Having a juggernaut as a teams main carry should be a viable option.

Dasdi96·Aug 24, 2017·74 votes·2,817 views

Right now teams are only having the marksman bot as the main carry of the team. They can destroy the enemy team if they get perl and buffs. You know who else can destroy teams if they get enabled by their team? Mages and juggernauts. Instead of building your comp around something like a twitch adc by giving him tons of shields, you can build a comp around a darius or illaoi top by giving them lots of speed boosts and cc'ing the enemy team long enough.

76 Comments

DragonSheaAug 25, 201712 votes

There is a list of roles that should Carry your game

Slayers. Mages. Fighters Marksmen.

Samflash3Aug 25, 201710 votes

Problem is that the game focuses on turret killing. You'd need someone who can kill turrets that may not be an ADC. Maybe a Support?

The Bardic GayAug 25, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Problem is that the game focuses on turret killing. You'd need someone who can kill turrets that may not be an ADC. Maybe a Support?

Yorick absolutely throttles turrets. When I play him I usually kill 3/4 turrets unassisted at least.

skyskee008Aug 25, 201716 votes

Now try and take those turrets when the enemy team is grouped defending. Hint: You can't.

Reason top laners are able to split push effectively is because they are a SOLO lane with TP - AKA they can be the highest level in the game easily and have the XP + items to effectively 1v1 anyone.

Also TP allows you to group if needed.

Now put Yorick bot lane: let's say he even wins lane.

He's still a lower level than the opposing top lane so split pushing would get him killed, if he groups with his team ALL they can do is sit there and look the enemy team while they clear waves and you can't even get hits on the enemy tower.

Now let's say there's a super tank like Maokai on the enemy team - how do you propose Yorick avoids him?

Normally he avoids team fights/ can zone backline because of tankiness.

However - if he builds tanky he can't do shit to the tanks, if he builds full damage then fking lmao - good luck doing any damage at a safe distance (AKA not getting blown up by the opposing mid laner).

All I'm saying is if you think that a juggernaut can go bot lane effectively in competitive then you don't understand how the game works.

Morde works in SoloQ because of his passive and because people just love dying. You CAN run Darius bot lane ad win games easily - it's just that it'll never work in a competitive environment and is NEVER optimal

SpoofghoulAug 25, 20174 votes

You can dive though

With your main carry as big as a tank

And pretty much a team full of hard engage and beefy bro's who cares about the damn turret you can kill it after you slaughtered the enemies

skyskee008Aug 25, 20172 votes

You can dive? Consistently and reliably win a teamfight 5v5 juggling tower aggro in a Solo environment? Also what if you're behind? How do you defend their siege when you can't clear waves without walking ur stupid ass up to the minion waves.

In competitive there's no way in the fking world you'd put a bruiser bot because the only possible way you win that game is by snowballing absolutely out of control.

Auz the RipperAug 25, 20172 votes

There are ways around that, mostly by change how towers work. If towers were able to be damaged by abilities and were then compensated with more armor and magic resist, most mages would be completely viable as pushers. The problem champions like ziggs and xerath pose (bombarding towers from a ridiculous distance) is already partially solved by the 50% damage reduction when no enemy minions are near and can be completely solved by the tower taking reduced damage from champions outside it's own attack range. towers are already immune to debuffs so that takes care of some other conceivable problems.

competitively then, mages could take the role of tower taker in a team comp and the role of damage dealer in that comp could be safely given to juggernauts or skirmishers.

skyskee008Aug 25, 20172 votes

So completely change how this game has worked for 7 seasons and having to completely rebalance around it because some people on boards wanna circlejerk against ADCs?

No thanks.

statelesskillerAug 25, 20171 votes

supposedly rubrick has great success with ADC darius. and rubricks in masters

TotalJerkAug 25, 20171 votes

No he doesn't. He pushes the wave super hard, but his turret damage is lame. For one, he can't Q turrets. Secondly turrets prioritize pets over minions, leading to them being killed almost immediately.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 25, 20173 votes

Ziggs and Azir are pretty good at taking turrets.

Plus, setting up a 1/3/1 with a Lich Bane user or a splitpushing top laner on one side and your juggernaut on the other and having a waveclear mid + support/jungle lets you take side lane turrets really easily.

And even past that, if your comp is based around speeding up your juggernaut, you probably want and have a ton of engage and should probably be based around trying to snowball and end the game quickly anyway.

Chaos Milk TeaAug 25, 201719 votes

With a juggernaut comp you are looking to ace the enemy. Your win condition isnt a siege, its a full blown brawl, the place juggernauts excel. If anything the team support would be aimed at diving 5v5 instead of a slow siege, like a sivir/karma teamwide speedboost, or a taric/kayle invulnerability. The whole comp is about pushing your juggernaut down their throats and keeping them just alive enough to keep healing themselves.

skyskee008Aug 25, 20174 votes

So pretty much your ONLY win condition is to snowball so far out of control that you can straight up dive?

Games would last 120 minutes because it'd be impossible to siege.

ChaosThiefAug 25, 20177 votes

You don't have to snowball. Juggernauts have quite the sizable amount of damage in their kits, they only need to be kept alive. You aren't trying to siege, you're trying to outright slaughter them.

Not to mention certain champions would heavily support a team like this. I'm talking about for example, kled and annie. Kled gives annie and the juggernaut a massive rush towards the enemy team, annie only needs to get close to wreak havoc among the enemies. Now add in the Juggernaut, whom are typically aoe focused.

ahferroin7Aug 25, 20171 votes

When you ace the enemy team or at least force them out, you don't need to siege. That is, assuming of course that you actually follow up on your advantage...

SpecterVonBarenAug 25, 20171 votes

Trundle can do this. Its amazing how fast he can take down a turret, especially with his team backing him up.

Blue Moon WolfAug 25, 20176 votes

it should be the case for any Carry, not just ADCs or Juggernauts. a Diver or even Skirmisher should be able to carry a team as well. that shield strategy should theoretically work for a Skirmisher as well as they tend to be almost as squishy as an ADC, only difference is they are not in a safe place in the back of the team so they are more likely to use those shields. any champ who has a focus on dealing damage should be able to carry a team.

i cant move wtfAug 24, 20173 votes

I'm not actually against this. How do you know it's not viable? How many comps like this have you tried?

TortungaAug 25, 20172 votes

It's viable against certain teams that lack disengage or/and CC, but against any other team an immobile juggernaut is just to easy to shut down, vs a ranged ADC in the back.

The only juggernauts that can somewhat carry, in my opinion, are Renekton (getting fed early) and Fiora/jax/tyrnd in the late game (split pushing, requiring 2+ members to stop them).

Azure DancerAug 25, 201711 votes

Aaand none of those are juggernauts

5000000000000000Aug 25, 20173 votes

Juggernauts are immobile fighters. Renekton and Jax are divers, and Fiora and Tryndamere are skirmishers.

ChaosThiefAug 25, 20171 votes

The list of Juggernauts includes: Garen , Darius , Illaoi , Mordekaiser , and Yorick . I may be missing a few, but you probably can see the general idea.

EDIT: ok I was missing quite a few...

PB4UAMEAug 25, 20171 votes

Also add Shyvana, Mundo, Urgot?(kinda a hybrid, but certainly juggernautesque), and Volibear.

CowseedAug 25, 20171 votes

Olaf and maybe this thing Udyr

SpiritOfOdysseusAug 26, 20171 votes

Olaf is pretty unique in that he can fill many roles. Udyr is... ehh.. he needs work :)

Variks the LoyalAug 26, 20171 votes

Garen Darius Illaoi Mordekaiser Yorick Skarner Udyr Volibear Olaf Shyvana DrMundo Nasus Chogath Trundle

Those are the current Juggernauts.

i cant move wtfAug 25, 20171 votes

So what's your solution?

CowseedAug 25, 20171 votes

Fiora??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

TiltyMacTiltFaceAug 25, 20173 votes

Why do juggernauts need to have the option to carry? What is wrong with ADC's and APC's being the main carries? If you want to be a carry, play a carry role? Why should other roles be altered to satisfy that?

Variks the LoyalAug 26, 20172 votes

There is no such thing as a carry class. Even among ADCs, there are ones that sacrifice damage output for utility to allow other members of their team to carry. Ashe Sivir Varus

They do damage themselves, of course, but they don't do as much damage as other Marksman. They trade it for the utility.

These exist among other classes as well. Darius is a Juggernaut made to hard carry, but Yorick is a Juggernaut focused on pushing lanes and objective control. Sejuani is a hard carry Tank that carries with crowd control, while Ornn lacks as much CC and offers utility in the form of upgraded items and the Brittle effect.

Hell, the concept of carry Supports isn't even out of the question. Zyra Malzahar are more recent, but Leona was a hard carry Support that carried with oodles of CC and never dying in the enemy team.

Being a carry isn't limited to one class, and every class has characters that offer up carry strength for team utility.

DragonSheaAug 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

There is no such thing as a carry class. Even among ADCs, there are ones that sacrifice damage output for utility to allow other members of their team to carry.

They do damage themselves, of course, but they don't do as much damage as other Marksman. They trade it for the utility.

These exist among other classes as well. is a Juggernaut made to hard carry, but is a Juggernaut focused on pushing lanes and objective control. is a hard carry Tank that carries with crowd control, while lacks as much CC and offers utility in the form of upgraded items and the Brittle effect.

Hell, the concept of carry Supports isn't even out of the question. are more recent, but was a hard carry Support that carried with oodles of CC and never dying in the enemy team.

Being a carry isn't limited to one class, and every class has characters that offer up carry strength for team utility.

Being a carry means being able to fight well and push the game ahead. Mainly champions that can do damage are meant to carry but when a support or a tank does it, it's seen as abnormal when it's really just a sign that they are carry until your own team can make a comeback as their utility and durability is now much stronger allowing them to heal or tank out the damage done by the enemy team.

MLDzXnRRRAug 25, 20172 votes

I recently played a game without an ADC. We had Yasuo + Thresh bot. Our mid was Zed, I was Kayn top, Shaco jungle. We couldn't finish the game. Enemy had 3 inhibitors down, baron empowered minions running in their base and we still can't hit the nexus, because of no range. We had to suicide dive multiple times to close the game. http://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/1783058744/206126317?tab=stats Winning without a ranged champions is too hard.

Jerry SeinfeIdAug 25, 20173 votes

i mean that's just a dmg type issue tbf. shacman shoulda gone ap.

DuskDaUmbreonAug 25, 20172 votes

It has nothing to do with that. It was a zero range issue. Those last two turrets are impossible to take without range.

PB4UAMEAug 25, 20172 votes

Not even close to true, you can take it with minions alone if you kill the enemy team.

Or save Rift herald to knock one of 'em down for you if you can get an early inhib tower down.

Additionally you can splitpush the side lanes until you take all their inhibs, then flood them with minions, get baron, and now you can siege out of tower range with the cannons, you get 6 baronned up super minions with a combined almost 25k hp between them spawing in every 30 seconds ONTOP of the actual minions, and if you are higher level than the average of your opponents, your minions get buffs too, on top of the extra hp from the inhibs behind down and on top of the super + baron buffs.

if you can't clear two measly fucking towers with that many minions you should instantly surrender, all uninstall, and probably come to terms with the fact that you aren't meant to play MOBAs.

Or, if that's still not enough, BoC is a godsend for breaking wave clear, especially with baron + supers. There is also ZZ'rot. And I guess since we're getting this ludicrous at this point, there's also ohmbreaker to just turn off the "invincible" towers so you can have the 2+ seconds you need to complete destroy both of them.

Jerry SeinfeIdAug 26, 20171 votes

And thresh was mainly building armor so he could have even tanked it.

Shaco + thresh could probably take a turret without minions if the enemy didn't show up

Iota ThetaAug 25, 20171 votes

It's possible, but it has to be done right.

My recent example wasn't so much on purpose, but we had a Darius top, Lee Sin jg, Veigar Mid, Cait adc, and myself on Taric for support. We fell behind, then started to comeback, then Cait D/c'd. We had to keep going and I mostly played support for Darius at that point, quickly finishing Mikael's to keep CC off him. We eventually just marched down mid and won.

Similar one a little longer ago, only jg WW left, and Illaoi was playin real strong but kept getting focused, so I would do what I could to keep her alove to do the damage she needed to do. Won that one too.

It's not a horrible strategy, but your team needs to be prepared to play around it, or flexible enough in case something comes up and the ADC can't carry. Cleanses are good friends to Juggs, as are speed boosts and CC.

I think Rubick and Malicious Metal like running Juggernauts botlane as well if you want some Diamond examples.

TortungaAug 25, 20172 votes

Just got a question to these games;

Was the enemy ADC completely shit?

Those are the only games I have felt that a juggernaut could carry; games where the enemy ADC is very easy to catch and kill.

Fear the KaynAug 25, 20171 votes

They tried putting Mordekaiser as a bot laner, but changed him for an unknown reason. Riot really doesn't like anybody but ADCs and sups bot.

ChaosThiefAug 25, 20173 votes

Actually, it was the Mordekaiser playerbase that wanted him to be able to solo lane. He was originally a top laner, and then he was forced down bottom lane.

Not to mention dedicated Mordekaiser bottom mains have incredibly high win rates.

AeszarckAug 25, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Why So Fishy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=az5X3AHo,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-08-25T07:33:06.838+0000)

They tried putting Mordekaiser as a bot laner, but changed him for an unknown reason. Riot really doesn't like anybody but ADCs and sups bot.

They changed him because previous Mordekaiser mains were extremely unhappy with how the rework forced him bot. However, if I understand correctly, Riot's subsequent changes haven't entirely forced him out of bottom lane. He still works very well bot lane, as evidenced by Rubick's and others' success with him, and he also works top, mid, and jungle, which is something that I think many Mordekaiser mains are grateful for. He's very versatile right now.

OHminusAug 25, 20171 votes

Juggernauts being viable as a main carry option takes me back to S5 worlds.

Darius Gangplank Mordekaiser shivers

ChaosThiefAug 25, 20174 votes

Gangplank is the Barrel Wizard, not a juggernaut.

HalcyonDwellerAug 25, 20171 votes

Why is everybody arguing over putting the juggernaut in the bottom lane?

This would work just fine with a top laner and just having a utility marksman or waveclear mage go bottom lane.

People are acting as if the marksman, juggernaut and enchanter are the only possibilities to have on the team comp. Mages exist, and some of them even have have good waveclear, poke or tower damage.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 26, 20171 votes

boards have a weird boner around juggers, adcs and supports.

SwiftKitten88Aug 25, 20171 votes

the reason ADc's are the carry and AP mages are carries... they are the glass cannons. they are allowed to do that much damage becuase they NEED a team to protect them.

if you starting making it so champsion like Sion Volibear Warwick can just walk up and 1v5... then WTF are you going to due to stop them.. there are FOUR other players you need to worry about.

the REASON tanks don't do as much damage is BECUASE they take a long time to kill. if suddenly the tankiest person on the team is also doing to most damage to you.. your screwed because you cant bring them down unless you all focus them. expect you cant because the OTHER four player are attacking you.

your your common sense people... im surprised this got so many upvotes.

the more raw suitability and effective HP they have, the less damage they can be allowed to deal.

SpiritOfOdysseusAug 25, 20176 votes

Tanks =/= juggernauts.

Juggernauts have damage ontop of being "tanky" because of their immobile nature. While the offset is true, ADCs have damage because of their ranged and MOBILE nature.

It should be able to play out evenly on BOTH sides instead of just ADCs being able to "carry"(quotes because juggernauts can sometimes carry BETTER than ADCs).

But at the current state of the game, Juggernauts, mages, and assassins can carry the early and mid game. ADCs, some mages(veigar), the off-juggernaut(nasus), and some assassins can only carry late-game.

Champion SkinAug 26, 20171 votes

Well I ended up supporting a master Yi "ADC" and a Yasuo "ADC"..... level 1-2 really sucks.... but after that it went decently well actually

Need Gold 4 TentAug 26, 20171 votes

I don't normally have them ADC, but they do carry hard especially when they're fed either jungle or mid. But that's because they're melee ADC, in a sense. You won't get an Assassin doing that sort of carrying, he might kill 1 person reliably but he's not gonna rip through the enemy team dropping one person after another with fast and heavy AAs.

I like the idea of a Darius/Illaoi carrying in the place of an ADC though, but hasn't Morde been able to do that somewhat effectively lately? I mean the mains are saying he's strong and stuff.

Champion SkinAug 26, 20171 votes

I don't know... I have heard about Morde bot/"ADC" being decently good but I haven't actually seen it in game so it is difficult to say

Darius could work well if he gets a kill with his ult or 5 stacks he can easily go off and rip through teams.... and he would work well with AoE mages that drop the enemy team low and then Darius could clean up and chain dunk the enemy team... his weakness like always would be actually getting 5 stacks or that first kill with his ult and reaching the enemy... a lot easier if he has mages/tanks/support on his team which AoE CC the enemy team or has a support which can speed him up

You won't get an Assassin doing that sort of carrying, he might kill 1 person reliably but he's not gonna rip through the enemy team dropping one person after another with fast and heavy AAs.

Talon used to be able to do that since he had so much AoE in Q + R + R he would almost be able to kill the entire enemy team if they grouped up too much and he was feed and just needed his team to do a little clean up (now his Q has a longer delay and a lot of his power has been moved to his passive which requires him to AA the target)

And Veigar could be quite strong with a support since his W and E are really powerful but they are unreliable because of the delays... but if he had a support to CC the enemy first then that makes everything a lot easier... the problem would of course be that Veigar doesn't have great DPS but that could be filled by other roles Kayle Cassiopeia Corki MasterYi Tryndamere Yasuo are all champions with high DPS which are played outside of bot there are probably more since that was just those I could think of at the moment