"kindred is supposed to take risk"

Shadow Hazard · 2016-09-09T16:00:19.331Z

What the hell are you smoking when you say that yet forget to consider you took everything away from kindred that would allow them to take any risk. Gave the champ one of the lowest base movespeed Took away kiting availability in the early game Took away self sustain and armor at the same time Repeatedly took away damage damage dealt to both champs and monsters with only a compensation buff during one of the nerfs Not saying that most weren't deserved, especially of the damage front, but the whole of the kindred mains community feel no respect for riot on their balancing choices for kindred when there have been many ideas will full number considerations to deal with kindreds balance in the past. Unlike other farm style marksman that leave the jungle as hard carries; twitch, kog, kayle, while kindred is extremely predictable and equally as squishy and both kayle, and kog are superior farm junglers or marksman junglers than the one made specifically for the jungle. Even when kindred was in the 50-51% WR before the last nerfs you decided to go through with nerfs but you won't nerf the tanky range, high sustain AD assassin that is graves, only recently did you decide to fix kog, and kayle has had kogs similar playstyle issues of get items, rip through teams maybe ult some points in between. This most recent league design stream really hammered home the fact that not only is it a hard truth that riot really doesn't know best despite what any of the airheaded red post would like to say, there clearly aren't well thought out plans happening all the time. Even if they want to say they are well educated professionals at what they do remember some of the dumbest things said in history were said be educated and respected individuals.

AstôlfoSep 9, 20168 votes

Without Hunts, they should have a decently strong early and an absolutely garbage mid/late/etc (aka, anything past early).

With Hunts, they should be able to have a late-game scaling hypercarry-esque curve, although not to the extent of full hypercarries (Kog'Maw for example).

Now, they shouldn't be so strong that it makes getting said Hunts ridiculously easy. But right now, their early is so horrendously garbage that if anything, they're more likely to be the ones to get invaded and killed while trying to do like, scuttle crab.

ErockandrollSep 9, 20168 votes

{quoted}

Now, they shouldn't be so strong that it makes getting said Hunts ridiculously easy. But right now, their early is so horrendously garbage that if anything, they're more likely to be the ones to get invaded and killed while trying to do like, scuttle crab.

I sense that their is going to be a Disconnect between yoloQ and the pro scene. At first, is sounds like her hunt has too much counterplay, simply by saying, "Kindred will likely try to get this camp" on your own side of the Jungle. You give Kindred too much dueling power, and it wouldn't matter, cause you would likely die without assistance from your team. (But kindred probably should maintain some amount of power to kite. or in other words retreat)

The kicker is, Kindred's hunts, can be thought of as a team responsibility. If I was say, the support, and my lane was pushed in my favor, I could roam and help Kindred secure her camp. (while zoning, or even killing anyone trying to stop us) Most YoloQers would probably say they didn't sign up for it. (Giving the expectation that kindred should be able to reach late game power, without the assistance of her team. But the Pro scene would likely play along with her gimmick and make sure she got fed.

AstôlfoSep 9, 20162 votes

Yeah, it's the issue with pro-tier vs the literally over 99.99% of the rest of the playerbase. Also the teams vs solos thing. Also, they should be able to generally kite and duel most of the enemy junglers in early and win, if the Kindred player is smart and they know what they're doing, provided enemy jungler doesn't just try to run away/burn Flash/call the laner(s) early. If the Kindred player is bad, they should lose pretty much every time unless the enemy jungler is even worse than they are. That would actually make for a skillful fight around each Hunt, and let them actually bait with it as intended (which is the whole reason they were left visible to enemy team in the first place) by tricking people into going for them when Kindred goes to gank elsewhere or goes to trap the enemy jungler.

Yes, the game should be balanced around the best because they actually know how to play and play against just about everything. It just really friggin sucks because almost no one else is at their level, meaning they all get shit on by the pro-tier balance changes (usually nerfs, or if they get buffs, they get gutted after the event).

ArakadiaSep 10, 20161 votes

Would they be healthier if they were late game?

AstôlfoSep 10, 20161 votes

They're supposed to be lategame, but unlike ADCs or the such who can literally just farm and get gold till lategame, Kindred's lategame is ass (like it should be) if they don't get enough Hunts. The decently strong early is supposed to help them actually have a chance to get Hunts earlier on so they can stay relevant long enough to actually keep scaling and not just do horrible and not be able to get anymore Hunts.

Shadow HazardSep 9, 20168 votes

Good quote analysis I saw recently "Kindred-from the best jungler in the game to unplayable garbage, kindred got nerfed too much to the point of no return. It pains me to say it as a former kindred main. I was at one point top 50 kindred world but after she got gutted I couldnt keep 45% winrate with her. She is an early game duelist and snowballer who is terrible at early duels. Her late game depends entirely on her early game but her early game is awful. She gets ojtdueled and outfarmed by nearly anyone and every team with half a brain will deny her the stacks she needs making her a nonfactor in the game. She was designed to be THE jungle marksman, but graves heavily outclasses her in every point in the game. Rip kindred."

MatezoideSep 9, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shadow Hazard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6sn0KlQF,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-09-09T16:55:31.430+0000)

Good quote analysis I saw recently "Kindred-from the best jungler in the game to unplayable garbage, kindred got nerfed too much to the point of no return. It pains me to say it as a former kindred main. I was at one point top 50 kindred world but after she got gutted I couldnt keep 45% winrate with her. She is an early game duelist and snowballer who is terrible at early duels. Her late game depends entirely on her early game but her early game is awful. She gets ojtdueled and outfarmed by nearly anyone and every team with half a brain will deny her the stacks she needs making her a nonfactor in the game. She was designed to be THE jungle marksman, but graves heavily outclasses her in every point in the game. Rip kindred."

Freelo abuser qq is the best.

"Booo Rito nerfed my freelo and now i cant win at all despite her mains keeping a 56% win-rate :((((("

AstôlfoSep 9, 20165 votes

People who know jackshit trying to talk about the very things that they're entirely clueless about is remarkably cute. Also just conveniently ignoring facts.

After they got gutted to the ground, most players including most of her mains abandoned them. Literally the only ones that stuck with her are some of the one-tricks, and beyond that, just the absolutely, ridiculously, extremely dedicated Kindred players, who are the kind of player to stick with a champion pretty much however hard they get neutered by nerfs. They have almost no "main" players.

And any champion should be at least playable with that much fucking experience.

MatezoideSep 9, 20166 votes

{quoted}

People who know jackshit trying to talk about the very things that they're entirely clueless about is remarkably cute. Also just conveniently ignoring facts.

After they got gutted to the ground, most players including most of her mains abandoned them. Literally the only ones that stuck with her are some of the one-tricks, and beyond that, just the absolutely, ridiculously, extremely dedicated Kindred players, who are the kind of player to stick with a champion pretty much however hard they get neutered by nerfs. They have almost no "main" players.

And any champion should be at least playable with that much fucking experience.

Gutted champions do not see that much success when played by people that know them, especially not in high elo.

Kindred is supposed to be hard to play, but rewarding for people that main them. Exactly as the numbers show.

You people are just angry because you have to actually know how to play Kindred to win now. The speech i replied to downright admited that Kindred was broken and started to whine about his inability to win, despite supposedely having experience with the champion, even though the numbers say otherwise.

{quoted}

Her mains have a 56% winrate that has nothing to do with the champion lol.

I have a 60% winrate on Master Yi using tier two runes. Is Yi freelo?

Oh boy comparing entire player bases to a single person, great argument dude. Yi is great at pub stomping btw.

Feel free to downvote because i am going against your Reddit-like circlejerk, Gameplay.

AstôlfoSep 9, 20164 votes

Gee maybe because even Kindred mains are absolute garbage until they get like over 125+ games in Ranked? And that's not even counting the hundreds it'd take in Normals to learn them in the first place. And literally the only reason Kindred's WR is that high at that point is because almost no one fucking plays them that much. That's like maybe a hundred or two people maximum. Out of several million who play League.

RalanrSep 10, 20161 votes

As someone who mains Sion, I don't see the problem in having a small playerbase.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 10, 20161 votes

How is someone maining a champ if they don't even have a hundred games on them?

Gee maybe because even Kindred freelo abuser are absolute garbage until they get like over 125+ games in Ranked?

Fixed that for you.

Considering plat+ is the top 10% and 3,5 million players are ranked. We have a playerbase of 350000 plat players. 2% are currently playing kindred so i'm not sure if only hundred people play her. Considerng that's only for plat players and there are 6 other ranks.

AstôlfoSep 10, 20161 votes

pffffft.

Um. You should re-read your own words. "plat+" "Considering that's only for plat players" No, Plat+ means all ranks Platinum and above. And no, I didn't mean just a few hundred play them. I meant there's probably only 1-2 hundred people who actually main them with enough dedication and experience to do anywhere near decent on them.

KetiSep 10, 20161 votes

nah, they're not that bad. As a high elo Kindred/Shyvana main, kindred is certainly in a hell of a lot better place than shyv is right now.

AstôlfoSep 10, 20162 votes

Well Shyv's pretty much only gotten nerfed when the only thing going for her really is her fast clears and then gank potential somewhat.

KetiSep 10, 20162 votes

well shyv still is the best abuser of titanic hydra in the game, able to go bloodrazor + Hydra into full tank and half health carries with 1Q for most of the game. She just sucks in high elo because she's kiteable at shit.

AstôlfoSep 10, 20161 votes

Yeah, unfortunately.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 10, 20161 votes

The fact is mains maintain a 58% winrate on her in plat+ That's a fact so matezoide is right. There are several harder champs where even mains only get to barely 50% winrate making it not worth playing those champs anymore. Matezoide is absolutely right, most players are just mad they can't 1v5 carry the game anymore with kindred. When dedicated players do fine than the OP of the post can't be a main otherwise he wouldn't complain that hard. You simply can't pick kindred in any comp against any jungler anymore which is a GOOD thing. Kindred being fotm was one of the most toxic experiences i ever had. This "marksman" will delete you in a few basic attacks if at all. If ganking a lane at lvl 3 and 100-0 the enemy with three AAs for the E procc isn't toxic i don't know either. Same with her jumping around every 2 seconds endlessly kiting anyone with a reliable gapcloser WHILE doing dmg. A few tweaks to help the early game maybe higher base stats or something as compensation for her sustain loss but another than that riot should be very careful if they want to buff that champ again. You say they have no "main" players still kindred is at 2% playrate currently. It's the lower end of the roster but not the kind of "only 10 players are playing her".

AstôlfoSep 10, 20162 votes

You could never 1v5 carry the game as Kindred in the first place.

And no, if they killed you in a few basic attacks, they were ridiculously fed/stacked.

And no, they could not 100-0 the enemy with just E+3 AAs outside of that time when the E was bugged.

Which is why the Q CD decrease when W was up got changed to 4-2 seconds? And now they do practically no damage at all without being ridiculously fed unless the enemy player is just downright blitheringly stupid.

Um, yeah, because playing a champion automatically makes you a main.

CaptnJakSparrowSep 9, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Freelo abuser qq is the best.

"Booo Rito nerfed my freelo and now i cant win at all despite her mains keeping a 56% win-rate :((((("

Her mains have a 56% winrate that has nothing to do with the champion lol.

I have a 60% winrate on Master Yi using tier two runes. Is Yi freelo?

Unstoppable MonkSep 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Her mains have a 56% winrate that has nothing to do with the champion lol.

I have a 60% winrate on Master Yi using tier two runes. Is Yi freelo?

Eh, sated meta Yi, buffed Xin, and buffed Kog was pretty freeloey.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 10, 20161 votes

Currently you have 100% wnrate on master yi. And 77 on kindred. No more games played on this account. If you tell us somethign like that make sure to use your real account so we can check what you claim. So far it indeed looks like you just abused YI sated freelo and kindred.

CaptnJakSparrowSep 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Currently you have 100% wnrate on master yi. And 77 on kindred. No more games played on this account. If you tell us somethign like that make sure to use your real account so we can check what you claim. So far it indeed looks like you just abused YI sated freelo and kindred.

http://puu.sh/r6Uu4/c0d86f015d.jpg

Guess I'm just a filthy Kat abuser now.

http://puu.sh/r6UyS/9fe1442764.jpg

Oh look, 61% ((Was 64 until gg challenger smurfs.))

http://puu.sh/r6UEg/91ed8dda45.jpg

Oh look, yet another account.

morris1Sep 9, 20163 votes

Can you keep these bs arguments out of gameplay & balance? Kindred is without doubt a terrible jungler at the moment, saying they could use some buffs doesn't mean they want a broken champion, they want to be able to even play the champion in a state where they aren't completely irrelevant at all stages of the game.

KetiSep 10, 20163 votes

Kindred isn't terrible, simply below average. definitely garbage for the bottom 95% of players though. Only at high elo does she start to become strong.

-Kindred main

GayFluffyUnicornSep 10, 20161 votes

Sorry but kindreds 15%+ playrate dominating the fucking game isn'tthat long ago. Kindred jungle, kindred mid, kindred adc, kindred top. Many players still get vietnam flashbacks thanks to this champion so maybe try to show some empathy that people are worried when they hear kindred should get buffs

AstôlfoSep 10, 20161 votes

No, they should get with the times and quit crying. Same thing with Kassadin/Zed/etc.

DepártSep 9, 20161 votes

We almost have enough gutted champions to start a Club, With Kalista, Azir and Kindred being the officers of it.

TyrekGoldenspearSep 9, 20162 votes

Don't forget Aatrox

KetiSep 10, 20164 votes

As a current top 100 kindred, and rank 1 at the end of last season, I strongly disagree. Kindred isn't very good, but can still win many early duel scenarios and can safely get to a respectable mark count + bloodrazor is REALLY good on her. her main struggle is the fact that farming junglers are quite non-meta right now.

MatezoideSep 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

As a current top 100 kindred, and rank 1 at the end of last season, I strongly disagree. Kindred isn't very good, but can still win many early duel scenarios and can safely get to a respectable mark count + bloodrazor is REALLY good on her. her main struggle is the fact that farming junglers are quite non-meta right now.

Glad to hear someone that actually plays Kindred giving his opnion.

I definetly didnt mean to say that Kindred is great or anything, and they could use some minor help, sure, but there are plenty of champions in far dire need of buffs at this point.

But as i said, Kindred is a rewarding champion for people that decided to stick with them. It just doesnt seem that people want to accept that high skill-cap/ceiling champions are going to have lower win-rates in general.

Baron PerenoldeSep 10, 20162 votes

Honestly if these "mains" actually stuck with their champ instead of constantly hopping from top tier to top tier every month, they might not have these kind of issues. Good riddance to the old overpowered Kindred, and good riddance to the freelo abusers who want them broken again. Small buffs are in order but not until other junglers get some help imo.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 10, 20161 votes

Exactly. The same issue we have with these yasuo "mains" complaining that people strongly dislike this champ. If they were mains they would still play them but they simple are freelo abusers. You would be surprised how many players only rank up by playing fotm-broken champs.

RequiemsfireSep 10, 20162 votes

Yeah, since the pre-season they've changed a lot of how exp and gold works in the jungle so that many junglers can bounce back after losing certain camps easily rather than being completely being pushed behind early on by champions like Nidalee unless they really push for spending a lot of time in the jungle where sustain, fast clearing, mobile champions still excel (such the reason they removed Kindred sustain) and why Nidalee Graves will probably be nerfed again in the future.

Aatrox Mid 1v5Sep 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Not to bash Kindred (the nerfs hurt them a lot) but I find it confusing for there to be much risk when (and not anymore) they more than likely have a stronger early game than the enemy jungler.

Is Kindred meant to be a late or early game champion?

the problem with them is the stacking passive. there is no indefinite amount on how much damage they will do, which seperates the good players from the bad by a lot. eventually they will just become like reksai or khalista who are only good in pro plays IMO and the removal of devourer doesnt help where she is right now

"kindred is supposed to take risk"

68 Comments

More from Gameplay

More by Shadow Hazard