What exactly is yasuo's weakness supposed to be?

Shadow Hazard·Sep 7, 2016·74 votes·6,808 views

Other than the fact that he is melee

EDIT I know this may look like another QQ thread but I meant to ask this as the goal of what is the the weakness that should be targeted at being increased, since many times in the past riot made nerfs to champs specifically targeted at increasing the weakness of their weakness (for example with the kindred nerfs to the armor+sustain was meant to exaggerate the weakness of marksman supposed to be very squishy). If yas has some more defined weakness from a mechanical/design view of the kit there would be lesser need for him to be either way too strong or way too weak like has been done with too many champs in the past.

190 Comments

RalanrSep 7, 201644 votes

Basically he's supposed to be very squishy and his lack of in built sustain makes it so that you can easily punish him for mistakes.

His tank/bruiser build removed this weakness without really losing any of his strengths. Hence why it is a problem and is being nerfed.

Shadow HazardSep 7, 20162 votes

I was recently watching a random ranked, is what make be think of that question. Because something I have noticed is still common in yas builds is trinity force, but with the extra ult auto bug not seeing a fix on the pbe it will simply be a slight switch of going TF and having a nuke of damage that really shouldn't be there. On top of fixing that bug wouldn't it be better to make his passive shield work like rivens and scale off of AD.

RalanrSep 7, 20163 votes

His shield breaks with 1 hit regardless. Having it scale with AD would accomplish nothing and might actually make him worse.

Yes there is an auto bug. It is being fixed.

Personally I don't think Yas should be building TF. I don't think anyone that doesn't use mana should really have TF in their primary builds. I honestly think TF is a problem and needs nerfs.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 7, 20166 votes

{quoted}

His shield breaks with 1 hit regardless. Having it scale with AD would accomplish nothing and might actually make him worse.

Yes there is an auto bug. It is being fixed.

Personally I don't think Yas should be building TF. I don't think anyone that doesn't use mana should really have TF in their primary builds. I honestly think TF is a problem and needs nerfs.

they dont build item 3078 for mana, it dont give really all that much mana so for champs that need mana it isnt really much of a help there. they get for the attack speed and cdr and sheen proc. so lets say they rework sheen and take away the mana part of it so it builds out something else besides mana, i mean they already took away the ap of it. then it would be more viable to build on all champs as long as they can proc the sheen. so you could take a champ like Riven who dont use mana and if sheen/tri force didnt have the mana build in it she would get it for the procs on all of her abilities and the cdr. which would directly buff mana less champs that cast.

JbelsSep 7, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0c0Bxm8e,comment-id=0002000000010001,timestamp=2016-09-07T15:59:09.216+0000)

they dont build for mana, it dont give really all that much mana so for champs that need mana it isnt really much of a help there. they get for the attack speed and cdr and sheen proc. so lets say they rework sheen and take away the mana part of it so it builds out something else besides mana, i mean they already took away the ap of it. then it would be more viable to build on all champs as long as they can proc the sheen. so you could take a champ like Riven who dont use mana and if sheen/tri force didnt have the mana build in it she would get it for the procs on all of her abilities and the cdr. which would directly buff mana less champs that cast.

I know what you're getting at with Riven, but this would only affect her at the lower skill spectrum. The skill ceiling players would find Tforce procs useless, as they get off all of their damage faster than the sheen proc cooldown can come on line. She would still prefer Armor penetration probably more than Tforce

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 7, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=NMF Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0c0Bxm8e,comment-id=00020000000100010000,timestamp=2016-09-07T16:28:23.145+0000)

I know what you're getting at with Riven, but this would only affect her at the lower skill spectrum. The skill ceiling players would find Tforce procs useless, as they get off all of their damage faster than the sheen proc cooldown can come on line. She would still prefer Armor penetration probably more than Tforce

well if she can get 20% cd in one item that gives her bonus damage when she uses her Q auto Q auto Q combo along with thunderlords decree that is alot of burst with a 1.5 sec cool down on the proc of sheen . and it scales with bonus ad which riven also scales with and her passive gives her more ad for each time an ability is cast . to be honest i dont know why i havent seen it yet.

and typically a riven plays with a 12-18-0 set up taking the cdr mastery to get her cap to 45% giving her flat 5% at lvl 1 then take cdr runes of 7.5% that is 13% cdr lvl 1 then you add in triforce she gets 33% cdr with one item. and add one more item for 10% more cdr like item 3158 she would have 43% cdr in two items. the attack speed would help with her autos between abilities. the ms makes her faster then what she was. if you wanted to run mr blues instead of cdr blues if vs a ap match up you could still get 45% cdr with item 3078 item 3071 with two items. and give her alot of hp and movement speed. and she can still get item 3111 for the cc she is normally focused with.

NuparuSep 7, 20164 votes

The answer is cause Cleaver already amps that damage, so it's totally unnecessary to have Triforce anyways. Cleaver+Ghostblade also has really good synergy with her kit, so yeah.
Almost any Riven player, even into AP matchups, will take 10% CDR (1 quint + all blues). Triforce would overkill since she only needs 10% more to get 45% CDR. Also, she doesn't need MR blues since her shield is immensely helpful in trades and Hexdrinker is only 1300.
It has no intrinistic synergy with her play pattern. When she's ahead, Triforce would only curb her snowball since it doesn't add to her burst. When she's behind, she'd be better off building Cleaver+Ghostblade anyways since she scales extremely well with AD and Armor Penetration, plus those items give her 30% CDR which will cap her with runes.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 7, 201618 votes

Yeah but he isn't squishy at all. Good base health/resistances+shield. If you want someone squishy look at leblanc.

RalanrSep 7, 201627 votes

He's pretty squishy compared to fighters.

SSShutTheDuckUpSep 7, 20162 votes

He is squishy, but not THAT squishy. Compare him to Zyra, Brand or Teemo. He is AD, so he is supposed to build lifeteal, he has a passive shield. I am not saying he is tanky. He is supposed to be squishy, but not VERY squishy.

AceBlackSep 7, 20162 votes

All three of those champions are ranged. And fight at range.

SSShutTheDuckUpSep 7, 20161 votes

I am not saying that he should be squishier than Zyra. I am just saying, that he is intended to have a bit of defense.

My Waifu VanillaSep 8, 20164 votes

A better comparison would be something like Master Yi who HAS to fight in melee in order to do anything and has invincibility to compensate for it and a %DR channel. Both are relatively squishy champions who have to pretty much go into melee of 5 people and hope to survive. That being said, Yasuo as a champion is designed to not need 6 damage items to be relevant like an ADC. The double crit passive means he only needs IE+"insert Zeal item here" to reach max crit and usually ends up with a BT or something for sustain, that is fine since if he was REQUIRED to build glass cannon he would simply pop the second any teamfight started. What is not fine is when he instead of going.....4+2 or 5+1 on damage+bulk items he is going this 1.5+4.5 thing with the Frozen Force and still doing......decent damage considering he hasn't built a whole lot.

I do feel like this is an overall design problem with the current item system and thus cannot be fixed at this time since simply nerfing Yasuo is like putting a Hello Kitty Band-Aid on a severed arm and instead needs the balance team to look at "bruiser itemization" as a whole and what defines it since right now there are quite a few people running around with Cleaver/Trinity+Mallet/Titanic into straight tank and doing quite a bit of damage all things considered.

Malicious MetalSep 7, 201619 votes

Meanwhile Mordekaiser with the shittiest Base hp pool, base armor and MS of ANY fighter.

Papa SlothySep 7, 20162 votes

tho he does have that sexy passive and fantastic rylais synergy

he needs more health

Malicious MetalSep 7, 20168 votes

A mere 100-200 more would be enough, putting him at about 1900 base hp.

I just feel it's overkill to give him both the lowest MS, lowest hp pool AND one of the lowest base armor^^'

EROTIC RAID BOSSSep 8, 20165 votes

his win rate is 52% so apparently its not overkill

Odyssey85Sep 8, 20162 votes

It's always been the most bothering element to Morde's stats and design concept that, a champion who is a wraith in a suit of armor, has the lowest base armor, talk about the irony, amirite? I'll leave now

Btw the highest base armor stat belongs to Maokai , just thought that was funny as well

ModCaptainMårvelousSep 7, 20164 votes

LeBlanc isn't melee and has dashes without requiring enemy champions/minions/monsters.

Yasuo's resistances also aren't that great because he gains 0 MR per level. His shield is decent but only 500 HP for 1 second. Basically any sustained damage will easily chew through/go past the shield.

DengedenSep 7, 201620 votes

You're doing it wrong, don't ask such straightforward questions. A Yasuo main will easily list multiple weaknesses the champion has. You're supposed to phrase the question in a way that questions or insults Riot's integrity and/or good will.
Being melee is a huge weakness, unfortunately.
From the way I understand it, his main weakness is that Yasuo lacks burst and instead thrives on winning trades with his shield, windwall and fancy feet and then going for extended fights with Q + AAs (and ult). Ever since his nerfs after he dominated S4 summer split (wasn't it), he needs some kind of lead to pull this off.

RalanrSep 7, 20169 votes

{quoted}

You're doing it wrong, don't ask such straightforward questions. A Yasuo main will easily list multiple weaknesses the champion has. You're supposed to phrase the question in a way that questions or insults Riot's integrity and/or good will.

Being melee is a huge weakness, unfortunately.

From the way I understand it, his main weakness is that Yasuo lacks burst and instead thrives on winning trades with his shield, windwall and fancy feet and then going for extended fights with Q + AAs (and ult). Ever since his nerfs after he dominated S4 summer split (wasn't it), he needs some kind of lead to pull this off.

Are Crits not considered burst? Because they feel pretty fucking bursty.

Sorry but when someone gives me a crit building champion and tells me they lack burst, I get the impression of, "So by late game they have no weakness in damage"

Stars ShaperSep 7, 20164 votes

His critical strikes deal 90% damage, reduced to 75% damage on Steel Tempest. Also you should consider that even not being tank build Yasuo needs a couple of defensive items (at least) to survive his lack of inbuilt sustain while other melee carries can go full damage items.

JbelsSep 7, 201615 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0c0Bxm8e,comment-id=000c00000000,timestamp=2016-09-07T16:26:40.490+0000)

His critical strikes deal 90% damage, reduced to 75% damage on Steel Tempest. Also you should consider that even not being tank build Yasuo needs a couple of defensive items (at least) to survive his lack of inbuilt sustain while other melee carries can go full damage items.

let's consider what 10% means. let's say Yas crits for 600 on every AA at 100% crit chance. 10% shaved off of that is 60, for a total of 540 damage. You're losing a whopping 60 damage from that passive, which is less damage than a support can do in an AA by that point in the game.

Now let's consider the 75% on Q. Each Q has a 100 base damage bonus to it to go along with the 100% AD scaling of it, so assuming it's at rank 5, the crit damage without the removal would be 800 if we still assume that regular Auto attacks are doing 600 each. 25% of the crit damage would be 200 damage, so 600. Your Q does as much damage as a normal auto would do without that 10% reduction. Let's just sit here and appreciate how none of this math means anything when it comes to Yasuo killing a squishy compared to any assassin besides him doing it. He will kill them just as fast, regardless of these reductions. The reductions are merely there so Yasuo can't actually burst and kill tanks in the late game.

JustMyBassCannonSep 7, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=NMF Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0c0Bxm8e,comment-id=000c000000000001,timestamp=2016-09-07T16:37:58.336+0000)

let's consider what 10% means. let's say Yas crits for 600 on every AA at 100% crit chance. 10% shaved off of that is 60, for a total of 540 damage. You're losing a whopping 60 damage from that passive, which is less damage than a support can do in an AA by that point in the game.

Uhh, Jbels, you do remember that champion base statistics has the lowest AD in the 90s, right? And the average champion starts in the 50s, most of the lower numbers being Marksmen due to their kit scaling.

I know, it's an entirely moot point to correct, but it still irked me.

Now let's consider the 75% on Q. Each Q has a 100 base damage bonus to it to go along with the 100% AD scaling of it, so assuming it's at rank 5, the crit damage without the removal would be 800 if we still assume that regular Auto attacks are doing 600 each. 25% of the crit damage would be 200 damage, so 600. Your Q does as much damage as a normal auto would do without that 10% reduction. Let's just sit here and appreciate how none of this math means anything when it comes to Yasuo killing a squishy compared to any assassin besides him doing it. He will kill them just as fast, regardless of these reductions. The reductions are merely there so Yasuo can't actually burst and kill tanks in the late game.

I've done the math enough times, given a few different builds for testing, and in the long run, Yasuo's damage output comes out a bit lower than other melee carries like Master Yi and Fiora. And it's specifically because of that crit damage reduction.

What other champs lose in 100% crit chance, they gain in AS/AD steroids and other bonuses that more than make up the difference. That damage reduction seriously is what keeps his damage output in the neighborhood of melee carry DPS output.

LimrickSep 7, 20163 votes

Oh wow, he does less damage than a MASTER YI, that's incredible, he really needs buffs.

Kappa

JustMyBassCannonSep 7, 20168 votes

Aaand I said that where?

Oh, right, I didn't. You're either searching for a straw man or just really want to agitate someone.

LimrickSep 7, 20165 votes

Yasuo's damage output comes out a bit lower than other melee carries like Master Yi

Do you actually have downs, or what? I even put a kappa so dumbasses like you would realize it was sarcastic.

JustMyBassCannonSep 7, 20163 votes

Again, you're just looking for a fight over something nobody said.

But keep enjoying chasing a field of straw men, I'm sure you need the exercise.

LimrickSep 7, 20168 votes

Holy fuck, do you actually know what sarcasm is? I made a sarcastic statement and you responded to it, not even understanding the statement, then accuse me of starting a fight.

JustMyBassCannonSep 7, 20162 votes

The purpose of your sarcastic comment implied that you wanted to chase scarecrows in a field, fat man. If that was not your intent, you lack the capacity to claim nuance in language when you fail to get your meaning across.

TL;DR, I got your sarcasm, I'm just saying you're shit at communicating anything else.

LimrickSep 7, 20167 votes

Using big words is the epitome of triggered. You didn't get the sarcasm, so now you're just mad. And given that it was just that, a sarcastic comment, you had no reason to even respond if you knew it was sarcastic. The fact is that you either did not know it was sarcasm, in which case you are starting an argument for no reason at all; or you knew it was sarcasm, and went for it anyways, which makes you IMMATURE. But yeah, it's my bad that you got triggered by a comment on the internet.

JustMyBassCannonSep 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Using big words is the epitome of triggered.

I didn't know that enjoying the depth of language conveyed rage, rather than the fact that I just like long words.

You didn't get the sarcasm, so now you're just mad.

No, not really. Amused as hell, definitely, but you'd have to try a lot harder than being shit at language to make me angry.

And given that it was just that, a sarcastic comment, you had no reason to even respond if you knew it was sarcastic.

I like to respond, doesn't matter if I have a reason.

The fact is that you either did not know it was sarcasm, in which case you are starting an argument for no reason at all; or you knew it was sarcasm, and went for it anyways, which makes you IMMATURE.

The second one, because while you might have qualms about your own immaturity, I can live with mine. I'm not such a fucking puckered anus that I have to worry about how "mature" I appear on a forum with fuckwits like you.

But yeah, it's my bad that you got triggered by a comment on the internet.

This isn't Tumblr, you might need to tryhard somewhere else to "trigger" someone.

Chromatic EagleSep 8, 20164 votes

Everywhere is tumblr. We are tumblr.

WacingTheFindSep 7, 20163 votes

And lack of MR per lvl.

HongChongDongSep 7, 201617 votes

Yasuo works on being able to out maneuver his opponent but when he's left with no where to dash to such as when he's escaping he gets completely destroyed by alot of different champions.

PokladnicaZlaSep 7, 20167 votes

Isn't one of the highest MS in the game combined with a passive sheild and widnwall enough to negate those kind of situations?

WolfChasesSep 7, 201610 votes

Ban phase. No srsly I know that joke is old as hell but it's true. The best way to get rid of a cancer is to stop it before it evolves so ban Yasuo and enjoy a healthy game.

JustMyBassCannonSep 7, 201610 votes

"The Weakness" Well, the only problem I have with that question is how it's phrased, and that's basically not a problem because anyone with a working brain will know what you mean by asking this. It's not like every champion has one, hard-set, hard-counter weakness; rather, they tend to have a collection of strengths that come with their own weaknesses.

Yasuo has a couple of solid defense tools, but one of them goes away the second that combat starts, and the other doesn't block near as many things as people would have you believe. Both of them take a significant amount of time to re-prep once they've been used, since people generally max W last and his shield passive requires an average 10 seconds of running/dashing around to refresh. Even in the worst late-game scenario, you still have at least a 5-second window for getting past those defenses, which is a good bit of time for retaliation.

Early game, just make sure to poke that shield if you have any way to do it without going into a full engagement.

Early on, his DPS isn't really that spectacular; it relies on him landing his Qs (it's surprising how well kiting works against a melee) and most players tend to rely on him getting in bursts of E-Q damage and running away from retaliation. Position yourself so he'd have to overextend to reach you. Standing to the side of the minion wave and pulling him away severely cuts down his mobility.

inb4 "CC is everyone's weakness," Yasuo's on the list of supremely susceptible to CC champions. The kind of champion where a stun, or even a lengthy slow, can spell death in seconds. If you have it, save your CC, time it right, it will make a huge difference. Or if you happen to have really spammy CC, use that to zone him harshly.

Speaking of which, Stars Shaper mentioned this as well, but Yasuo relies on being able to control the lane. If he can gain control early game, he can get his lead and become a serious wrecking ball like any carry. Hopefully, your choice of laning opponent is capable of zoning as well, because you're going to need to out-control the lane.

And, seriously, dodge those Qs. Sure, you can't dodge 100% of skill shots, but every dodge makes a difference.

The most important thing to remember when trying to learn a champion's weaknesses is to play the champion for yourself. Advice can help, but only so much. When you actually play as a champion, you learn how their kit works, and you start learning how people fight against them. It might take more time, but it definitely solidifies your understanding of champions.

Stars ShaperSep 7, 20168 votes

Control is his weakness.

All of his kit relies on him having the control of the lane and you can disrupt it by making his shield going to waste, be careful about your minions positions (so that you know where he can and can't go) and lastly his windwall if you have anything stoppable. You just have to not let him set the fights and take him in counter time. He is a really phsycological character, different characters have different ways to deal with him.

S0kaXSep 7, 20167 votes

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/54532137.jpg

SpookyNeedleSep 7, 20167 votes

Play someone who can outduel him, dodge Q's

TequilaZombieSep 7, 20162 votes

Any stat check champion craps on Yasuo.

CasterGilgameshSep 8, 20161 votes

but stat check champions are broken because they are stat check meaning yasuo is only weak to out right broken champions...

TequilaZombieSep 8, 20162 votes

No, stat check are boring and linear, but not necessarily overpowered.

Yasuo depends on dodging and blocking to succeed, those champions deny him that by being virtually fail proof.

MatthewRT2Sep 7, 20165 votes

Not having a key.

ModCaptainMårvelousSep 7, 20164 votes

Yasuo has no MR per level.
Yasuo's shield can easily be broken in-lane with a single auto.
Yasuo's movement is entirely reliant on enemies/minions.
Windwall has a long cooldown comparative to other defensive skills.
Top-lane Yasuo will get his skull fractured by lane bullies.
Semi-item Reliant.

CrazFight Sep 7, 20163 votes

He only controls the wind not fire earth nor water. So there's that.

crippler38Sep 7, 20163 votes

anyone with point and click cc like fiddlesticks basically says 'nope'

Off Meta EvanSep 7, 20163 votes

yasuo's kit is designed around dodging skill shots and negating mages from being able to throw out skill shots at him. so he has an exceptionally hard time against champions that don't have any and have higher base stats in general like Renekton Garen MonkeyKing that can just burst him down. however with item changes he's become WAY better at dealing with this due to item 3078 and item 3046 just being really strong on him. its not yasuo's kit thats the problem imo, its just the way his kit interacts with certain items. which thankfully they're nerfing his ult so he only gets pen with crits, so you HAVE to build him more damage rather than tanky.