Casual players realizing what pro players knew all along.

Snowman Arc·Apr 25, 2018·47 votes·14,808 views

That assassins are generally not viable. They fell of the meta as soon as people realized that assassins are easily countered with proper vision control, right reactions and good support play. Seeing how most assassins can be countered by most supports' kits, they moved away from them and instead went into the way of waveclear mages, that will provide even more AoE damage later on from a distance.

4 years later, casual players realized that a Lulu was always able to polymorph the Zed, Janna was always able to ult that Talon away, and that Alistar can headbutt any threat away.

Guess what people. These things were happening FOR SO LONG now. Why do you have such a big problem with it now?

77 Comments

KhristophorosApr 25, 201848 votes

Assassins are actually viable in solo queue though.

DrugothApr 25, 201820 votes

Anything is viable with shitty enough players haha.

BestPudgeNAApr 26, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yung Sheets,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2xOpZqb5,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-04-25T20:52:40.353+0000)

Anything is viable with shitty enough players haha.

So basically LCS players in LCS events are great players, but LCS players in Solo Q Master/challenger games are shitty enough. Sounds legit bro. Or maybe solo q teams draft less for comp and more for themselves and teams don't have 5 man voice coms that practice with each other for days on end.

Snowman ArcApr 26, 20182 votes

Professional players mostly play fun picks like assassins when they are on stream. When they actually practice for their team, they play what the team wants to play. If I was a pro player, I'd be obliged to play Galio and Sion mid in scrims or to practice mechanics, but if I wanna stream to get more popular etc, I'm gonna play more fun stuff.

RaiyzaApr 25, 201812 votes

People don't play assassins properly.

If I had a nickel for how many times a fizz or zed just dives head first and tries to combo the enemy adc with their team around them, I'd be fucking rich.

Asssassin's are supposed to wait for the OPPORTUNE moment and take out a priority target. Wait for Janna's shield to go on cooldown, or use her ult. Wait for lulu to use her ult. THEN Go in.

Nope. people are stupid.

Snowman ArcApr 25, 20184 votes

You are right, but when Janna's shield goes down, it's also off cooldown and ready to be used again xD

RaiyzaApr 25, 20184 votes

And that's part of the reason Janna is broken, but shes not the only example.

Corrupt BlissApr 26, 20182 votes

That's wrong. Even with 45% cdr on Janna, the shield cooldown time is about 4 seconds. If you want to point out a broken shield champion look at Lulu :P

Snowman ArcApr 26, 20183 votes

Actually, I main Janna, and at 45% CDR, her shield CD at rank 5 is 5.5 seconds, while the duration is 5 seconds. Essentially, it's ready to be used as it ends. Lulu's shield is alost 5.5 seconds cooldown, but is MUCH weaker and has less duration (4 seconds). Therefore, Janna's shield is much more broken than Lulu's.

Automated RivenApr 26, 20182 votes

Lulu's shield lasts six seconds.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Lulu/Abilities

Also at Max rank janna has a shield of 210 +70%ap and Lulu's is 210 +60%ap

That's 10 shield difference per 100 ap, and then like an extra 4 for the shield heal power.

You should check your facts before running your mouth like that.

ProjecLApr 26, 20181 votes

But Janna's shield also gives AD so not only can the ADC kill somebody faster but also potentially get more lifesteal.

Automated RivenApr 26, 20181 votes

The effects from jannas shield are better. However the actual shield duration is worse and the shield is only slightly better. The conversation had nothing to do with the effects.

Snowman ArcApr 26, 20181 votes

Oh yeah, my bad. I read through it fast enough and saw the 4 seconds on the enemy cast. Guess the extra duration is countered by the lesser strength of the shield, both are op as fuck regardless.

EDIT: Even though I'm so interested in numbers, I never got to realize that Lulu's shield is almost as good as Janna's and has longer duration. Also, Janna grants raw AD, while Lulu grants on-hit bonus damage, so I guess Lulu's shield is better for ADCs, while Janna helps more with bruisers for example that have abilities that scale off AD, like Jarvan, Darius etc (and also ADCs, of course)

Automated RivenApr 26, 20182 votes

Sorry for being a dick about correcting you. I was/am super upset about riven's lore and I let my frustration spill out here.

(But I think jannas shield is better for crit adc's also. It like 150-200 bonus damage depending on her ap and the adc's crit scaling.)

Snowman ArcApr 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2xOpZqb5,comment-id=000600000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-26T14:52:27.530+0000)

Sorry for being a dick about correcting you. I was/am super upset about riven's lore and I let my frustration spill out here.

(But I think jannas shield is better for crit adc's also. It like 150-200 bonus damage depending on her ap and the adc's crit scaling.)

Don't sweat it, it wasn't even that bad.

ThefrostyvikingApr 26, 20181 votes

Cant lulu give attackspeed buffs though?

BobaFlautistApr 25, 201814 votes

Yeah but against players that know what they're doing there is no opportune moment, because a good Janna won't just use q, w, e, and Redemption to help their adc take fucking gromp.

"Well then the tank should go in first" Janna presses Q, the tank doesn't get on the adc. "No wait the tank, then the diver, then the assassin, but only when the adc doesn't have flash or heal up and only if Janna is the only peel"

Do you see the problem?

RaiyzaApr 25, 20184 votes

You are correct, yes. A good support will always keep an assassin away, but there have been so many chances to lock down the support and let our assassin go to town on the ADC or Mid. People just don't see it that way.

There's nothing wrong with a Leona locking down Janna allowing Zed to get his combo off. Just sayin'.

Corrupt BlissApr 26, 20182 votes

A good assassin will kill the support, and then if able, look for the adc. Additionally, I see far too many people play assassins like divers or juggernauts. A proper assassin will weave in and out of a fight. I refer people to LL Stylish on Zed. That man is fantastic at getting into a fight, getting out, and getting back in. He plays mind games and often walks away from 5 man fights with three of the kills.

RaiyzaApr 26, 20182 votes

Thats what im saying! People play Zed and fizz like divers! Its so sad. Then rhey get instantly stunned and killed.

Binding EclipseApr 25, 20183 votes

{quoted} Yeah but against players that know what they're doing there is no opportune moment, because a good Janna won't just use q, w, e, and Redemption to help their adc take fucking gromp.

I ugly-laughed. Thank you for the truth-telling.

IainG10Apr 26, 20181 votes

It's a bit of both; against a good team an assassin will have issues, and currently that needs fixing..

However; there are plenty of people who think that this is a rock-paper-scissors thing, and that assassins have to be able to remove a squishy from within a 5-man team cluster

sho ayaneApr 27, 20181 votes

If q wasn't a knockup, and if r didn't push people away, how would Janna be then? If they removed those and changed it with cc that was affected by tenacity, would that be any better? They nerfed her shield already although it probably needs another one, she is still the highest wr and something has to change. What could be changed about her?

SasogwaApr 25, 201810 votes

We needed the time to git gud

HarrisonOwnsApr 25, 20184 votes

When shields/heals/sustain are out of control and easily spammable assassins are worthless.

FilDaFunkApr 25, 20184 votes

The big problem now is that ADCs are much more powerful. So a good support has a hugely bigger influence.

PsybicilinApr 25, 20184 votes

I laugh when people say the game is balanced around pro play when the assassin class has a fraction of the play rate of mages. Same goes to juggernauts/melee right clickers

DestructoDaveApr 25, 201818 votes

{quoted}

I laugh when people say the game is balanced around pro play when the assassin class has a fraction of the play rate of mages. Same goes to juggernauts/melee right clickers

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/middle

Do people even try to look up stats before they spew nonsense? Thats why it is hard to take anyone seriously on this board. Fraction huh. Thats why LB, Zed, Fizz, Ekko, Katarina, (Yasuo), all in the top 10 of playrates. Thats with LB/Zed/Fizz/Yasuo/Kat having crazy ban-rates, too. Not only that, Zed, Ekko, Fizz are in the top 10 win-rates for midlane champs on top of that.

MarshbouyApr 25, 20185 votes

I think he means a fraction of the play rates of mages in LCS (not soloQ), but that's just my assumption. I may be wrong.

DestructoDaveApr 25, 20186 votes

{quoted}

I think he means a fraction of the play rates of mages in LCS (not soloQ), but that's just my assumption. I may be wrong.

He might. Just pointing out Assassins are played a ton in solo Q. Hell, they even win a ton in solo Q. There are 4 in the top 20 of win-rates. This notion they are just garbage and cant win solo Q games is a real stretch.

MarshbouyApr 26, 20182 votes

{quoted}

He might. Just pointing out Assassins are played a ton in solo Q. Hell, they even win a ton in solo Q. There are 4 in the top 20 of win-rates. This notion they are just garbage and cant win solo Q games is a real stretch.

I do not disagree with that

IainG10Apr 26, 20181 votes

LCS can go fuck itself; 99.999% of players are not LCS and should not have to deal with that shit. Balance around the playerbase, not the pros.

Snowman ArcApr 26, 20181 votes

Balance around the top of the playerbase.

IainG10Apr 26, 20181 votes

If it's a statistically significant portion of the top of the playerbase fine; balancing a few million people around a few hundred is stupid....

Snowman ArcApr 27, 20181 votes

If the few million people are stupid, then you shouldn't balance around those.

IainG10Apr 27, 20181 votes

Anything that is freelo at any level is bad for the game; doesn't matter if it's in Challenger or Bronze. Writing off the end of the game that all the newer players is in is also a good way to lose player influx.

Snowman ArcApr 28, 20181 votes

AT ANY LEVEL. That's the point here. If a champion is only broken because some people are not competent enough to deal with it, then it's not broken. Garen is easy to play against and a very weak champion if you know what to do against him. Anyone above Gold is competent enough to deal with him, while anyone below gold will get stomped. It doesn't mean that Garen is broken just because he is free elo in bronze, it's just that bronzies are trash so they can't deal with him.

ProjecLApr 26, 20181 votes

To be fair LB both has ridiculous damage AND she is a recent rework/revert, so it's a combination of being too strong and people wanting to try her out, just like Ahri is the second pick because she is the other rework/revert in this patch.

Also now change the elo to Diamond and you get the following:

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/middle/diamond

Only LB (recent rework/revert, possibly too strong), Yasuo (undeniably most popular champion in the game no matter how weak or strong he is) and Zed (fun to play, a little too strong cause of random buffs) remain on the top 10 list, with the other 7 being mages (and even LB is a mage technically).

DestructoDaveApr 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

To be fair LB both has ridiculous damage AND she is a recent rework/revert, so it's a combination of being too strong and people wanting to try her out, just like Ahri is the second pick because she is the other rework/revert in this patch.

Also now change the elo to Diamond and you get the following:

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/middle/diamond

Only LB (recent rework/revert, possibly too strong), Yasuo (undeniably most popular champion in the game no matter how weak or strong he is) and Zed (fun to play, a little too strong cause of random buffs) remain on the top 10 list, with the other 7 being mages (and even LB is a mage technically).

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/middle/diamond/by-winrate

(And by the game client, LB is labeled an Assassin)

Thats JUST on play-rate. Tick that over to Win-rate. Talon, Fizz, Kat are in teh top 10 win-rates in DIamond+, with Zed and Ekko slightly out at 12/13. And, Talon is NUMBER 1. Fizz is NUMBER 3. When people around here constantly say Assassins cant do their job, Fizz sucks, yadda yadda yadda, and this is at the highest level where people play the best.

I linked Gold+ because the VAST majority of people on this forum crying constantly about game balance and champ balance fall into the Bronze-Gold Category, so what happens in high elo is really of no consequence to their game. Gold+ is more realistic here. Even at Bronze+, Fizz, Ekko, Yasuo, are in the top 10 win-rates mid. Zed falls slightly out but still played a ton. Hell, if you tick Bronze+ over to play-rate, almost the entire top 10 is nothing but assassins. 3 mages in the top 10 of play-rates Bronze+, and one of them is Ahri which is more like an assassin.

Assassins have huge play-rates in solo Q. They even have huge win-rates. This narrative people keep trying to push on the forums for their bad play on said champs is annoying. I mean one look at actual stats tells you that they are good. The only issue is supports are good, too. So they probably do get shut down by support play from time to time; so be it. I mean they aren't struggling. Fizz is one of the best Solo Q champions you can possibly pick, at any Elo, statistically speaking.

Rins Thigh SocksApr 25, 20183 votes

It's really funny now that assassins are really viable in solo queue (Kha'Zix being the exception) people are telling me, "HAH, I KNEW ASSASSINS AND YASUO WERE GOOD ALL ALONG. AD FAVORITISM."

Athenes LuluApr 26, 20182 votes

Maybe that's why I used to have so much fun playing Lulu support when she was known to be "troll pick" back in the day, because causals always underestimated Lulu support and how she couldn't kill lane like how tanks/mages would. Polymorph has always been the bane of anyone's (except some tanks and mages) existence, shields and all those dank buffs have always been noticeable by allies and ADCs alike, before Riot overbuffed shield stacking just to get casuals to realize the power.

Now that people found out, I can't win as much, and it's no longer as fun. Doesn't feel like a "special snowflake" to be a Lulu main nowadays.

Also, reminder that support as a class has been an overall buff for the past 4 years. Not a surprise to find out how much power they actually have been having all along.

AzadetheApr 27, 20182 votes

Not even a true thread. Assassins make up 4 of the top champ picks and the highest bans in Diamond+. They are near PERMA bans in tournaments.

Katarina Zed Talon Fizz Khazix are all scoring in top 10.

Stop trying to claim they aren't.

As to the rest: Every champ has some direct vulnerabilities. I don't know why you expect Lulu to not have Polymorph.

MohawkBirdApr 25, 20181 votes

[deleted]

Automated RivenApr 26, 20182 votes

^^he is right you know.

BlåbæretApr 26, 20181 votes

Assassins are viable, lmao; just not in pro play.

Also Khazix

Snowman ArcApr 26, 20181 votes

Well, in more high elo play, they are not as effective, since they can get cockblocked easily. But with correct team coordination, you can bait out protection tools to let them do some work.

Titanium70Apr 26, 20182 votes

Actually most Assassins Winrates increase with elo - not decrease. Talon Fizz Zed

Snowman ArcApr 26, 20182 votes

That's maybe because higher elo players don't blindly go 1v2 and expect to get a kill and survive. That's what I said. The 1v2 in bronze can be done easily. 1v2 in challenger is much harder. But, if for example, you get a Jarvan jumping on Janna-Jinx and Janna has to R to keep him away, then Zed can move in and destroy Jinx. That's a smart play that mostly happens in higher elo, which is why assassins see more success there.

AzadetheApr 27, 20181 votes

They're in pro play if they are not banned.

They take up 5 of the top 10 picks in the game, as well as ban rates.

P.S. I've played Zed a total of 2 times since 2014. I can still pick him up and automatically go 13/8. If I mained him, I could probably 20/1 him regularly. (His Key/skill orders are hard for my fingers to manage picking up off a cold play, but just by button mashing I can 13/8. If I actually learned to use my fingers correctly, I could 1 second kill anyone but tanks, and kill them in 2-3 seconds in most cases).