Sejuani is going to need nerfs after this next patch drops

thinking man·Mar 8, 2015·2 votes·1,687 views

She is already incredibly strong and borderline broken with her being incredibly good in both solo queue and competitive and these jungle changes are going to throw her hard over the edge.

24 Comments

IcyPepperMar 8, 20156 votes

Her clear speed isn't great.

Her ultimate is a skillshot.

Her main form of damage outside her ult is DoT, and her E typically requires her W (unless you autoattack an entire team, which is unlikely).

Her q doesn't deal a lot of damage, especially considering that if you build a substantial amount of AP on Sejuani, you're doing it wrong.

She's a good team-player rather than carry, but that doesn't make her overpowered. Just because someone can support a team and not actually be the support (while dealing some damage too) doesn't make them necessarily overpowered.

thinking manMar 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Her clear speed isn't great.

Her ultimate is a skillshot.

Her main form of damage outside her ult is DoT, and her E typically requires her W (unless you autoattack an entire team, which is unlikely).

Her q doesn't deal a lot of damage, especially considering that if you build a substantial amount of AP on Sejuani, you're doing it wrong.

She's a good team-player rather than carry, but that doesn't make her overpowered. Just because someone can support a team and not actually be the support (while dealing some damage too) doesn't make them necessarily overpowered.

"Hey guys! We need to give them a super good clear and a super good dueling item all in one! They already scale really well!"

IcyPepperMar 8, 20153 votes

Here's the thing you're missing:

Sejuani (and other tanks) require an item passive to boost their clear speed, while certain champions like and LeeSin do just fine with raw stats.

Most junglers have some form of balance between clear speed, gank capability, and counterjungling. Sejuani, for example, has slow-moderate clear speed without sunfire's cape, her pre-6 ganks are decent and her post-6 ganks are some of the best (but conditional on landing that skillshot with a high cooldown). Her counterjungling is difficult early because her early game isn't great, but she becomes much better at contesting 1v1 later on.

Udyr, for example as well, has one of the best clear speeds, but his ganks fall short if the enemy is warding properly. His counterjungling is decent, as he can deny camps pretty safely and ward the enemy jungle.

Sejuani has clear strengths and weaknesses.

Also responding with sarcasm instead of a proper counterargument (because let's face it, it's not like the top-tier junglers won't benefit from this item if they chose to buy it, I know Vi could with the %hp deal) really lessens the impact. Just a tip.

thinking manMar 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing you're missing:

Sejuani (and other tanks) require an item passive to boost their clear speed, while certain champions like and do just fine with raw stats.

Most junglers have some form of balance between clear speed, gank capability, and counterjungling. Sejuani, for example, has slow-moderate clear speed without sunfire's cape, her pre-6 ganks are decent and her post-6 ganks are some of the best (but conditional on landing that skillshot with a high cooldown). Her counterjungling is difficult early because her early game isn't great, but she becomes much better at contesting 1v1 later on.

Udyr, for example as well, has one of the best clear speeds, but his ganks fall short if the enemy is warding properly. His counterjungling is decent, as he can deny camps pretty safely and ward the enemy jungle.

Sejuani has clear strengths and weaknesses.

Also responding with sarcasm instead of a proper counterargument (because let's face it, it's not like the top-tier junglers won't benefit from this item if they chose to buy it, I know Vi could with the %hp deal) really lessens the impact. Just a tip.

First, calling something a skillshot doesn't necessarily mean that it's difficult to land otherwise you wouldn't hate Lee so much.

Second, a lot of junglers get beat up in the jungle early. The only junglers that I know of that can do a full clear without backing at any point before killing every single camp once are Udyr and Nunu. Saying that a champion has a bad early clear is pretty moot when every champion has a hard time on their first clear except for one or two clear outliers. Finally, Even if a champion has strengths and weaknesses, Lee Sin still has the weakness of being one of the worst duelists for being a bruiser, for example.

Also the reason why none of the current FOTM junglers will not buy Cinderhulk is because they don't have enough reason to just build full tank. All of the current AD junglers play as pseudo-assassins where they just try to deal tons of damage to important targets. Vi will still like building damage too much to bother buying Cinderhulk, and their bursty nature means that they don't want to just sit in there hitting stuff forever. Sunfire is currently only good on champions with zero offensive scaling that need damage. There's a reason why it's only bought on Shen/Rammus/Sej/Naut since they all do so well with full tank. Cinderhulk will be no different, it will only be a stronger version of Sunfire.

IcyPepperMar 8, 20152 votes

First, calling something a skillshot doesn't necessarily mean that it's difficult to land otherwise you wouldn't hate Lee so much.

Never said I hated Lee Sin. He's just a different type of jungler than Sejuani, and benefits from raw stats (as opposed to needing sunfire's cape to clear).

, Lee Sin still has the weakness of being one of the worst duelists for being a bruiser, for example.

He also has an initiative skill alongside an escape, while champions like Vi and Sejuani need to decide whether to use their only mobility spell (outside Vi's ultimate) to initiate a fight or escape. Besides, a good Lee Sin will only pick fights he can win with his execute spell (tho you could say that for any jungler).

Vi will still like building damage too much to bother buying Cinderhulk

Eh, I disagree. With Vi, it's best to build one or two damage items and then build tanky afterwards. Her W passive provides enough damage, and her vitality will ensure she comes out top in almost ever 1v1 fight.

All of the current AD junglers play as pseudo-assassins where they just try to deal tons of damage to important targets. Vi will still like building damage too much to bother buying Cinderhulk, and their bursty nature means that they don't want to just sit in there hitting stuff forever. Sunfire is currently only good on champions with zero offensive scaling that need damage.

Then why are you calling for nerfs for Sejuani? She's a disruptive tank with cc.

And I am tired of people saying I hate Lee Sin. I don't like his popularity (call me a hipster), but he's pretty relatively balanced. If I called you a Lee Sin main fanboy, I'd sound silly, wouldn't I? But I won't, because you probably aren't. But I digress, don't bring ad hominem ("attacking the man") when you're trying to discuss champions.

thinking manMar 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Never said I hated Lee Sin. He's just a different type of jungler than Sejuani, and benefits from raw stats (as opposed to needing sunfire's cape to clear).

He also has an initiative skill alongside an escape, while champions like Vi and Sejuani need to decide whether to use their only mobility spell (outside Vi's ultimate) to initiate a fight or escape. Besides, a good Lee Sin will only pick fights he can win with his execute spell (tho you could say that for any jungler).

Eh, I disagree. With Vi, it's best to build one or two damage items and then build tanky afterwards. Her W passive provides enough damage, and her vitality will ensure she comes out top in almost ever 1v1 fight.

Then why are you calling for nerfs for Sejuani? She's a disruptive tank with cc.

And I am tired of people saying I hate Lee Sin. I don't like his popularity (call me a hipster), but he's pretty relatively balanced. If I called you a Lee Sin main fanboy, I'd sound silly, wouldn't I? But I won't, because you probably aren't. But I digress, don't bring ad hominem ("attacking the man") when you're trying to discuss champions.

There isn't a difference between needing raw stats or Sunfire to clear if in the end you need to spend extra gold to clear the jungle well. This is going to be made worse by the fact that it'll be easier than ever to get the Sunfire clearing power. It's not nearly a problem now, but she will be stupidly powerful next patch.

Vi and Sejuani are also much better at just straight-up fighting than him, although Lee can pick his fights, he will straight up lose a lot of fights since removing his attack speed slow made him a rather bad duelist.

I'm not quite sure what you're disagreeing with me about on the topic of Vi since that's essentially what I was saying. Any damage at all is too much for Cinderhulk, although I guess I didn't explicitly state that.

I'm also calling for nerfs to Sejuani because she is already extremely strong and will be broken next patch. I'm not sure where you get the idea that not playing as an assassin on something clearly not meant to be played as an assassin means that means that they don't need nerfs in a role. As for assuming you hate Lee, you didn't really seem to like him in another thread I made awhile ago (at least I think it was you) and the average GP&B user hates Lee so I can usually make a correct assumption if I say that somebody on here doesn't like Lee.

IcyPepperMar 8, 20151 votes

I'm also calling for nerfs to Sejuani because she is already extremely strong and will be broken next patch.

I will admit that we'll have to see. Sejuani herself is fine, but... well, we'll see. The item will definitely synergize with her better than a lot of other tanks, so only time will tell.

And I know what you mean about Lee Sin. I find him annoying due to popularity and all his utility/damage, but rather than QQ like a lot of haters I just did my research, found his weaknesses, and just dealt with it.

I mean, seeing immobile mages go midlane with ignite against Zed just makes me cry, especially if they don't rush zhonyas.

But we'll see.

thinking manMar 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I will admit that we'll have to see. Sejuani herself is fine, but... well, we'll see. The item will definitely synergize with her better than a lot of other tanks, so only time will tell.

And I know what you mean about Lee Sin. I find him annoying due to popularity and all his utility/damage, but rather than QQ like a lot of haters I just did my research, found his weaknesses, and just dealt with it.

I mean, seeing immobile mages go midlane with ignite against Zed just makes me cry, especially if they don't rush zhonyas.

But we'll see.

I guess I'll bump this thread a week after the patch drops but I don't see how buffing an already incredibly strong champion won't make them even more strong.

Gromp is going to make clears way easier for tanks since they're buffing the smite buff, and Cinderhulk is just making it way easier for them to do damage.

Expect a lot of Naut/Sej, I know I'll be playing Naut again.

IcyPepperMar 8, 20151 votes

Want to bet a mystery skin if Sejuani gets a nerf on patch 5.6? It could go either way.

And hell yes, I want to buy Naut and play him. A walking tank of cc. Is he really fun?

thinking manMar 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Want to bet a mystery skin if Sejuani gets a nerf on patch 5.6? It could go either way.

And hell yes, I want to buy Naut and play him. A walking tank of cc. Is he really fun?

I loved Naut in S4. I tried him on PBE and he spams a lot more but his only downside is you'll be OOM more often. He also doesn't have as cheesy of a level 3 w/ red buff as he did last season.

Also idk if I want to bet since I don't buy RP that often anymore lol

ForgiveColourMar 8, 20151 votes

so much counterplay yet second highest win rate and will go higher after 5.5

MegatankbotMar 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

so much counterplay yet second highest win rate and will go higher after 5.5

She also only has a 6% pick rate, meanwhile vi has a 2% lower win rate but three times the pick rate. Or blitz who has almost the same win rate as vi and a higher pick rate. Before they nerf a champion that just got good, they need to nerf all the ones that have been good forever. Especially when she is the only viable jungle tank.

When the new items comes her win rate will go up, then her pick rate, which will make her win rate go back down.

Poptart EvelynnMar 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Her clear speed isn't great.

Her ultimate is a skillshot.

Her main form of damage outside her ult is DoT, and her E typically requires her W (unless you autoattack an entire team, which is unlikely).

Her q doesn't deal a lot of damage, especially considering that if you build a substantial amount of AP on Sejuani, you're doing it wrong.

She's a good team-player rather than carry, but that doesn't make her overpowered. Just because someone can support a team and not actually be the support (while dealing some damage too) doesn't make them necessarily overpowered.

Her W with max cdr is a 15%(assuming you have a little ap) of max health on a 4 second cooldown with a 100% up time on the swing damage. As a tank she can use this about 4+ times a fight.

Her ult when done right can allow her to E an entire team.

She scales damage with health items.

She has some of the strongest CC in the game.

I like the attempt to make her look half decent. But in all honesty she will be an issue next patch.

metaworldpeace10Mar 8, 20153 votes

I'm glad Sej is good. It's been FAR too long! I love seeing Sej during LCS.

OhOkYeaMar 8, 20151 votes

karthus is ezmode and OP

Salt Miner 49 ErMar 8, 20151 votes

That's where you're wrong because Sejuani has a clearly defined power slope that rises over time instead of skyrocketing like the more popular junglers like Jarvan, Vi, Lee, etc. who get stupidly strong at level si when they acquire their ultimates. Sejuani still has to actually hit you with a SKILL SHOT AoE disable, and then frontload the cooldown on her E to slow you after the stun.

I'm more worried that Cinderhulk is going to become popular on the Big Bad Four junglers since it encourages staying in a fight for as long as possible to ramp up in power, and they have base values that are high enough to get away with one offensive item to begin with. Leading to Cinderhulk getting nerfed and some of the better tank junglers like Nautilus or Sejuani getting indirectly nerfed AGAIN.

thinking manMar 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Monkey Trouble,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b5A3oliK,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-08T20:06:41.102+0000)

That's where you're wrong because Sejuani has a clearly defined power slope that rises over time instead of skyrocketing like the more popular junglers like Jarvan, Vi, Lee, etc. who get stupidly strong at level si when they acquire their ultimates. Sejuani still has to actually hit you with a SKILL SHOT AoE disable, and then frontload the cooldown on her E to slow you after the stun.

I'm more worried that Cinderhulk is going to become popular on the Big Bad Four junglers since it encourages staying in a fight for as long as possible to ramp up in power, and they have base values that are high enough to get away with one offensive item to begin with. Leading to Cinderhulk getting nerfed and some of the better tank junglers like Nautilus or Sejuani getting indirectly nerfed AGAIN.

The current FOTM junglers scale too well with armor pen to ever want to build Cinderhulk. Cinderhulk is just going to make the new broken cancer junglers Sej/Naut instead of Jarvan/Vi.

Salt Miner 49 ErMar 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The current FOTM junglers scale too well with armor pen to ever want to build Cinderhulk. Cinderhulk is just going to make the new broken cancer junglers Sej/Naut instead of Jarvan/Vi.

You say cancer as if they actually aren't healthy for the game. The only reason why Sejuani scales so well into late game isn't the fact that she does a 70% slow on her E at Rank 5, it's that they consolidated the power of her Q before the change into her W so that she actually has a reason to max it first in order to do % of max health damage on-demand and then AoE damage based on her max health.

Honestly, Sejuani and Maokai only scale well because of that fact. Nautilus is strong because he has probably the most CC heavy kit in the game, but he isn't nearly as brain dead easy to play as Jarvan IV because there's actually some Spider-Man shenanigans you can use. Quite frankly, i'm annoyed that some of my favorite junglers are being called "cancer" all because of one item, not because of their relative strength in the game. Neither one of them have amazing first clears, or can gank efficiently at low levels compared to Jarvan and Lee, so don't get your panties in a knot because they may get popular again.

Hell, Cinderhulk may even see Zac getting some play again.

Leblancs BoobMar 8, 20151 votes

It's nice to see a change for once. It's tiring always seeing the same junglers over and over and over and over again season after season.

thinking manMar 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's nice to see a change for once. It's tiring always seeing the same junglers over and over and over and over again season after season.

This is just going to create two different same junglers over and over.

It isn't a problem with the item itself, it is a problem with the two outliers that will be created by this. Sejuani will need nerfs but the change itself will be good for the rest of the jungle.

RanmanRebornMar 8, 20151 votes

Tell you what. I'll agree to a Sejuani nerf when they agree to properly nerf Lee.

Yeah, I'll wait.

thinking manMar 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Tell you what. I'll agree to a Sejuani nerf when they agree to properly nerf Lee.

Yeah, I'll wait.

Lee's a joke now bro.

ForgiveColourMar 8, 20151 votes

she does need nerf, she is already second highest winrate in the game before juggler buff. Wont be surprised that sejuani will go to 60% win rate after 5.5

MegatankbotMar 10, 20151 votes

Yes she is strong, and will be stronger next patch, but she most likely will still be weaker then the top tier junglers. However, if they said they where going to nerf sejuani....and lee and vi and jarven and so on 5.6, i would be fine with it. It however would be complete, unabashed favoritism for bruiser jugglers if they only nerfed sejuani. What they really need to do if buff weaker jugglers up to their level. Jungle is supper weak right now, and before you call me biased jungle man, I actually main top. :P