i feel like anti-armor should be in kits more than it should be in items

Big Lincoln··57 votes·2,824 views

falconPAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNCH mentioning full AD teams in his newest no-effort post reminded me of this

You have item 3071 , item 3035 and its upgrades, and the Lethality items.

Lethality on its own isn't really an issue; it's flat pen, and armor stacking counters it so it's still most effective vs squishy targets. I'm kind of opposed to any stat pen but it's not going to leave League so w/e

I think Cleaver and LW are the problem. These two items are anti-armor, because they're % reduction. And they stack with Lethality, so assassins that invest into a Dominik's will actually do.. a lot of damage to a tank even if they're heavy on armor.

But the real issue IMO is that these are core items. Cleaver went from a general item with 10% CDR and a chunk of AD and health, picked mostly on fighters and some assassins, to a Juggernaut item with more health and less AD, and then back to a general item that's pretty much standard on every fighter. Compare this to the old standard fighter rush item item 3074 which gave you a lot of damage, no health, some lifesteal and some waveclear. No CDR and no armor shred. Almost none of its previously core users buy this item anymore; the only one I see frequently with it is Fiora. Cleaver also bolsters your effectiveness vs squishy targets; there's really no problem of rushing the item. ( Of course... item 3165 tho )

Lord Dominik's is just horse shit. Not only do you get 45% bonus armor penetration, you get up to 15% extra damage vs targets with up to 500 more health than you. And there's no real tradeoff to building it; you're still getting 50 AD, and even something as minimal as a Sightstone on the enemy support will boost your damage vs them.

This means that tanks need to be balanced around the fact that these items will be built nearly every game, i.e "If you DON'T build these items, you're going to get rolled over by their front line." It's not a very good way to balance the game.

I don't know if this is THE solution, but I think that the best way to address this would be to make anti-tank power specific to champion kits, instead of being on two items that are almost universally friendly. You could also change the items to make them more niche so that if you build to wreck tanks then you don't also get to slaughter squishies even easier, but I doubt we'll ever see that.

82 Comments

Ralanr13 votes

Balancing tanks around something other than if X bought Y would be a nice change of pace.

Ben Sharpio3 votes

give tanks 5000 gold items

Ralanr1 votes

But I don't want to farm that much.

TyrekGoldenspear11 votes

Then farm champions. :^)

Much easier.

Glory ln Death1 votes

But think of all the health that comes with it! Late game, assuming a decent quantity of kills/assists/siege minions, that's like 5-600 health! It's totally worth it!

50000000000000001 votes

I think not all tanks are Sions. Not completely sure, though.

Ralanr1 votes

It's hard to tell I know.

Spoofghoul2 votes

Sion Yes you do!

TotalJerk1 votes

Do you understand how fucked up a 5000 gold item would have to be to have decent gold efficiency?

Pimasterchampion1 votes

ima put armor and mr and hp

Health: (8/3900)=2400 gold REsistance: 1870+20*17=2660

900 HP 70 armor 70 mr

Orangesilk3 votes

Passive: Steps of the colossus.

You ignore unit collision with minions, instead if you would collide with an enemy minion you execute them instantly.

Big Lincoln5 votes

I think armor values would need to be adjusted, too, but I M O it would ultimately benefit the game

Ðreamdate2 votes

Opposite to what you said.. every tank item is fail due to the items you are describing.. I've actually given up on front line tanking over that. Smart adc builds armor pen when they see the enemy team has a tank. The other thing that should be removed from game completely is TRUE DAMAGE, why have MR and Armor if this stat TRUMPS all. RIOT has items with MR/Armor but then puts in true dmg that cant be negated in any way, except with more health.

Rewt1 votes

Its really not the fact that true damage exists, its just how its implemented. For example. True damage SHOULD NEVER be on a basic ability (cough camille cough) but on other things its fine. Ignite, Ulties, and as much as i really dislike the true damage on Irelia W its not a massive problem.

Verdade2 votes

Velkoz has really easy acess to true damage and he's balanced

Rewt1 votes

he has to combo for it. it isnt like camille where she literally just gets to hit you with true damage out of the blue. at least with Vel you can dodge his combo and that makes his true damage very minimal or even non existant

Verdade1 votes

Not really, vel's R is 1200-ish true damage AOE with 1500 range. Im not saying he's op, im just implying true damage isn't broken by design, its broken if used in certain kits.

Ahristocats2 votes

anddddddddddddddddddddd dota 2

i proposed this years ago but no one listened because the board back then hated everything related to dota2 but this is exactly what dota has

flat armor pen and the rest is in the kit of heroes

same for %hp damage

Big Lincoln1 votes

dang maybe i should play dota 2 more

still dont have a good grasp on it tho

Ahristocats2 votes

to be fair one does not simply start to play dota

but i think i started to like league more just because it has simple things, like mana cost they aren't overbearing (prepare for 140 or 160 mana cost in dota, and up to 600 on ults) , but sometimes(not always) they are well done like on jhin who can be oom

Big Lincoln1 votes

ya i oom'd quickly on a couple of heroes

i quite enjoy some of the strength dudes rn i'm lookin at axe, abaddon, sven

arc warden kinda neat

Ahristocats3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b4uAjLnJ,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-07T00:10:09.589+0000)

arc warden kinda neat

2 years since his release, and i still can't play him gl

as much as i prefer league, dota has superior balance and (maybe) design

WoonStruck1 votes

At this point, I'd argue for DotA's superior design.

I'd say it was debatable before season 6 and on, definitely not after, though.

Kingnewgameplus1 votes

Honestly the 2 reasons I haven't switched over to DOTA 2 yet is because my computer can't handle it for some reason, and I vastly prefer the characters and personalities in league.

Anidan2 votes

As someone who prefers playing DotA2 I can actually vouch for this. For all the things Riot does wrong, they can create some pretty good character personalities and artistic design. I love some of the characters in DotA2, but I do bemoan not having a hero as well-developed personality-wise as, say, Jhin.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Hand me a game with a Kitsune and I'll play it. Dota nine tailed fox when?

Ahristocats1 votes

pretty sure after monkeyking it's going to happen

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Two questions then. How long are Hero releases, and how potato friendly is Dota in patch 7+.

Ahristocats1 votes

can't answer for second question tough it was greatly improved like the new shop

first question=6 months, which means that next champ will be released in nearly jully/august and i don't know why but but i feel the kumioh champion is next since valve did wukong for china, and now they will please korea

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Hoped for a little more confirmation than just speculation like a teaser or something, especially as the Nine Tailed Fox myth isn't specifically a Korean one. I'll keep an eye out though, and reinstall Dota 2 and see how well it goes.

Ralanr2 votes

Honestly I would have expected you to say Japanese over Korean because people often mistake Ahri's influence on fox spirits from Japan when it's actually from Korea.

Glad to see mains that know the background honestly.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

I much prefer the Japanese version of the myth myself, but there's no denying that that Ahri was influenced by the Korean version.

Ralanr1 votes

Axe is perfect in the comics though.

RavenMagus1 votes

Dota had extremely shitty design for a long time. Especially in the jungle, where everything was so random and a lot of the camp areas had very poorly thrown together mechanics, holdovers from back in the Warcraft 3 days.

I heard Dota had a huge overhaul recently, though, so they might have made that whole mess a lot better. I haven't played in a while.

Anidan1 votes

I learned how to play Meepo and micro Naga Siren at a decent enough level, still can't play Arc Warden worth anything, though. That dude takes some skill, as long as you're aren't solely using the clone to set-up Spark Wraith death walls.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Balance or not, DOTA is actually similar to League from a design perspective.

The early days are fraught with champions who had huge overlap of each other (Darius/Garen or Leoric/Sven) followed by slowly growing out the heroes as well as kit. Since then they've both come far; Axe/Annie don't hold candles to Zet/Jhin in terms of design.

Ironically enough, I think Monkey King is a step backwards in Icefrog's designing. While he's an improvement over our Wukong (because he's 0 effort), he's just...not really all that interesting. Maybe it's the 4-hit passive or whatever but he just seems super basic and straightforward, especially after shit like Ember and Earth spirit. Then again, not every character will be a winner.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b4uAjLnJ,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-07T00:10:09.589+0000)

ya i oom'd quickly on a couple of heroes

i quite enjoy some of the strength dudes rn i'm lookin at axe, abaddon, sven

arc warden kinda neat

Axe is cool, but once again keep in mind the issue of scaling. You'll feel like a badass at first, but if you don't win early you will be deleted by any carry worth a damn. Taunting a Phantom Assassin, for an extreme example, is pretty much suicide.

Sven is a pretty fun carry that can blow people up late game though.

My favorite heroes are Juggernaut, Tiny, Phantom Lancer, Wraith King, Troll Warlord, Wukong, Slark, and Riki. I only play carries, because I'm the low elo cancer that is killing Dota.

Big Lincoln1 votes

i want to pick up a micro champ so i can familiarize with the mechanics of it

kind of confusing tho i can't even keep my screen steady with me, camera lock has made me weak

Golden Tager X1 votes

Micro you say, try Meepo :^)

Seriously don't do it man

Big Lincoln1 votes

was thinking i'd try visage tbh

Vekkna2 votes

item 3036 vs item 3135 Cost is essentially the same, but LDR gives % pen and % damage in the build path? And before you say that 35% total pen is better than 45% bonus pen, that's only situationally true. Total pen is very slightly better against tanks, but the higher bonus pen makes it harder to counterbuild.

item 3071 If you're AD, the total pen vs. bonus pen argument is irrelevant because you can have both. Imagine that!

item 3034 Why the fuck is this passive on a component for AD but not item 3001

item 3123 Why the fuck is this passive on a component for AD but not item 3165

item 3136 item 3151 Why is this a unique named passive, but not item 3134?

item 3814 item 3147 item 3142 item 3036 item 3071 item 3134 Why the fuck does this add up to 30% pen, 45% bonus pen, and 60 flat pen?

And most importantly, how the fuck does anyone rationalize this as anything but AD bias?

DKM Bismarck1 votes

Yeah but AP doesn't have to wait for its flat pen to scale like AD does. The AP components are worse than AD components but you can argue that complete AP items are just as strong as if not more powerful than AD items and a lot of them are cheaper as well with the exception of Rabadon's. 35% total pen is stronger than 45% bonus pen vs squishies which is the big kicker, any LDR builder outside of an ADC focuses squishies, which is what makes Void better imo. AP isn't hard done to by any means otherwise AD champs would be the only things in meta but at least one mage per team and sometimes more is absolutely core, one of the reasons is that they generally outdamage AD's with the exception of ADC's, Rengar and Kha'Zix and a Zed who can hit every skill. There is very little itemisation bias at complete items. Also this case of item 3142 item 3147 item 3814 item 3036 item 3071 costs you nearly 15k gold and it doesn't scale as well as a crit build or a general mage build, either.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

I mean, % bonus armor pen is kinda designed to wreck tanks without hurting squishies too much, but are you suggesting to make armor pen more innate like Darius's Apprehend passive?

Big Lincoln2 votes

I mean, % bonus armor pen is kinda designed to wreck tanks without hurting squishies too much,

doesn't really matter when you get a whole 50 AD to boot and bonus damage vs someone who wants to build health. thus forcing them to build armor making your Dominik's more effective :^)

but are you suggesting to make armor pen more innate like Darius's Apprehend passive?

pretty much

Rewt1 votes

Im perfectly fine with the changes since i lived through Season 4-6......... fucking tanks. 2 and a half years of a gay ass tank meta and we are finally done with it and we get posts of people complaining that they arn't invulnerable anymore. ffs. i play full tank Maokai jungle and it feels fine. He can tank a single target pretty well but if 3 people focus his ass he dies pretty quick. WHICH IS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE. tanks shouldnt be the immortal beings they were for 2 seasons. they should be kept in line like they are right now.

Tychusfindlay9196 votes

{quoted}

Im perfectly fine with the changes since i lived through Season 4-6......... fucking tanks. 2 and a half years of a gay ass tank meta and we are finally done with it and we get posts of people complaining that they arn't invulnerable anymore. ffs. i play full tank Maokai jungle and it feels fine. He can tank a single target pretty well but if 3 people focus his ass he dies pretty quick. WHICH IS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE. tanks shouldnt be the immortal beings they were for 2 seasons. they should be kept in line like they are right now.

What the...

Early and mid season 6 was hellish for tanks, and comps running three ADCs (jungle top/mid, and ADC) were the norm.

Or did you just forget that? Remember when kindred/graves dominated the jungle all by themselves? Kalista was an asshole? Azir was the biggest asshole of all time? No? None of that crosses your mind?

Courage of the colossus was only introduced towards the very very end of season 6.

Iźuku Midoriya1 votes

Honestly as an ADC is either, "I have item 3035 i deal damage" or "I dont haveitem 3035 run for your life cause i cant put a dent in em"

Bodkins Odds6 votes

Dude, sometimes it's "I have item 3031 item 3085 item 3006 item 3072 item 3087 item 3033 and that Volibear can still chase me to death through two towers even though I had summoner 4, summoner 7, Rocket Jump, and Buster Shot up."

Iźuku Midoriya2 votes

Literally is the best summarization of adc

MissingKayo1 votes

You're not supposed to be 1v1ing Voli anyways.

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