Tryndamere Needs a Rework

AShortJoke·Apr 7, 2017·86 votes·4,353 views

This isn't one of those posts where I rage about how OP Tryndamere is, because he isn't. But the fact is, his kit is extremely outdated, including is ultimate, and he can be very cancerous to play with and against. If Tryndamere gets ahead, it takes 3 people to stop his split push. Now obviously there are ways to stop him from getting ahead. He has very clear counters that I am aware of. However, not every game goes according to plan, and a fed Tryndamere can completely take over a game more than almost any other champion, possibly any other champion. On the flip side, a Tryndamere that's behind can be almost useless. A champion with such a feast or famine kit doesn't belong in modern day League of Legends where Riot is coming up with more and more creative additions to the game every patch. His kit is dull, outdated, and no longer belongs in the game.

68 Comments

Scary DoorApr 7, 201732 votes

This is absolutely true, but Riot has left him alone for the entirety of time I've been playing (which goes back to Season 1).

Simply put, he is unhealthy for the game, always has been, always will be.

It isn't that he's a split pusher, it isn't that he has 35% free crit chance built into his kit, it isn't that he has a dash or an ult that makes him invincible, nor is it that he has a heal... it is all of that combined into one that makes him virtually impossible to stop... not in an overpowered sense but simply in a frustrating to play against kind of sense.

TimX24968BApr 9, 20171 votes

thats part of his design, though...

Scary DoorApr 9, 20173 votes

That doesn't excuse it, nor does it justify keeping something deliberately unhealthy for the game. I suppose the only reason it hasn't been changed is because it's not blatantly overpowered or, more importantly, used in the LCS.

I assure you, if Trynd saw pro play he would be immediately reworked.

And, think about it, his design is supposed to be this rage-fueled barbaric warrior not afraid of anything and dragging this enormous blade with him, but the moment anyone gets near him, he dashes through a wall and runs from a fight.

TimX24968BApr 9, 20171 votes

it depends what that anything is... if its more than 1 person, it screws him up because he is designed to be a dueler and heavily single target.

Dank Memes 333 Apr 7, 201717 votes

Holy Christ what do you guys have against split pushing? You guys are all for in game diversity until it's something you don't enjoy.

Heckin SupportApr 8, 20179 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dank Memes 333 ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b2ZshxA9,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-04-07T23:53:28.591+0000)

Holy Christ what do you guys have against split pushing? You guys are all for in game diversity until it's something you don't enjoy.

Are you defending his playstyle? It's toxic with little to no counterplay.

GULAG 4 UApr 8, 201715 votes

It may be toxic, but still is a fundamental league strat.

Heckin SupportApr 8, 20173 votes

{quoted}

It may be toxic, but still is a fundamental league strat.

How can you defend something that's toxic, by saying it's a fundamental league strat. I have nothing against splitpushing, I have everything against Trynd's kit and playstyle though.

GULAG 4 UApr 8, 20178 votes

I was referring to splitpushing, not tryndamere's kit.

TwinkieProApr 8, 20175 votes

And the post was referring to trynd's kit, not splitpushing. So the start of this thread was pointless to begin with.

ErrastasApr 8, 20172 votes

He has plenty of counter play

x Shiv xSep 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Are you defending his playstyle? It's toxic with little to no counterplay.

You can split push while not having a toxic playstyle nor kit. Ex: Fiora Shen Galio Irelia

SasogwaSep 27, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=x Shiv x,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b2ZshxA9,comment-id=000100000002,timestamp=2017-09-27T16:08:26.094+0000)

You can split push while not having a toxic playstyle nor kit. Ex:

Hard to say those kits aren't toxic. %health true damage and high mobility makes Fiora one of the most innately broken kits in the game and basically the best toplaner if she's strong. Shen has always been a problem in competitive due to his ult. Galio's ridiculous amount of CC and tankiness also is, for some reason he has also waveclear... Irelia dumpsters everyone if she gets ahead.. Tbh Trynd is at least kiteable and has a non targeted slow-ish dash.

I mean how is Trynda more toxic? he has sustain and his ult? Rng makes people butthurt when they die because they stayed at 100 hp against Tryn, yeah let's blame RNG for his lucky crit, and consider it's normal if he doesn't crit 5 times in a row despite having more than 50% crit?

Oh well necro thread but whatever

x Shiv xOct 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Hard to say those kits aren't toxic. %health true damage and high mobility makes Fiora one of the most innately broken kits in the game and basically the best toplaner if she's strong. Shen has always been a problem in competitive due to his ult. Galio's ridiculous amount of CC and tankiness also is, for some reason he has also waveclear... Irelia dumpsters everyone if she gets ahead.. Tbh Trynd is at least kiteable and has a non targeted slow-ish dash.

I mean how is Trynda more toxic? he has sustain and his ult? Rng makes people butthurt when they die because they stayed at 100 hp against Tryn, yeah let's blame RNG for his lucky crit, and consider it's normal if he doesn't crit 5 times in a row despite having more than 50% crit?

Oh well necro thread but whatever

Simple: Fiora's true damage and heals has counterplay, tryndamere's damage and survivability does not. Irelia falls off late game and galio won't ever kill you 1v1 unless you really don't know how to play the game. Shen is a pretty balanced champion for soloQ.

ForeverLaxxApr 8, 20172 votes

To be fair, Riot has the same opinion. It's 5-man fights in Mid, or no League for anyone.

AnidanApr 9, 20173 votes

That sounds horrible. Isn't that just removing viable strategies?

And people support this kind of thing and claim League has strategic depth when it routinely gets removed for being "toxic." It has tactical depth, but by now and with the future Riot seems to want to head in, it's losing strategic depth.

ForeverLaxxApr 9, 20174 votes

A lot of that has to do with their obsession over "LC$ BIG PLAY$" and utter refusal to implement items/champions designed to help combat unorthodox strategies. What it boils down to is that Riot wants to skip the pick phase, Riot wants you to build the same 4 items every game, Riot wants the lane phase to end as soon as it has to, and Riot wants everyone to group up Mid so they can have one or two big flashy fights and then the game ends.

AnidanApr 9, 20171 votes

It seems ironic because I feel like many of these changes would actually be detrimental to pro play. Any change to artificially speed up the game means those players have to be even more careful so they don't let the enemy team snowball off that even harder, and few flashy fights means each individual teamfight means so much that it can't be good for morale and strategies if a teamfight goes the wrong way, meaning you absolutely have to pick someone that can participate in teamfights so your team doesn't lose the game just because they wanted to use a different strategy at all. This sounds like it lowers diversity in the long run, makes games more boring to watch because everything is riskier and the crazy stuff that pros did before would be considered so risky they wouldn't attempt it now because if it goes even slightly wrong then the advantage can be immediately grabbed and snowballed, and alternative strategies (besides different picks for the same overall teamfight gameplan) don't get a chance to emerge. This all sounds absolutely horrible for a competitive scene.

Chembaron YamadaApr 9, 20171 votes

That's not true at all. Remember Camilles entrance in the game? They pointed out often enough that she is going to be a great split pusher. She builds trinity force, has 2 AA resets in her Q, excels at dueling and has mobility to escape if the enemy team comes to get her. She shreds towers extremely fast.

All mid is the most popular strategy (which is why champs like Jinx, who excel in team fights, are balanced around a winrate above 50%) but riot still gives tools for other approaches like split pushing.

Bots Whilst HighApr 8, 20171 votes

OP touched on this in that when he's even or ahead or it's simply late game you need 2-3 champions to lock him down or he just q and lifesteals his health bar back in a matter of seconds. His 5second ult compounds this and therefor an unreasonable amount of enemy team resources have to be dedicated to stop 1 player while the other 4 get to run it down mid with a 2-3 player advantage and if you rotate 5 go stop him he'll just take the nexus. One lane shouldn't be enough to win the game in the current state of the game is what frustrates so many people.

The fact that he nullifies damage for 5 seconds while also being to lifesteal in that time period is what makes him incredibly difficult to deal with unless you baby sit him all game and have a champion with significant wave clear AND cc or he will just dive you, ult, kill you under tower, lifesteal it all back and push to your nexus.

Lady HammerlockApr 8, 20179 votes

don't forget to mention he's the only champion that can win the lane by pure RNG

DarkSunSovereignApr 8, 20171 votes

Yasuo says hi

REVERT MORDApr 8, 20173 votes

Except he can't crit at level one unless you buy item 1051 which would probably not end well.

DarkSunSovereignApr 8, 20171 votes

Right. He can still win after first back cuz of RNG.

AwhegarkApr 9, 20171 votes

I actually do buy that item and get fed before first back is actually very good once you try it.

EDIT: my bad wanted to reply to the other person... meh too late for regrets.

LuminierApr 9, 20172 votes

That applies to any champion that builds crit.

DarkSunSovereignApr 9, 20171 votes

Most champs who buy crit are ADCs and they get BF first back

TimX24968BApr 9, 20171 votes

sounds like someone needs to try out building crit then...

Agent CorgiApr 8, 20173 votes

I honestly get depressed when I see him. Sure He's annoying as hell, but it's not a guaranteed lose just because he's on the enemy team, but he just makes the game unfun most of the time. He either does one of two things depending on how the match is going; 1.) You win/survive the laning phase- Tryndamere will force you to eternally 1v1 him in a lane he's trying to push, preventing you from helping out in teamfights. 2.) He pub-stomps you into the ground- He can continue splitting if he chooses to, but he can also decimate people in teamfights with almost no repercussions since his Ultimate prevents him from dying. He will go for the backline & will either obliterate it or die taking someone like the APC or ADC out of the teamfight.

Despite all of that, he's not broken like some champions out there *Cough Illaoi cough * . You can lock him down with Hard CC & focus him down immediately. You also have to finish the game early as well since Tryndamere gets extremely dangerous as the game progresses. If the mad scientists at Riot can do anything, I just wish they'd make him less binary & more interactive. Hell, they have a 'Diver' Class-Update coming in the near future & Tryndamere is perfectly capable of Diving you Post-6. Maybe they can trim/shift some of his strengths around, this way he isn't a hassle to deal with until they grant him a VGU 2 or 3 years down the line.

Minor note- I do think Illaoi is a bit on the stronger side. There are definitely ways to play around her, yet she can get way too strong really quickly in most cases that I've seen. I'd rather see other champions who need work done first( AurelionSol , Azir , DrMundo , Tryndamere , Shaco , list goes on) & if Illaoi gets some power trimmed at some point, I wouldn't complain that much. Also noticed that Illaoi is under "Champion 420" when on Boards. Overall, I don't hate her, just think she's a really strong for a Juggernaut.

ShaolinToiletApr 8, 20172 votes

Illaoi is nowhere close to being too strong

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 9, 20171 votes

Trynda isn't a Divers. And they already planned to rework Trynda... someday

TimX24968BApr 9, 20171 votes

his ult is too iconic to get rid of, though.

Need Gold 4 TentApr 9, 20171 votes

doesn't stop them from getting rid of them. see poppy losing her idgaf-about-your-team ult, which is nearly similar to trynd's in some aspects. that was a very iconic ult, but they got rid of it anyway

TimX24968BApr 9, 20171 votes

Not really iconic, she never had much use of it being a tank.

Plus they would need to remake "a twist of fate" if they changed it.

TimX24968BApr 9, 20171 votes

correct. He is a skirmisher. However, he would need some similar tools to a diver, such as a gapcloser.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 9, 20171 votes

gapcloser isn't just for divers. Skirmisher are really mobile.

TimX24968BApr 9, 20171 votes

Exactly. I personally would be fine with a whole new W

OelykApr 8, 20172 votes

You insulted the Merill.

IdveYsUfSKApr 8, 20172 votes

he is still a fair champion compared to Yasuo . just abuse his weakness(easily kitable) and pressure his ult, hes just free food. he doesnt need a rework until Yasuo gets it.

Yaśuo MainApr 8, 20175 votes

Yasuo isn't as binary, outdated or as much as feast or famine than Tryndamere. Tryndamere needs one faster than Yasuo would ever need one.

TimX24968BApr 9, 20171 votes

tryndamere's kit is supposed to be binary. he is designed to have an overloaded it, and it has to be made binary for him to be functional. thats where something called COUNTERPLAY comes into the game..

Yaśuo MainApr 9, 20171 votes

Tryndamere isn't overloaded. I don't think you are at the right place, and counterplay doesn't fix anything overloaded. Otherwise, Lee Sin would have not been nerfed.

TimX24968BApr 9, 20171 votes

lee sin has a higher skill floor than tryndamere, however. Counterplay doesn't directly fix something thats overloaded, but the thing is, if it is overloaded, there are excessive strengths, which in turn, make him binary, exploiting weaknesses which lead to counterplay. This is all part of tryndamere's design. removing this would raise tryndamere's skill floor, when he is supposed to be a simple champ.

Yaśuo MainApr 9, 20171 votes

Binary = Win or Lose, no gray area

Tryndamere is binary with his matchups, and trades. If you hit any critical strikes during a trade as tryndamere, you are winning it. If you don't, you are losing it. That's binary. If you fight Nasus, Tryndamere is perfect. If you fight Darius... Good luck. That's binary matchups. Anything remotely close to a lane bully will hurt Tryndamere badly, which is why everything he DOES have a strength against, isn't known for being a bully. That's binary.

By this line

but the thing is, if it is overloaded, there are excessive strengths, which in turn, make him binary

This makes no sense for the fact that Lee is probably the most overloaded champion, but is not binary. He has real matchups and trades. He doesn't rely on his Q as much like Tryndamere relies on his critical chance. He has gray area's. Tryndamere does not.

Counterplay doesn't directly fix something thats overloaded

At this point I should stop talking to you because you still imply that counterplay fixes something being overloaded, even after I demonstrate this being faulty by showing you Lee Sin. This is straight up ignorance. Overloaded = having a lot of crap that is unnecessary and/or a lot of abilties and/or passives attached on to the champion. To deal with this, you have to nerf/buff/rework and etc. Items and champions don't remove entire passives or abilties.

Counterplaying is not the same as buffing, nerfing, or reworking. It is just either building against the enemy main damage type, picking a counter, or manufacturing team comps against that champion and such. It is however not the same as directly nerfing or reworking, the closest thing you can come up with to using counterplay against that champion is requesting a nerf. Case closed, stop talking about Counter play "countering" overloaded kits. He is also notably complex for being a simple champion, something like Annie or Garen are true "simple champs".

Lee Sin also only has a high skill floor due to him actually having a skill shot, literally everything else is either on cast, AOE on cast, or targeted.

TimX24968BApr 9, 20171 votes

let me rephrase: I meant extremely focused strengths, not overloaded. misread a bit of my research, my bad. He is designed to be a binary champion, and to do that, he needs to have those strengths overemphasized, resulting in a binary champion. This is what leads to counterplay, since he has huge weaknesses.

As a quote from one of the riot /dev blogs:

"What are champions with extremely focused strengths supposed to do in a long lane that features the most varied range of opponent abilities? The answer is that these single strengths must be overemphasized to the point of being excessively binary for them to even function."

http://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/2016/12/dev-on-evolving-the-laning-fighter/

his design is built around the fact that "Tryndamere excels at one thing, but has few tools to employ if that one thing fails." It may seem binary, but that is how he is designed... Honestly, he isn't that hard to counter or overcome, and that's coming from someone who's second main is tryndamere.

Yaśuo MainApr 9, 20172 votes

He is designed to be a binary champion, and to do that, he needs to have those strengths overemphasized, resulting >in a binary champion. This is what leads to counterplay, since he has huge weaknesses.

Sorry but I don't think RIOT would decide to make champions that can make both the enemy and the player have no fun at certain points. And you still don't get what I mean.

Let's take into the fact that the person who wrote about Tryndamere is biased a bit due to the fact that they love playing Tryndamere. What I am taking in right now, is that Tryndamere is designed to just split push and be near useless outside of that. Now tell me one thing,

what other champion is that much of a one-trick?

is that a healthy thing for Tryndamere to be so one sided?

Is he too annoying?

The problem is that he can 1v1 about anyone late game without getting more than 2 kills. Why? Farm. Tryndamere farms to the point that his passive AD and CRIT combine and he ends up hard to get rid of once he slaps your turret, which is even worse due to the fact that Riot hates turrets with a passion, they are able to be taken in 7 minutes in just by a 3 man bot/top/mid. That already sounds pretty weak.

He has a lot of tools that basically shout "split push or be useless" and since split pushing is a "Strategy", Tryndamere greatly punishes the enemy laner for even leaving the god damn lane, by smacking the tower off the map. You might as well pick Nasus if you wanna beat him at his own game. And no one wants to stay top all game, that isn't fun. He disables the enemy laner's power by staying top, so if the enemy laner was fed, he could just sit top and make sure that power doesn't go anyway by plowing down the entire top lane if he leaves, putting the top laners entire map pressure down, which can only be solved by staying top. And that means you won't make a difference in the game, so GG.

If his weakness was him making his team fight 4v5 because he can only split push good, why does he punish the enemy top so bad? You don't need to leave for 3 minutes until he already chunked your turret to atleast 3/4. Being binary is notably connected to being annoying, therefore, everyone wants a rework. Why did Warwick get one? He has a targeted ult that is suppression which applies on hit effects, and was instant cast. And guess what,

Tryndamere has invincibility to death on command, even when under CC. Now gains 50 fury on cast.

Built-in flash.

Slow to anyone who can't 1v1, and tries to run. Also reduces enemy AD so he can't 1v1 as well. Which just discourages fighting him all together if you aren't a counter.

Heals for free, by just hitting anything.

I don't even talk about the passives, and it all together sounds toxic on just one champion, in turn, shows the point of the post. Tryndamere is not a champion worthy of being in such a game in his current state, as long as it's this bad to fight him.

But taking my original comment and removing "binary", you get

outdated or as much as feast or famine

Even if binary was eliminated, Tryndamere is still a dumb champion.

hence, we want a rework

MarbleFunGameOct 10, 20171 votes

You just don't know how to play Yas, buddy

Need Gold 4 TentApr 9, 20172 votes

being binary is not necessarily a bad thing though. I am aware if I pick Tryndamere, I will carry the team or lose the game, for most part. Thus when I pick him, it is an intended gamble. Some people like playing safe and consistently, thus the metapicks, but for those who like playing high stakes, they might enjoy those kinds of binary champs.

TimX24968BApr 10, 20171 votes

exactly. its actually necessary for him, since his kit and design has extremely focused strengths.

I feel like if they did rework him, nobody would be much happier with him, since his whole design is based around things that people don't like.

After all, he is "your worst nightmare" (its one of his quotes)