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How is reducing jungle EXP supposed to address any of the issues jungle has?

Yenn··18 votes·10,740 views

Primarily the issue where you become unable to even attempt to play the game if any one of the following happens:

  • You're playing an off-meta jungle against a meta jungle.
  • You can't duel the opposing jungle.
  • Your solo lanes are hard countered.
  • Your solo lanes are playing champions that can't duel.
  • One of your lanes is getting dumpstered.
  • You die to the enemy jungle before level 4.

If any one of these scenarios occurs, you're removed from the game, especially in high elo.

The enemy jungle uses their advantage to AFK farm your jungle, and you're dead if they catch you. You can't maintain vision of all entrances, and what little vision you try to maintain, they quickly clear. Assuming they even need to; if you having a scaling champion in mid lane or a non-aggressive bottom lane, you can know exactly where the enemy jungle is and not be able to do anything about it, because your team mates are unable to respond.

I really don't see how the planned jungle changes are going to do anything to make this situation even remotely better. If anything, it's going to make it worse, because you're going to need every camp to keep up with the solo lanes.

22 Comments

Kovorix11 votes

Because they are not even trying to fix it.

iV0lt4GE5 votes

That goes for almost anything nowadays, and that which they try to fix is basicly just nerfing it to the ground. Funny enough, in the 10 year anniversary we had last week, we saw a lot of new and exciting things... a good balance team was not one of them.

Kovorix1 votes

I mean it would be good if they would nerf things. But everything gets nerfed except for damage that is allways getting buffed.

Metal Janna6 votes

I don't even play jungle, but after last time it didn't work, I don't expect it to work this time.

heroikc4 votes

They're forcing junglers to essentially become pseudo-dual laners.

TehNACHO6 votes

It's probably more apt to call them by their S1 name: Roaming Support

iV0lt4GE1 votes

You mean like in Dota 2 with Earthshaker, Tusk etc.

heroikc1 votes

{quoted}

It's probably more apt to call them by their S1 name: Roaming Support

I thought that was S2. Need to review jungle history again...

Rewt2 votes

IIRC they are buffing early jungle but nerfing its scaling. This makes the early game impact of a jungler easier but tones down its impact throughout the game if they aren't already doing well (cause snowballing is flavor of the season)

Really it comes down to the question of how long do you want game times. The proposed changes (To my understanding at least. We will have to see how they play out) is to empower jungle early game but reduce their dominance as the game goes on.

The major problem with this as I see it is that all its going to do is make snowballing as a jungler even more potent. The reason for this view is that if you get ahead of the enemy jungler, because catchup XP is reduced, and jungle camp XP scaling is worse. This means that once you get ahead you can begin to chain ganks and get much further ahead, where the enemy jungler is fighting an already uphill battle, but now with a 100lb workout vest slapped on for good measure.

While I disagree with their changes, we will have to see how this pans out. One of the key issues with balancing the jungle is that you need to balance the value of the jungle to incentivize ganking vs s5 Devourer jerk off in the jungle for 30 min and come out of the jungle with the ability to 1v9. they want to reduce its impact on games, but in doing this they keep nerfing the jungle XP and gold. All this does is force junglers to play gank heavy if they want to stay relevant in a match. This means that the changes are having the opposite effect as they are forced into a more game impacting position if they want to even exist.

fixing the jungle isn't a 1 and done task. People want to reduce a junglers impact on games. And they keep looking at junglers with crazy score lines and say "reduce their XP and gold so they stop doing this" But in reality all it does is force junglers into spamming ganks which means that one jungler gets ahead of the other, and since their source of farm is getting nerfed repeatedly they cannot come back to contest the enemy jungler leading to the inevitable "better jungler wins gg". So fixing the jungle is a huge process. You need to make the jungle role less impactful so that it doesn't outright define the game, but as I see it the reason it's so impactful is because both teams start with 4.5 players and whichever jungler gets ahead negates the other making it a 4v5.

In my opinion, the key to fixing the jungle is to make the jungle less snowbally. You do this by actually buffing the jungle. If you crank the fuck out of the catchup XP and slightly buff its base XP numbers what you get is a role that unless getting super fed, is relatively stable. Your jungler will be equal with their jungler as long as they aren't getting 10 kills. While the question still stands, "what to do about their impact" It's my opinion that the reason the jungle is so impactful is not that the jungle has a giant impact on the 3 lanes. its that it has a massive impact on their opponent. If you get ahead as a jungler, this means your lanes are getting ahead. This means that not only is the enemy jungler set behind, ganking is even harder for him, Meaning that he cant have an impact on the other 3 lanes.

TLDR: Jungle is a very complex role And I believe that the counterintuitive concept of actually buffing jungle XP and catchup XP is the key to balancing it because the main problem is not that the jungler spanks 3 lanes. Its that the jungler makes the enemy jungler irrelevant so that game is just a 4v5.

LightswornLance7 votes

Alot of this makes sense but I don't think we should be buffing catchup EXP. If you get yourself a lead but catchup EXP is insane you just lose it for no reason and theres nothing you can do about it. IMO there needs to be more objectives that are constantly up so that you convert your leads into objectives and not into exp.

Tr4shB4NSYST3M7 votes

The problem is Jungle already scales poorly compared to top/mid/botlane carry, thats why earlygame jgs are meta right now b/c the main time you can impact the game is from 5-~20min B/c solo laners havent passively outscaled you by that point.

Crescent Dusk2 votes

{quoted}

IIRC they are buffing early jungle but nerfing its scaling. This makes the early game impact of a jungler easier but tones down its impact throughout the game if they aren't already doing well (cause snowballing is flavor of the season)

Really it comes down to the question of how long do you want game times. The proposed changes (To my understanding at least. We will have to see how they play out) is to empower jungle early game but reduce their dominance as the game goes on.

The major problem with this as I see it is that all its going to do is make snowballing as a jungler even more potent. The reason for this view is that if you get ahead of the enemy jungler, because catchup XP is reduced, and jungle camp XP scaling is worse. This means that once you get ahead you can begin to chain ganks and get much further ahead, where the enemy jungler is fighting an already uphill battle, but now with a 100lb workout vest slapped on for good measure.

While I disagree with their changes, we will have to see how this pans out. One of the key issues with balancing the jungle is that you need to balance the value of the jungle to incentivize ganking vs s5 Devourer jerk off in the jungle for 30 min and come out of the jungle with the ability to 1v9. they want to reduce its impact on games, but in doing this they keep nerfing the jungle XP and gold. All this does is force junglers to play gank heavy if they want to stay relevant in a match. This means that the changes are having the opposite effect as they are forced into a more game impacting position if they want to even exist.

fixing the jungle isn't a 1 and done task. People want to reduce a junglers impact on games. And they keep looking at junglers with crazy score lines and say "reduce their XP and gold so they stop doing this" But in reality all it does is force junglers into spamming ganks which means that one jungler gets ahead of the other, and since their source of farm is getting nerfed repeatedly they cannot come back to contest the enemy jungler leading to the inevitable "better jungler wins gg". So fixing the jungle is a huge process. You need to make the jungle role less impactful so that it doesn't outright define the game, but as I see it the reason it's so impactful is because both teams start with 4.5 players and whichever jungler gets ahead negates the other making it a 4v5.

In my opinion, the key to fixing the jungle is to make the jungle less snowbally. You do this by actually buffing the jungle. If you crank the fuck out of the catchup XP and slightly buff its base XP numbers what you get is a role that unless getting super fed, is relatively stable. Your jungler will be equal with their jungler as long as they aren't getting 10 kills. While the question still stands, "what to do about their impact" It's my opinion that the reason the jungle is so impactful is not that the jungle has a giant impact on the 3 lanes. its that it has a massive impact on their opponent. If you get ahead as a jungler, this means your lanes are getting ahead. This means that not only is the enemy jungler set behind, ganking is even harder for him, Meaning that he cant have an impact on the other 3 lanes.

TLDR: Jungle is a very complex role And I believe that the counterintuitive concept of actually buffing jungle XP and catchup XP is the key to balancing it because the main problem is not that the jungler spanks 3 lanes. Its that the jungler makes the enemy jungler irrelevant so that game is just a 4v5.

Jungle is already one of the worst scaling lanes in the game. Emphasizing early game for jg is ridiculous, because right now all you want to do is play strong early game duelists in jg because if you don't you get bullied out of your own jg and can't even scale up.

Fact is, if a lane falls behind, they can go impact another lane and help their jg take camps to catch back up.

JG can't do that because of yi funneling strats led to lane xp being gutted for jg, so if you're pushed out of your own jg you can't even farm side lanes to catch back up.

This is compounded to the fact that right now jg xp is already nerfed to the point where you are always 1 or 2 levels behind enemy laners. If the enemy jungler puts you as little of one level behind, you as jg can't do anything at all without consistent, effective collapses by winning laners into your jg to carry you back in.

People complain about jg impact, but the fact is jg is far more impacted by laners because it's 3 lanes your opponent can benefit from to begin invading your own jg with impunity.

If you don't have 2 good laners at any point on your side of the map, you can't contest crabs. You can't contest herald or dragon. You can get invaded on your side of the jungle and more often than not your own laners will just sit under their turret and do nothing because they'd rather you die and fall further behind than lose what little precious gold, xp, and turret plates they have.

Jungling feels more ass than ever because bot lane has been elevated heads and shoulders above the other lanes. The result? The hardest lane to gank successfully with the most points of vision to cover is what your role revolves around.

xDogMeatx1 votes

if your behind as a jungle why not buy a support item since your jungle is screwed anyways. sell that jungle item and get a relic or something at least you wont be in a ditch that way. if they want your jungle and take you outta jungle then let them have it and control what you can do like either supporting mid or top. in other words they can free farm if they want in jungle you just need to ward it and attack them if they try to get your buffs if you can ofc.

Linna Excel3 votes

They are changing the support items, so I don't think that'll work so well.

Pika Fox1 votes

If jungle exp is lowered, you have a better chance of getting back into the game as a jungler if you die to the enemy jungler due to catch up xp boosting for you, where as the enemy jungler is still getting the reduced exp.

The only real question i have is if it will make early ganking more do or die for champ kill exp.

AetherArising2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=avckqEjL,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-10-21T18:52:15.527+0000)

If jungle exp is lowered, you have a better chance of getting back into the game as a jungler if you die to the enemy jungler due to catch up xp boosting for you, where as the enemy jungler is still getting the reduced exp.

The only real question i have is if it will make early ganking more do or die for champ kill exp.

1: "Reducing XP means it'll be easier for the losing player to get back into the game" ah. because that's how it works. If the jungler is down 5 levels from the midlaner, they will never survive a gank.

2: hell yes there'll be more level 2 gank spams which nobody wants on either side.

Pika Fox2 votes

{quoted}

1: "Reducing XP means it'll be easier for the losing player to get back into the game" ah. because that's how it works. If the jungler is down 5 levels from the midlaner, they will never survive a gank.

2: hell yes there'll be more level 2 gank spams which nobody wants on either side.

You wont be 5 levels down. If youre that far behind, youll level up every camp.

AetherArising3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=avckqEjL,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-10-22T00:16:59.152+0000)

You wont be 5 levels down. If youre that far behind, youll level up every camp.

1: Catchup XP got royally screwed with (i think in preseason 8? Maybe 7 but i think start of 8 sounds right.)

2: I can't find a single game in my recent match history where either the enemy jungle or I got behind, and then managed to catch back up through jungle camps. Either the losing jungler stayed way behind until they started split pushing a lane, gaining a fuckton of solo lane XP, or in the case of the vast majority they stayed 2-4 levels behind easy

3: The only exception to this pattern was the recent Vi vs Nocturne game, where both the enemy jungle and i were exactly matching eachother except he had more jungle minions and i had more lane pushing (so even though i had a worse CS/m i was a level up as the losing team.)

4: As a rule of thumb, gutting jg XP more will just farm-reliant scalers and make xin/lee/elise/j4 the meta A G A I N. Does anyone like the level 2 gank spam meta? Either your laner plays like a chimp and overextends when they shouldn't, getting killed, or you miss the gank and the enemy gets the other side of the map. It's stressful and annoying for both lanes and jg.

I managed to go from the pits of bottom-bronze to comfortably top-of-gold (and frankly might be higher if i didn't constantly push my luck and keep going tilted after the first loss of the night) because i studied my shit. Not because i'm a micro god, fuck no, my hands lose circulation half the time and my wrists sublux like a motherfucker.

I know my role, at least to an adequate enough degree to compensate for lack of physical skill. But from what i saw, when my interest got piqued by how nonchalantly you brushed off OP, a diamond player with both lane and jg experience, you only play ARAM and bots since season 6. That means you're either a casuals-only who doesn't grasp what the changes mean, or you're too afraid to voice your uneducated opinions on your main account. Neither one is a good look

Thanks for tolerating the text-wall, if you read it.

-AA

Pika Fox1 votes

{quoted}

1: Catchup XP got royally screwed with (i think in preseason 8? Maybe 7 but i think start of 8 sounds right.)

2: I can't find a single game in my recent match history where either the enemy jungle or I got behind, and then managed to catch back up through jungle camps. Either the losing jungler stayed way behind until they started split pushing a lane, gaining a fuckton of solo lane XP, or in the case of the vast majority they stayed 2-4 levels behind easy

3: The only exception to this pattern was the recent Vi vs Nocturne game, where both the enemy jungle and i were exactly matching eachother except he had more jungle minions and i had more lane pushing (so even though i had a worse CS/m i was a level up as the losing team.)

4: As a rule of thumb, gutting jg XP more will just farm-reliant scalers and make xin/lee/elise/j4 the meta A G A I N. Does anyone like the level 2 gank spam meta? Either your laner plays like a chimp and overextends when they shouldn't, getting killed, or you miss the gank and the enemy gets the other side of the map. It's stressful and annoying for both lanes and jg.

I managed to go from the pits of bottom-bronze to comfortably top-of-gold (and frankly might be higher if i didn't constantly push my luck and keep going tilted after the first loss of the night) because i studied my shit. Not because i'm a micro god, fuck no, my hands lose circulation half the time and my wrists sublux like a motherfucker.

I know my role, at least to an adequate enough degree to compensate for lack of physical skill. But from what i saw, when my interest got piqued by how nonchalantly you brushed off OP, a diamond player with both lane and jg experience, you only play ARAM and bots since season 6. That means you're either a casuals-only who doesn't grasp what the changes mean, or you're too afraid to voice your uneducated opinions on your main account. Neither one is a good look

Thanks for tolerating the text-wall, if you read it.

-AA

Given half of your rant is literally reiterating one of my two points, im pretty sure my opinion isnt uneducated if we are to assume yours somehow is.

Fact of the matter is that due to catchup xp the reduced exp would allow you to get back into the game after a death easier, as the opponent wouldnt get that much farther ahead off the kill and killing more camps. At least exp wise.

AetherArising2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=avckqEjL,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-22T06:10:02.879+0000)

Given half of your rant is literally reiterating one of my two points, im pretty sure my opinion isnt uneducated if we are to assume yours somehow is.

Fact of the matter is that due to catchup xp the reduced exp would allow you to get back into the game after a death easier, as the opponent wouldnt get that much farther ahead off the kill and killing more camps. At least exp wise.

No? quite the opposite. The losing jungler doesn't close the gap currently. Not sure if i was unclear or if you had a moment of illiteracy there.

If all jungle XP is lowered by a flat rate, that doesn't make the catchup suddenly op, it just makes BOTH players equally worse. Now, instead of being levels 15 and 17, they'll be more along the lines of 12 and 14. The losing player is going to stay even weaker, and the winning player is just going to be deader weight with less agency post-15. That's what decreasing means. They didn't say "We're reducing the XP of the leading jungle", they said "We're decreasing jungle XP", as a whole.

...I reiterate, you seem to pretty much be a lane-only player when you aren't busy playing bots and ARAM. Not sure where the backing behind your opinions, of a role you don't play, is. Nevertheless, i can tell already that wasting my time and arguing with someone who's set in their ideas isn't going to go anywhere, so unless you can provide more than speculation without basis, i'll leave it at that.

Pika Fox1 votes

{quoted}

No? quite the opposite. The losing jungler doesn't close the gap currently. Not sure if i was unclear or if you had a moment of illiteracy there.

If all jungle XP is lowered by a flat rate, that doesn't make the catchup suddenly op, it just makes BOTH players equally worse. Now, instead of being levels 15 and 17, they'll be more along the lines of 12 and 14. The losing player is going to stay even weaker, and the winning player is just going to be deader weight with less agency post-15. That's what decreasing means. They didn't say "We're reducing the XP of the leading jungle", they said "We're decreasing jungle XP", as a whole.

...I reiterate, you seem to pretty much be a lane-only player when you aren't busy playing bots and ARAM. Not sure where the backing behind your opinions, of a role you don't play, is. Nevertheless, i can tell already that wasting my time and arguing with someone who's set in their ideas isn't going to go anywhere, so unless you can provide more than speculation without basis, i'll leave it at that.

Thats not true, it would be instead of 15 and 17, it would be 12 and 13. Again, the person with the kill wouldnt get as much out of it because the camps they could take would net less xp overall, so its just the kill xp lead.

For simple numbers; assume 100xp to level. Right now, camps give 30 xp, kill 40xp. You get a kill and 2 camps. 30,30,40, 100 total. You level.

Post patch camp xp is reduced to 15.

Kill, 2 camps. 15, 15, 40, 70 total, you did not level.

All else being equal, you did not get the level advantage you did previously, and while youll hit the level sooner, it gives time before then to catch up, as partial levels do not give stats or an ability point.

(Numbers are placeholder just to show a point)

Also, since gold and xp is redistributed, a loss of krugs wont screw over the jungler nearly as much as it does currently.

GilxeN1 votes

That's what I said in previous posts about jungle changes, next season Jungle roster will be even smaller to successfuly win a match.

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