are decent, at least 1 is disaster and others are just meh and pretty much could have not happened.

Shadow HazardSep 6, 20161 votes

This was a very good way to put it. Yes some of them did well for the most part and only needed a numbers change, but from personal views as a more ex malz main (seems like ti is agreed on by the general malz community also from what I've seen) is that the malz rework was a total failure and it would have been better to simply give the ult a DFG or fizz ult like damage amp to old malz so that you are forced to do a full skill rotation to get a successful kill, then then the passive so that they have weaker damage but can spawn more frequently.

MordepoolSep 6, 20162 votes

The new rework fixed none of his problems, Added more and made him more feast or famine. Failed experiment still waiting for an actual rework

DunkinNoobsSep 6, 20162 votes

I'd say it did a rather good job of eliminating his E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E play pattern that he had before.

Champion SkinSep 6, 20161 votes

Oh if that is a bad play patter I wonder when they will remove that from Lux and Ziggs and Xerath who spam Q Q Q Q Q Q Q Q (E for Lux) Well I suppose they throw in the other abilities when going all in or to clear the wave

And A Real HieroSep 7, 20161 votes

Say what you want Velkoz did not need a rework.

DunkinNoobsSep 8, 20161 votes

After they tuned it a bit, I actually rather enjoyed the Vel'koz rework. You're right that he didn't particularly need one, but the rework did address the few problematic issues he had.

hhaavviikkSep 6, 20163 votes

because riot is never wrong, screwed up with champion rework? they will say they were right in doing so, screwed up champion Y by overbuffing their Q ability? nerf a different ability because riot is never wrong.