@Riot, Cassiopeia needs YOUR help!

Canastus··74 votes·6,940 views

http://imgur.com/5srl5yu

I know, you guys can't impossibly respond to every single piece of feedback but at least lend us Casslovers some of your attention. I'm sure you've seen the many objections regarding the rework before it went live, apparently they weren't so misguided after all. Not only did her winrate reach an all-time new low (35%), it also alienated countless Cass mains out there. And what do you know, the amount of complaints has almost doubled since then.

I could talk about her issues for HOURS (why not read RiotStashu's thread instead?) but I'll try to go straight to the core problem: Cassiopeia's laning phase is horrendous. Most of your time you're either facing an assassin or a high ranged spellcaster with great poke who can harass you with ease. Sometimes you also face control mages like Orianna who simply negate your poke and outtrade you at any given opportunity.

Your only chance of beating those champions is to shut them down before they reach level 6 or have their core item(s), so you've automatically lost your lane by picking Cass. This reworked snakelady has absolutely no early kill potential and has to stay at tower during the entirety of the laning-phase if she doesn't want to feed the enemy jungler over and over again. Once they've hit their power-spike, they'll dive you after you're low enough. And they're going to do it, over and over again.

You can't even protect yourself since your mana-pool will be at a constant low thus making any retaliation impossible. And pray to god you're not facing someone like Zed since it'll take you ages before you have that Zhonya's Hourglass. By that time he'll be already snowballing thus costing your team most likely the game. What's even worse, there's no one with the least amount of understanding for this predicament. So far every single teammate refered to this Cassiopeia as being useless since she lacks the power to do ANYTHING.

Old Cass was very much capable of dealing with various counterpicks since she had good poke which also enabled her to farm safely while harassing the opponent from time to time. Combined with her old passive, she had surprisingly good sustain in terms of constant damage output. This new Cass has absolutely no means of reducing the health of her opponents beforehand without going ham and wasting insane amounts of mana.

Infact she can't even partake at ganks anymore since she'll be already out of mana once her jungler arrives. In the end she won't recieve support from her own team, no matter how pushed back her lane is, since no jungler wants to feed an opponent who is at full health and has a higher level than them while you're stuck sitting at your tower.

The issue remains that Cassiopeia's current laning experience is terribly onesided due to reducing your lane-activity for the first 20-25 minutes to constant farming and cowering in fear once someone looks into your direction. Her poke is laughable and only serves to gather stacks now, a reward-system which works terribly delayed and has no other purpose besides resetting your E.

And here we are at the root of her problems, her Twin Fang. This ability was NEVER meant to be her main source of damage. If you compare her 'total damage dealt against champions' at the end of a game, you'll realize that she struggles to even keep up with ap supports now. Old Cass dealt the majority of her damage via poke, that's how this game is played most of the time. And by god, don't get me started on the mana costs for this thing once you've fully leveled it. You'll cast less Twin Fangs than you did before with the old passive.

If you're a squishy immobile mage you should never go ham, especially against a healthy opponent - and even if they're low you have to consider your positioning. This utter reliance on a short range single target damage ability is simply impractical which makes Cassiopeia an even more situational champion than she was before, the risk/reward-ratio is entirely skewed to her disadvantage now.

Should you ever fall back, you might as well surrender since you're forcing your team to 4v5. Once teamfights start, it becomes almost impossible to farm due to your teammates taking all the cs from you. Your only source of stacks will be from applying poke, it's too bad you'll most likely die the moment you try to do so. Even if you manage to get ahead in score, it'll take you at least 35 minutes to gather enough stacks - if you avoid feeding, it'll take 40 minutes. Should you die or simply get pushed out of lane, you'll never reach that amount.

Cassiopeia used to be a risky champion who, despite all odds, was capable of making comebacks since she had great ratios to back her up. Now she's an unreliable pick with an incredibly delayed powerspike who can't even deal with counterpicks anymore. She's entirely at the mercy of her opponents and is unable of helping her team until she reaches her lategame - and that is if you weren't camped to death before, which will happen A LOT. And even if you managed to survive a fight, you can't take objectives like raidmonsters since you'd need a full mana-bar to do so. Old Cass never had those problems.

I dare say she's worse off than Poppy now (at least she can make herself invincible) - Cass' disappointing early to midgame performance makes her entirely reliant on getting carried by her team. There's no chance for you to carry the game before the 40 minute mark and once that point in time has come, the game has been decided already.

You seriously need to consider lowering the stackcap or giving her new ways of gathering additional poison-stacks. Maybe even make her poison apply Grievous Wounds to opponents so her poke might finally leave a mark so they can't instantly recover from her pitiful damage - using your poison should cripple your opponents, not tickle them. And if nothing else helps, you could at least raise the ratios on her Q and W so she may actually deal damage again.

Your initial goals were to make her a more reliable/viable pick while increasing her dps - in the end you didn't fullfill any of those goals. Her damage-output is even more unreliable now while her new gameplay forces her to be more cautious than ever before. The numbers you had in mind may have seemed quite nice on paper but the results are vastly different if applied to reality.

Sincerely, a very disappointed EUW Cassiopeia main.

119 Comments

Tuesday34 votes

Everything in this post is spot-on. As a person who's mained Cassi since she was released, I've actually had to shelve her.

The rework misidentified her one unique thing as a champion, focusing on the supposed Twin Fangs hypercarry. But this was never Cassi's unique characteristic, nor was it her strength. She was a poison pressure champion, applying a slow burn until the fights got to manageable numbers, then skirmishing and cleaning up with Twin Fangs.

The update took this away from her, leaving us with a heavily handicapped Ryze clone. She's Ryze without the survivability, massive spell vamp, or reliability. She's all the weaknesses of original Cassi and none of the strengths, and now it's compounded by what is possibly the worst laning phase in the game.

There's no way to get ahead. There's no way to stay even. Picking Cassi now means losing your lane horribly, due to pitiful poke, unreliable flow, high-risk engage ranges and enormous mana costs. Before, a strong poke-and-skirmish focused kit meant she could get ahead in lane and try to carry that momentum through to a 30-35 minute win. Now she simply loses her lane and the game shortly thereafter, leaving her with the worst win rate in League.

Furthermore, her new passive encourages passive gameplay, making her laning as dull as Nasus, but with none of the power to back it up. Two of her spells feel entirely superfluous. She's just not fun anymore.

Please bring back Cassi's identity as a poison mage. We don't need a crippled Ryze clone. We don't need a hamstrung Nasus AFK farming mid for 40 minutes. Throw out the passive, put more of her damage and ratios into her poison again, and give us our beloved poison-skirmisher snake lady back.

Thryale22 votes

The feels man. I know the feels. Sadly, I doubt riot even cares at this point.

I could talk till I'm blue in the face about how cass's laning phase is as bad as, if not worse than, veigar's and how her dmg archtype has been changed to be very ryze-like minus the durability ryze enjoys. But it won't accomplish anything, will it?

I tried to participate in riot stachu's thread, as did many high lvl cass mains. (I'm not a cass main, but I do enjoy the champ)

Sadly, now, every time I see a cass in champ select, I groan to myself knowing they won't be of any help to the team. At least a veigar has a monster late game if the game drags out, and untill then he has some actual utility with his giant team stun gate.

Rothmi14 votes

I feel like we could all rant about how much we all hate the new Cass, but that just what I hate right now, is how stubborn Riot can be. Normally it's within reason, but this is absurd. No one likes the new Cass.

And what irks me the most is that, how long was this on pbe? I'm honestly asking anyone. Because I feel like this was some newbie mistake on how quickly this went from pbe to live, it only felt like a day or two. That was the worse of it because even then no one wanted to play her because she was no good! Riot rushed this just to try to make her more "viable" but actually just shows to me that they didn't know at all what they were doing and did this stupid paintbrush method that they apply to, you guessed it, Champion Nerfs. They did the same thing to Riven and Kha and what they are doing now to Soraka.

It makes me sad to see these happen to good champs; while they say they are trying to make it fair for everyone their actions are the exact opposite. I'm with you Thryale

Slavvik12 votes

I feel like we could all rant about how much we all hate the new Cass, but that just what I hate right now, is how stubborn Riot can be. Normally it's within reason, but this is absurd. No one likes the new Cass.

This. Exactly this. They need to come out and admit that they did something stupid and just own up to it. Instead they're just hiding behind some 'vacation' and not saying a THING about it. Come on Riot. Own up. This was your decision, the community HATES it, now own up to it.

Rothmi4 votes

Was just on the forum for RiotStashu's thread about it (where every cass player goes to die) and about 3 hours ago he actually responded a statement about problems... Woot! Yet this is still an extraordinarily slow process and I expected more from Riot, its good to hear we aren't falling on dept ears. I don't take back what I said, and hope their is an official statement on the matter, but progress none the less.

Essilyn5 votes

No one likes the new Cass.

Except for the Rioter who thought up of these ideas who is probably like, "THEY'RE ALL WRONG! MY VERSION IS CASS IS AMAZING! Alright, time to go play Teemo."

On a serious note, I hope you guys get some attention on this. I tried her because she was free and she wasn't quite my cup of tea.

Auryiel5 votes

When I first saw the changes on PBE, I'll admit I read through them very quickly. What I saw was Twing Fangs being a bit better late game and not as good early, but giving you more resets, the ult becoming more reliable and the passive being changed. The Twing Fangs and ult changes seemed really awesome to me (let's be honest, those spells should have ALWAYS worked that way) and the passive... Well the 400 cap to me seemed like something to help Cass maintain some strength in the very late game. Overall I was happy.

Then I saw the horrible changes to her Q and W damage and I immediately knew this would be a disaster. As others have said, Cassiopeia's identity was that of a poison mage who pokes pokes pokes, then counter engages with her ulti when her enemies have had enough and who cleans up fights with her high sustained damage. That identity was just completely erased. My only comfort was that I thought she'd be on the PBE for several weeks. Nope. This rework was rushed and it feels awful.

I don't feel the need to talk about all her problems, the opening post did that very well. All I wanna say is this : meet us halfway and bring back some damage into her poisons.

p.s. What I'll miss the most is flashing for that Q under tower and turning back, knowing I'm about to score a kill.

Kaosune10 votes

There's only one thing I disagree with; Poppy's not weak; she just can't handle laning due to her poor lane farming abilities. :( Cass is still beyond unviable though. She makes Urgot look like Fizz.

ShadowParker4 votes

That comparison though hahaha

MrSlowDie8 votes

I am not a cass main, but goddamn i love DoT (poison) well since I played some many other games, when everyone just dealing crazy amount of damage, you just spit your poison and avoid every shot they throw on you. the poison will kill them slowly.. slowly but deadly. And I saw a lot of cass's main complaining about her identity, because most of them played her for that poison thing

Rito please keep her identity !!

This DoT has a counterplay, DoT is about time, you have to buy much amount of time, if they have a shot right in your face before the DoT kill your prey then you'll most likely done. IIRC skills like zhonya is counterplay too,

when i am thinking about a poison and a snake, it will be a squishy, slow, and has no escape mechanic, a poison throwing machine that trust her teammates to protect her in a teamfight. And if this teammates somehow managed to buy her a bunch of time, then this little snake, with her poison, can kill a very big and fed animal.

========

And an idea that i'd love to see, a poison that infect from poisoned champ to a non-poisoned champ by coming closer, this will disrupt the enemy's team, breaking their formation, and they have to decide... to keep their distance from the poisoned one and losing him, or yolo let's kill that snake together before the poison kill us completely

5G8Nri0B548 votes

I'll add one more to your list of problems.

SHE ISN'T EVEN A POISON CHAMPION ANYMORE. Her main source of damage is funnelled into the worst designed ability in her entire kit. Her Passive is the complete antithesis on how Poison should work (aha! I poisoned you! This logically means my biceps are growing stronger while practically nothing happens to you!)! She lost what made her fun in pre-rework.

Her Poison isn't farging satisfying to land anymore. And if you do land it, Zed or any champion with CC just comboes you to death because they're not afraid of your counter-attacks.

Seth the Bum7 votes

I remember when I was a newb and thought that the best way to play Cassi was to just use your poisons to allow you to spam Twin Fang. After playing her a while, I realized that Twin Fang may be spam-able, but it's not wise to focus on it unless it's safer to get in close, because its range simply doesn't allow you to use it very safely and you'll die if you get in that close. Twin Fang also had less damage per cast than Noxious Blast. When I started to focus more on Noxious Blast instead, I noticed I was not only able to die less, but also really enjoyed using subtle DoTs instead of a spammed targeted ability.

I think the problem is a lot of people see Cassi the way I did when I was inexperienced with her. I remember one time I commented on some Riot news post several months ago and I stated that Cassi's true power lied in her DoTs. My comment was down-voted into oblivion while some dope replied that her true power lied in Twin Fang. Yeah, sure, Twin Fang can probably have a higher DPS overall if you are willing to get close enough to get killed, but you'll die before they do. Not only does Noxious Blast give a bunch of movement speed, which when combined with Miasma's slow, really lets you kite well, but I bet most people also see Noxious Blast's delay as a hindrance. The delay of Noxious Blast actually gives the ability even more range when used properly, as it allows you to cast it before an enemy comes within range, and when predicted correctly, they'll run right into it.

I think maybe this rework was designed with an inexperienced view on Cassi, because it shifted a ton of power away from her DoTs and into her E. All of that bonus AP you'll get from Cassi's new passive might even out with the newly lowered AP ratios of her abilities in late game, but your early and mid game will be so heavily hampered that you likely won't get that far. Oh and of course now you'll have to focus even more heavily on mana or mana regen items than before, so there's that, too. I tried to shift my play style a little to adapt to this change but trying to focus on last-hitting with Twin Fang to regain mana felt like a lost cause because you had to first poison the minions as well so you can use E more than once ever ~5 seconds, so it's like you have to spend more mana than you'll even get back. I don't really care for the rework of Cassi but at least it's not as drastic as Soraka's, I suppose.

Neo Cyrus7 votes

They're increasing Q to 0.45 and giving her 10 mana per level more. That's their way of saying they don't give a shit what anyone says and that they're right and everyone is wrong.

Cassiopeia is gone, we'll just have to move on. The "reworks" have been nothing short of sickening, Sona and now this. No more. This is beyond frustrating, I need to convince my friends to move to a difference game with me.

Nahara6 votes

Please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but isn't a weak laning phase one of the points of a late-game scaling hyper carry? Aren't they supposed to be really weak in the early and mid game because they get terrifyingly powerful in the late game?

Canastus14 votes

Every single hypercarry in this game, except for Cass, has some kind of backup mechanic to secure their survival.

Poppy has her ultimate, Veigar got his insane stun-cage, Vayne has her stealth and gapcloser, Nasus has great tankyness, Ryze has reliable cc, durability and sustain (also having a kit made up of point & click abilities is a great advantage) and Tristana has her hilariously broken rocketjump and ultimate to peel for herself. And let's not forget the great Karthus who comes with an amazingly strong slow, great poke (his skittles are very good to harass and farm with) and a great passive which allows him to finish off his opponents after he died.

Those are pretty much all the hypercarries which come to my mind right now. And they're all capable of snowballing if getting fed early on whereas Cass is entirely restricted to her stack-system.

Skia Asteri2 votes

Sejuani is a better AP hyper carry than Cass now in my opinion, my friend's Sej jungle out damages me when I play Cass where before I out damaged them. And Sej is far harder to kill because she is a tank.

0fficerJenny11 votes

The problem is that she never becomes a late game hyper carry because she needs to collect stacks which is impossible to do with her extremely weak early game. If she was a scaling champ like trist, kog or veig or even ryze she would be fine, but because she is stack dependent her whole game plan has to be get stacks which with her innate squishiness often just results in her getting ganked as she offer extends for them and then having Cassi never recover from it.

Skia Asteri4 votes

It is possible to build stacks quickly in the early game, just not against players that are even slightly above intermediate bot skill level. I got 200 stacks in like 12 minutes playing with lower level friends while soloing bot lane because the other team's two bot laners would completely ignore my W. So depending on how quickly they cleared minions they would sometimes sit in it for the full duration. (they were Graves and Draven, and the life steal from their doran blades was enough to heal all the damage from W).

I went 15/0 that game, and it lasted about 25 minutes (and I got max stacks slightly before the end).

TL;DR

Your opponent(s) need to sit in W to mock you in order to build stacks fast enough to hyper carry.

Kaosune11 votes

Please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but isn't a weak laning phase one of the points of a late-game scaling hyper carry? Aren't they supposed to be really weak in the early and mid game because they get terrifyingly powerful in the late game?

weak to the point of ALWAYS losing the laning phase? No.

Tuesday14 votes

You're correct that a weak laning phase is a hallmark of a hypercarry, but Cassi isn't a hypercarry. She wasn't before and she isn't now. Her kit has always been unreliable, and the combination of short-range spells, extreme squishiness exacerbated by a mana-heavy kit, zero poke, poor disengage, no moveblocks, and a desperate need to overextend and push the wave to get stacks all rolls up into the most atrocious laning phase I've ever experienced.

She can't get farmed or stacked. She can only get ganked and slaughtered and yelled at for being useless as things are now. She's been my main since release, but the rework has been not only a straight numbers nerf, it also removed all of her strengths with no compensation and taken away all the fun parts of her kit, replacing it with passive, no-agency gameplay.

Brindale8 votes

You're correct that a weak laning phase is a hallmark of a hypercarry, but Cassi isn't a hypercarry. She wasn't before and she isn't now. Her kit has always been unreliable, and the combination of short-range spells, extreme squishiness exacerbated by a mana-heavy kit, zero poke, poor disengage, no moveblocks, and a desperate need to overextend and push the wave to get stacks all rolls up into the most atrocious laning phase I've ever experienced.

She can't get farmed or stacked. She can only get ganked and slaughtered and yelled at for being useless as things are now. She's been my main since release, but the rework has been not only a straight numbers nerf, it also removed all of her strengths with no compensation and taken away all the fun parts of her kit, replacing it with passive, no-agency gameplay.

I think Rito tried to make Cass into a stacking champion like Nasus/Veigar/Sion, but it doesn't really work out that well. Nasus builds like a moving wall and Q stacks for days, builds lw and then eats your turrets, Veigar can eventually one shot people late-game(and beat on turrets), and Sion can stack crit items and E his way to infinite health (lategame of course).

The problem with Cass, isn't necessarily the cap on the passive, but the fact that the passive requires you get fed/have enough farm to get a bunch of AP. This either means you run a bunch of HP/HpS/Gp10 runes, have your jungler set up that tent mid-lane, or lane against either a really stupid person, or a bad pick against Cass (Teemo.... uh.. Actually can't think of anybody else. Anybody with no real gap closer/no burst tbh, but I doubt you're going to lane against mundo or some other meat tank.).

Yes, sustain on your E is nice, but unless your enemy midlaner goes "Oh look, Cass is half health and is getting some health back from E'ng minions. I think Imma just chill under turret/afk," you're not going to be able to use it much.

Anyways, main point being, with assassins back in the midlane and toplane being the home of beatdown bruisers, and Leona/Thresh/Blitz being popular in botlane, Cass is kind of screwed atm.

Zarkkast6 votes

+1 I only had two games as Cass so far because I'm short on time to play.

  1. I was against Xerath and needless to say I lost terribly. He simply one shoted me with his Q and forced me to back, couldn't even waveclear. My only chance of survival relied on my skill to sidestep his skills, which is not something anyone would accomplish all the time. Didn't help that we had a jungler Akali that only ganked once and pre-level 6, since now she's even more reliant on her team than before.

  2. Was against another Cassiopeia and managed to win. But this is what she's been reduced to. Her only chance of winning is playing against herself or playing against a worse player. Even by the end of the game I still hadn't gotten to 400 stacks, was at around 370. The other Cassiopeia had finished all the stacks, but ONLY because she leveled her Q first and that is one of the reasons she lost her lane to me, because the only viable option for Cassiopeia now is level your E first, there's no other option.

The only thing I disagree with you is concerning her mana. Once she's got her tear she doesn't really have any mana problems if you're farming correctly with your E. The only problem is that to farm with your E you can put yourself at danger since the range is substantially smaller than her other skills.

Riot, please reconsider this, even if it takes you months. Funny how you're always so quick to nerf, but never quick to buff. You've already nerfed Nidalee (still took you long enough) and haven't yet even touched LeBlanc who has been thrown to the depths of win rate ever since her nerf, which was before Nidalee's rework.

ObscureClockwork6 votes

Honestly, riot could have went a far better direction with this. A poison mage doesn't have to be a "fire and forget, haha DoTs" mage. Poison is much more than that.

If the fire and forget playstyle is so bad (and you still keep ziggs in his current state, despite him being exactly that) why not capitalize on the fact that ITS FKING POISON. You want to make twin fang hurt more? You want to make her more balzy? want her to stay in the fight?

Instead of rewarding her with what seems to be a heal on Twin fangs and a small buff to her ratios (unless its lich bane/nashors people are building on her now) after farming a fktonne, why not give her damage increases on poisoned enemies?

For each second an enemy is poisoned by Cassiopeia, they gain a stack of toxify . Each stack of toxify increases damage done to that enemy by cassiopeia by 7%, stacking multiplicatively. toxify halves every second the enemy is not poisoned by cassiopeia, rounding down. Toxify can be stacked to a maximum of 10 stacks. Adjust numbers to balance her.

Or, if you don't like increasing her damage directly, embrace the fact that she is dps (built for killing tanky ppls) For each second an enemy is poisoned by Cassiopeia, they gain a stack of toxify . Each stack of toxify reduced enemy armor and magic resist by 7%, stacking additively. toxify halves every second the enemy is not poisoned by cassiopeia, rounding down. Toxify can be stacked to a maximum of 10 stacks. again, adjust numbers to balance her.

Her theme is poison. Make her actually poison her enemies. Her theme is not farming minions.

Honestly a lot of AP doesn't do much for you if your ratios aren't actually that high, and your bases aren't that high.

AquariusGine5 votes

There is not much else I can say.

Her winrate in diamond is excruciatingly painful to look it (35-38%). Her mid-game needs drastic buffs, and early game shouldn't be so punishing.

Did you know her E has a dangerously short range, taking ratios off her kiting abilities and placing complete emphasis on E needs to be revised. Vayne has a better mid-game and almost twice as much DPS lategame. She doesn't have to rely on a difficult skillshot to deal damage. She also has an entire team dedicated to peeling for her.

If you truly want Cassiopeia to be a true hyper-carry, she certainly needs a buff.. there are lots of creative options on forums.

  • Such as increasing her survivability, through shields, spell vamp, increased base armor/health etc.
  • Less punishing early and mid game
  • More range to E.
  • Fix E 0.7s CD bug
  • and very importantly lower the CAP stacks from 400 to 300. She needs to be at maximum power at 300 stacks because she's been useless all game.

What I listed above are not very specific because I want to keep this post short.

Spiritun4 votes

Please no. Give poison DoT or RIOT!

Rothmi5 votes

The this is that she needs all of these to make her viable, which Riot will be unwilling to do. Because then they would be admitting that they were wrong. So we're all stuck in this vicious cycle that Riot won't admit they were wrong and no matter what we do about it they won't respond because these are so certain this is the better way.

Linna Excel5 votes

This is why I'm not looking forward to soraka's rework. Also for a rework to come in under a 40% win rate, riot's balance team is officially abysmal again. I don't know what's going on in PBE for this to go live, but they need to get their act together.

My thoughts from the other day.

ShadowParker4 votes

Personally the old cassio was just fine... Had they just made the ult more reliable and made her q give vision, she would been perfectly fine.

The new cassio, is garbage. Not even a poison identity anymore... she was a true poison charcter, the others don't depend on it like she used to. (twitch, teemo)

Snowball4Damage4 votes

As a former Cass main i can also say that even when i manage to do well with her, she no longer feels unique, or powerful, or even remotely fun. This rework has ruined everything i used to love about her, by making those things useless or gone. Please revert the changes rito

Hinagiku334 votes

Removing Cassiopeia's poke, mana-cost reduction, and wave-clear while demanding her to spam high-cost spells to grind stacks just to get to the point where she used to be at by default was just cruel. To come out and say that it isn't nerf is woefully naive and downright deceptive. To genuinely believe that these changes would actually make her any better in literally any capacity is insanity.

Please Riot, we beg you, just revert this rework. We know that you can, we know how digital files and patches work and that it would be just as easy to switch her back as it was to destroy her like this. If you want to do something with her still, fine, but for the love of God don't make us play with this new terrible kit until you finally get around to it. This rework should have been hotfix reverted by now...

Slavvik3 votes

Sigh... the feels... I agree 90%! I don't think that decreasing her stacking time will help as much as we'd like, even with a crap ton of AP, having low ratios just bottlenecks any effectiveness that AP may have had. I don't think any kind of solution can exist without tweaking those back up as well.

Rekka7773 votes

I tried her a couple of times in ranked with no luck, people just abusing her awful laning phase to insane degree, so I figured I'd try her 1 more time in a normal game today, I actually made it through the laning phase, only to realize, I still did nothing. In team fights my Q was super hard to hit, which I literally needed to hit for my E to do any damage and not go on a 4 second CD, and after I actually did hit a Q and a couple of E's and got my opponent down to a little above half health, on the 1 person I was doing damage to out of 2 or 3 that were trying to kill me in a fight, I was usually dead. For having such an awful laning phase and still ending up being 0/1/3 with 250 CS at 30 minutes, I feel like I should be allowed to have some kind of impact in a fight aside from apparently being a target that is more than easy to kill since both her main damage sources are freaking melee range.

Moonshade3 votes

I agree the new Cass takes forever to ramp up, I was playing her in a game and was lucky to have a strong early game team to keep me safer so I could get stacked, but mostly until she hits at least her 200 stack point she will be doing peanut damage, her only saving grace being the strong slow on W and her speed buff on Q to keep people off of you. I like the idea behind the rework of making her a late game monster but hate how they implemented it. Her passive is impossible to stack at a moderate rate, the earliest you can get it maxed is 30 minutes no questions asked unless your lane opponent is just that bad.

Also her methods of getting stacks are too slow or unreliable: The poison on champions adding stacks works well but at the same time it doesn't give you kill incentive until late game since "If they're still alive i'm still getting stacks," a change that could be remedied by giving her a burst of stacks on kill or assist (like 20-25 stacks), that way your jungler can help you get to the point where you can last on your own (about the 200 stack mark). The other stacking method of course is CSing poisoned creeps which is easy with the mana refund on E now and the cooldown reset kinda... The easy fix for that would be to give her a Cho'Gath style of indication for when she can E to kill a unit.

Still these won't allow you to last in lane as much as the old Cass Kit since her old kit had monster damage on her Q and W for poke while her E could be used to go in and finish weakened targets with a barrage of fangs. But at the same time Riot through this rework emphasized they want her early game to be weak as weak can be so to kinda stick with that theme but allow Cass players some more leeway in their play style, I propose either adding an additional AP ratio onto her Q and W at 100 stacks, adding more base damage to them every 50 stacks, or (my personal favourite solution) make it so when a target is under the effect of Q and W you get double stacks and they suffer current % HP damage, nothing huge just like maybe 3-5% every second that both poisons are stacked on a target (and Miasma lasts what 2 seconds after a target leaves the area?) so its very counterable but strong at the same time letting you poke better & you know last better in lane

The final thing I would modify about Cass is the mechanic of her Q, I get the delay is for the sake of counter play so people can dodge but I've run into issues with it not resetting the CD if I quick Q>E a minion or something as the delay prevents the reset check at the start of the firing so just adding a double check or reducing the delay on Q to the length of the E animation (and thus the check time) would be useful for her so you can just Q and E a minion to CS it for stacks.

Riot really hamstrung Cassiopea with this patch but the idea is there under all this nasty weakness, if they turn her poisons back into something that people need to be afraid to be hit by, and make stack building easier on her then I feel we will see her win rate jump back up to where it was before. (but seriously the damage on her poisons right now is pathetic, I was laning vs a Gragas and he didn't even try to dodge them since his passive healed it all back with one spell tick, I could throw down Miasma and he would just chill in it (which was fine by me) while CSing occasionally taking a drink to keep his HP up...)

MakersF2 votes

Great post!

For E reset I think the best is check on cast, then if the target wasn't poisoned check again on hit. This way you can QE and the travel time of E covers for the delay of Q, but still keeps the fast reset if the target is already poisoned.

Just a reminder that I add to almost every post, with a Q you can usually last hit 2 minions with E early (unless all your minions spread their dmg evenly on all the wave, which happens really rarely), so you can consistently last hit with E only when 2*3% max mana = 40 (if you have Q level 1, which sometimes is not true)

So you need max mana = 667 to last hit with QE. At level 6 you have 550 Mana, and rarely you have tear before level 4 (unless you agree to lose like a couple full waves). So her level 1-6 not only offers no dmg and needs to only focus on last hitting and can not trade, but she can not even sustain, nor consistently build the stacks (thus not only offering no dmg etc etc) . This is a positive feedback loop..

yellowbricks3 votes

I hope they remove this stack nonsense. I did not buy cass just to play like veigar for half an hour before I can do anything comparable to easier mid champs.

Hopefully now that I've posted on their reddit love child forum I will have a 1% better chance of being heard.

Quepha3 votes

what the fuck, riot?

Canastus3 votes

what the fuck, riot?

These people know no compassion at all. They couldn't care less if their rework gutted a champion into utter unviability. They simply walk away, hoping that everyone will forget about it eventually. We mustn't let them get away with this, no matter what.

Rubber Jesus3 votes

Why hasn't a Rioter actually made a comment on this rework in over 2 weeks. Everyone hates it, and wants the poison aspect back. Yet all we hear from is: we don't want her to be a poison mage and changed her to a hyper-carry mage. It'd be nice to have someone respond.

Her pick rate dropped to nothing and her win rate dropped to nothing. Pre-rework, she was at a good 50% winrate with a decent following and a pickrate that showed she was not a high-priority, OP mage.

Then Riot gives the rework to someone who doesn't even play her. Look up Riot Stashu and you will see he rarely plays her in ranked, and doesn't even play her well when he does.

This whole thing is sad to me. I wish there was an old server out there somewhere that play previous versions of patches, like the old WoW servers that only have content up to certain expansions.

And all we get in return is: Silence. :'(

Kowe The Ewok2 votes

I just utterly hate her new passive and rework. Stacking is boring and disallows roaming. Her scaling is horrible. Relying on 1 skill only is un-fun. Her build options have severely decreased.

Shandersey2 votes

Really Riot just say something at this point. If this is how the little guy is treated just because nobody would hear him, then my time, money, and faith is better spent elsewhere.

Canastus2 votes

Looks like 4.18 will be without any Cass changes.

What a terrible disappointment and waste of our time.

Canastus2 votes

Looks like my fears were actually confirmed. Not a single trace of any further Cass changes in 4.18. They're simply going to pretend as if nothing ever happened and leave her to rot.

Do not let them get away with this. Keep those threads up every single day until they give in.

BF1234567891 votes

ITT bad players. Like Cass is overpowered if anything. Learn to play.

Canastus4 votes

ITT bad players. Like Cass is overpowered if anything. Learn to play.

Either you're entirely oblivious of the rework or you're seriously this convinced of an inherently flawed design. We're talking about a champion who managed to break all negative records with a 29% winrate during the first two weeks.

There's a reason why her stats are in the gutter, she's worse than ever before. And before you try to bring up the free-week-card, please take a hard look on her ranked winrate - especially on diamond elo. She has yet to surpass 44% after the latest patch, even in Korea.

BF1234567891 votes

ITT bad players. Like Cass is overpowered if anything. Learn to play.

Either you're entirely oblivious of the rework or you're seriously this convinced of an inherently flawed design. We're talking about a champion who managed to break all negative records with a 29% winrate during the first two weeks.

There's a reason why her stats are in the gutter, she's worse than ever before. And before you try to bring up the free-week-card, please take a hard look on her ranked winrate - especially on diamond elo. She has yet to surpass 44% after the latest patch, even in Korea.

She's 46% right now. A perfectly balanced number for a hypercarry. Stop trying to fix what isn't broken.

The Queen Viper5 votes

She's 46% right now. A perfectly balanced number for a hypercarry. Stop trying to fix what isn't broken.

46% is horribad. Her winrate was 52% before these nerfs, when she WASN'T a "hypercarry" lulz. This new Cass is trash and the old Cass was miles better.

Wake up bro.

BF1234567891 votes

She's 46% right now. A perfectly balanced number for a hypercarry. Stop trying to fix what isn't broken.

46% is horribad. Her winrate was 52% before these nerfs, when she WASN'T a "hypercarry" lulz. This new Cass is trash and the old Cass was miles better.

Wake up bro.

It's really nice that Riot doesn't listen to bad players.

The Queen Viper4 votes

It's really nice that Riot doesn't listen to bad players.

Apparently they did since we have these changes and the rework now. If they would have listened the community feedback and us, real Cass mains instead, things would be different.

Get a grip bro and stop trolling.

BF1234567891 votes

It's really nice that Riot doesn't listen to bad players.

Apparently they did since we have these changes and the rework now.

Get a grip bro and stop trolling.

I bet you blame your bad play on "EUW lag" too lol. Get good. Your whole region is joke btw. Beaten by Kabum lol.

The Queen Viper4 votes

I bet you blame your bad play on "EUW lag" too lol. Get good. Your whole region is joke btw. Beaten by Kabum lol.

Nice troll bro... you can go back to your cave now.

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