People saying 50% winrate Solo and DQ would mean that it's fine

SergeantScuttler·Aug 19, 2016·89 votes·3,950 views

are missing the point! Even if queueing with more people has ZERO advantage, it represents a different skillset and game state. A ladder is supposed to provide a CONSISTENT and COMPARABLE game state for all participants. Otherwise, it fails to fulfill the basic premise of a ranked system: to be able to compare players.

I gave more details here.

This post is inspired by the discussion on Reddit here, where some were suggesting that 50% winrate for DQ compared to Solo would mean that the whining makes no sense. I don't have a Reddit account so I'm posting here.

65 Comments

QuephaAug 19, 201626 votes

It is a different skillset. It's a skillset that involves more teamwork and communication. Teamwork and communication... In a 5v5... Objective-oriented... Teamfight-focused... Strategy game.

God forbid.

PrometheSAug 19, 20169 votes

{quoted}

It is a different skillset. It's a skillset that involves more teamwork and communication. Teamwork and communication... In a 5v5... Objective-oriented... Teamfight-focused... Strategy game.

God forbid.

You always needed those regardless if solo or premade. It's just harder to identify a player's skill when he's premade. And either way, it muddles the rankings to clump everything together as if it's all the same format.

ABSINTHEgedAug 19, 201624 votes

And you don't think a solo player's ability to coordinate with a team of strangers is overshadowed when that group of strangers is a group of four who are all using Skype or TS and not using chat or pings?

It removes a large portion of the solo player's influence on the game and their change to tip the scales for a win in their favor because of something they did. That removes consistency. That decreases the perceived value of the ranking system.

rtbf225618241Aug 20, 20165 votes

Except that people who don't use pings or chat are more likely to screw over the Solo players and through them, themselves and increase their chances of losing again.

ABSINTHEgedAug 20, 20163 votes

Yes. Which still means the solo player got to impact the game less than they should have. It doesn't help the solo player that the group of four also lost.

Velzard of KozAug 20, 20169 votes

That's the point really. Having this kind of coordination as group of strangers requires possibly more skill than having this trained on several games before with the same people who you might know and predict behaviour of while having better way of communicating with them and thus shouldn't be on the same ranked ladder, because that makes it rather irrelevant.

I've seen premade groups streaming that were directly talking to each other and had bad coordination and I had solo games where we could watch each other, know each other's kit and wouldn't need advanced pings to know what Leona can do and what we should do once she does it, what abilities interact well with others. Just day before yesterday, for example, I had game as Kata with Annie on my team. We didn't need to communicate so I know that she will have soon her Flash, we didn't need to communicate that she has her ult prepared and I didn't need to tell her I am waiting for her to flahultrape them so I can ult them, too. You don't need premades to maintain teamwork in the game. You may improve it in certain aspect but let' not act like this should be reason to remove SoloQ or have it on same ladder. That's directly saying "F*ck you, you're not playing the way it's supposed to be played" to those that are decreasing your queue times.

PrometheSAug 19, 20169 votes

I think they're making it more complex than it needs to be. The hate for DQ mostly stems from very competitive players ~Platinum ELO and higher. They could just introduce a true solo ladder only for Plat+. Filling the queue wouldn't be that much of an issue either since there are more solo players in higher ELO and also higher ranked players tend to play more often.

This would only make the ranked system apples:apples for Plat+ but below Plat, I think the frustration from DQ and its effect on ranked integrity is less of an issue. Thus, it's more or less ok if the ladder is apples:oranges:rasberries:strawberries. :D

ReconnectedAug 19, 20166 votes

{quoted}

I think they're making it more complex than it needs to. The hate for DQ mostly stems from very competitive players ~Platinum ELO and higher. They could just introduce a true solo ladder only for Plat+. Filling the queue wouldn't be that much of an issue either since there are more solo players in higher ELO and also higher ranked players tend to play more often.

This would only make the ranked system apples:apples for Plat+ but below Plat, I think the frustration from DQ and its effect on ranked integrity is less of an issue. Thus, it's more or less ok if the ladder is apples:oranges:rasberries:strawberries. :D

That would make low plat a clusterfuck off boosted players who are finally forced to play solo.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

PrometheSAug 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That would make low plat a clusterfuck off boosted players who are finally forced to play solo.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

They wouldn't be forced to. They'd just have the choice to use the solo ladder.

LankPantsAug 20, 20162 votes

They can't play DQ anymore because they're rank locked out of it. He's completely right.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 20, 20161 votes

Already happening in high plat so i just called that equality.

BlåbæretAug 19, 201615 votes

{quoted}

I think they're making it more complex than it needs to. The hate for DQ mostly stems from very competitive players ~Platinum ELO and higher. They could just introduce a true solo ladder only for Plat+. Filling the queue wouldn't be that much of an issue either since there are more solo players in higher ELO and also higher ranked players tend to play more often.

This would only make the ranked system apples:apples for Plat+ but below Plat, I think the frustration from DQ and its effect on ranked integrity is less of an issue. Thus, it's more or less ok if the ladder is apples:oranges:rasberries:strawberries. :D

So you want to screw and exclude lower ranked players? Nah m8. I haven't played much ranked, but most of my games have been lost due to premades. It's not just facing premade, it's also getting premades on your team thinking they run the game and decides to troll pick when they don't get their desired roll. It's the main reason I rarely play ranked actually. Funny thing is that 90% of the toxic players I've encountered in this game, have been premades.

DQ sucks so hard.

ArthimetesAug 20, 20163 votes

Yeah and those toxic premades NEVER get punished somehow.

MonkeyMadnessAug 19, 20162 votes

I would argue that gold players tend to dislike it too, as gold is the logical spot for low elo players to boost.

KeevalroyAug 20, 20163 votes

And why wouldn't they choose gold? I got to gold the last two seasons making half assed attempts to climb before going back to team builder since I already secured my Victorious reward. I'd like to see stats on how many people with the DQ badge stopped immediately after they hit gold. That'd be interesting I think.

CrazFight Aug 19, 20162 votes

Gold 3 here :C I hate it to.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 20, 20161 votes

Yes pls. If i'd know how to upload pictures here i'd show you my last two games getting mixed with gold 5 and 2 against a full mid-high plat team. I was the solo in a 4men premade. Horrible game. Just horrible. Few games before that gold 4 toplaner and plat 5 jungler vs plat1 and 1. That's basically the skill difference (not mechanically) but game knowledge wise putting a bronze 4 into a gold 2 game. They play an entirely different game. I just felt lost and didn't know what to do and had to watch how a game which would've been won with decent teammates slowly turned into a stomp against us. I'm so sick of it. The difference between plat 5s/4s and 2s/1s is already high and still it happens often i get placed with and against them and it is actually just a lottery if we are the ones stomping the low ones or the other way round which leads to rank up and derank all the time every few days. DynCancer is the worst thing riot ever did and yes i can blame dynQ on this. The few games you play with teammates who actually belong in your elo feel good even if you lose. You'Ve been all on the same page and lost or won as a team. But these mixes of premades, solos, low elo, higher elo just feel irritating and not fun at all. I don't know why it is even possible to get placed with a frickin Gold 5 when you are plat 2 in a RANKED. And i even get double punished: first i'm the poor solo in a 4 stack and second: i even get higher placed enemies to "compensate". So you get trash tier teammates and even better enemies because they are premade. Thanks for nothing riot. If i had some other decent game i'd be long gone. Waiting for Deus Ex currently.

MonkeyMadnessAug 19, 20165 votes

http://imgur.com/a/qUVBp LOL titanium tier...boosted titanium animals and copper scrubs. Good idea rito, let's not address the actual issues, instead let's just give new toxic labels for players to add a bit more summoner 13 .

Dextix LTAug 20, 20161 votes

Where did you get that from?

MonkeyMadnessAug 20, 20161 votes

follow links from OP

PoskeAug 20, 20165 votes

Its a known thing that Dynamic Q fails at everything

The fact that premades have 50% winrate is ridicilus

There are multiple reasons why

How many premades use smurfs to abuse the dynamic boosting well those who do certainly have more then 50% winrate which begs the question Do real fair premades then have less then 50% well yes its the basic math

**Dynamic Q Fails As a Premade Ranked system. Fails as a Solo player system It supports Dynamic boosting and the players who abuse smurfs to boost their elo **

Obungo Aug 20, 20165 votes

Welcome to a team oriented game?

Solo Q isn't coming back, and league was never a healthy solo queue to begin with. There were trolls/toxic kids/afk's/derankers in nearly every game last season, and people were bitching on the forums just like people are bitching right now.

People are just trying to find more things to blame for their failure to rank up, except this time the lonely solo players who always sucked to begin with actually have something to blame.

Dextix LTAug 20, 20169 votes

Soloq is the only healthy q for this game. Team game does not mean - premades only.

Soloq shows a persons skill and his true rank, dq adds more variables to the mix which makes the ranking system unreliable.

SevixysAug 20, 20163 votes

In SoloQ, you have a 20% chance to win it by 'skill'. That is - even not counting the influence of the enemy team. Basicly, you are carried 80% of the time. (mathematically spoken)

Dynamic queue gives tools like proper communication, summoner synergy and better macro - while also being great fun opposed to soloQ grind.

Where I agree with you is that summoners over 3 divisions of each other shouldn't duo in ANY elo.

Duoing with players on your same skill level only develops your teamwork skills and thus gives opportunities to apply your mechanical skill for greater good. (well I tend to play 5v5 mostly, THAT'S competitive when compared to soloQ)

Dextix LTAug 20, 20164 votes

You are the only constant variable in the team. Your team can have 4 bad players, while the enemy has the chance of 5.

This means that in the long run the system balances itself out and that the only factor mostly influencing your ranking, is your skill, as you are the only constant variable.

Dynamicq gives the tools only to one side, what about the others who want soloq, who want to be rated because of their own skill?

Because with premades you have no clue if it was your premade or you that deserves the required skill, the system also doesnt know that.

You need teamwork in soloq too. You just like every other player has to work with 4 others to achieve your goal. The system is purified as much as it can with reduced variables. DQ increases variables and muddles up the system, thus becoming an unreliable indication of a rank.

DQ is not healthy. The only healthy modes this game can have is solo/duo and 5 team ques. Anything beyond that is unhealthy and unnecessary.

SevixysAug 22, 20161 votes

Well, I don't even play more than 2 premades.. Ok! :P

Thanks for the insight. However, 1/2/5 would be the way - with the same mmr. Back in s5 when separate 5's was a thing, no one bothered to play 5's because of the separate elo. No working man can climb 2 ladders at the same time.

Dextix LTAug 22, 20161 votes

No it would not be the way. You cant math solo players with groups that are more than 2 people. This breaks the system.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 21, 20161 votes

I'Ve witnessed this "proper" communication. Premades refusing to use wards because they think their TS communication is enough. No use of the ping system, no chat use nothing. Only their small little premade bubble. As premades you have fun sure but the fun is long gone for dedicated solo players. How many q with players on their same skill level? Look at my last game, 4 men premade: gold 5, gold 1, plat 2*2. "same skill" my ass. Nearly two tiers apart and i have to suffer as a solo player. This Q is cancer and garbage. Riots biggest mistake and it will be the downfall of league if they keep it in its current state. If riot just wouldn't be so fuckin stubborn but they became the typical "we know better what you want" company and those tend to lose everything in the end. If they will keep DynQ the only way is to etablish a second q for solo only. I'd take longer q times everyday but we all know soloQ would have the same or even shorter Q times.

SevixysAug 22, 20161 votes

Only their small little premade bubble.

That arrogance you mentioned is.. daunting. I checked your op.gg and I was going to bet you being a bronze/silver for that statement. i have never encountered such behavior even though I'm in low elo (gold)

I tend to forget that this complain is focused on 3/4 premades - my apologies.

We must preserve duo queue or else there will only remain those silent 'grinders' who don't go outside once in a month. Also, in my opinion, ranked 5's showcases greater skill than solo queue in general, thus justifying its existence in the ranked ladder.

Bears eat peopleAug 20, 20165 votes

Main problem of DQ is not about how fail to play againts/with premades.

Main problem of DQ is about how the whole player base are mixed and how DQ fucked up mmr. People just getting dynamicly boosted and ruining games, and it's happening over, over and over.

ModAcademy KaynAug 19, 20164 votes

If you want to be compared against other players, then make your way to Diamond. Until then though, Ranked has NEVER been an accurate or reliant way to judge or compare skill. Even before this season, I've seen high gold and plats do god damn horrible. People need to understand that Ranked has never been a way to show skill until higher ranks. It's just about how lucky you are to get good teammates, or how bad the other team is.

Dextix LTAug 19, 20164 votes

Wrong.

ModAcademy KaynAug 20, 20164 votes

Man, what a well thought out and completely legitimate argument. With that type of reasoning, I have to be wrong.

Dextix LTAug 20, 20164 votes

You are basically saying that only luck influences someones division, which is false and has been proven false many times by many players especially smurfs.

Your division always depends on your skill. If you are good enough, you will rise, because on average you will win more.

PrometheSAug 19, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=avVsB5Br,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-08-19T20:49:59.171+0000)

If you want to be compared against other players, then make your way to Diamond. Until then though, Ranked has NEVER been an accurate or reliant way to judge or compare skill. Even before this season, I've seen high gold and plats do god damn horrible. People need to understand that Ranked has never been a way to show skill until higher ranks. It's just about how lucky you are to get good teammates, or how bad the other team is.

That's just not true. There's a palpable difference between gold and silver etc. (I'm referring most to G5 vs S5 not something like G5 vs S1) It's borne out in the statistics too. Keep in mind that ranked is about a large sample of games not just how someone does in their last few. And of course, it's not like just because someone's Gold 5 instead of Silver 5, they won't make massive mistakes. The difference is that it will happen less often.

ModAcademy KaynAug 20, 20162 votes

Don't get me wrong, I understand people in Gold are better than Silver, that's the point of Rank's. What I'm trying to say though, is that Ranked has never been for testing skill or proving you're better than someone else until you get to high elo.

Look at what the OP, he says that the point of a ranked system is to compare players. That is correct in high elo, but incorrect in low elo. I just got demoted to S2 from S1, because i got three afk's in a row. Is it my fault that I'm to be compared to S2 players (their relative skill level aside), because i got unlucky?

Low Elo isn't about getting compared with other players. It's about getting lucky for your opponents to get the bad players, and it only starts to get about comparing players once you get to the higher Elos like Diamond or Plat.

PrometheSAug 20, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=avVsB5Br,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2016-08-20T03:42:19.503+0000)

Don't get me wrong, I understand people in Gold are better than Silver, that's the point of Rank's. What I'm trying to say though, is that Ranked has never been for testing skill or proving you're better than someone else until you get to high elo.

Look at what the OP, he says that the point of a ranked system is to compare players. That is correct in high elo, but incorrect in low elo. I just got demoted to S2 from S1, because i got three afk's in a row. Is it my fault that I'm to be compared to S2 players (their relative skill level aside), because i got unlucky?

Low Elo isn't about getting compared with other players. It's about getting lucky for your opponents to get the bad players, and it only starts to get about comparing players once you get to the higher Elos like Diamond or Plat.

Keep in mind that everyone gets afks/trolls/boosted players etc. sometimes. As a result, it makes little difference for climbing long-term. Even if in lower ELO there are more "randomizing" factors like LB support, it tends to even out and matters less and less the more games you play.

Ranked systems are still meant to compare players at every ELO and this has to be true for matchmaking to work (granted, matchmaking has suffered this season as they've tried to reduce queue times). I think what you really mean is that low ELO players might often play too few games to have a reliable ranking and that can be true but it's not just a low ELO problem. It's probably true that there are more random things which can influence outcome though and DQ itself creates more randomizing factors at every ELO.

There are fewer trolls, dcs etc. in Plat+ than in Silver and that's because it's harder to climb with a bad connection or by being a clown and instalocking Irelia support. There might also be fewer people smurfing in Plat+ because it takes more time to get their smurf to Plat than Gold or Silver. So I do see where you're coming from, it's just that it's more about needing a bigger sample size than the idea that ranked isn't supposed to compare players. I've seen people with over 1000 ranked games last season and only a Silver ranking. In that case, it's probably pretty accurate but for someone with 100 games, it might not be. Still though, a guy who's Silver after 100 games isn't going to be at Plat skill level so there are limits. After all, the better you are, the faster you'd climb so a Diamond player might reach Plat on his smurf after 75 games while an actual Plat player might need 200.

Dad RockAug 20, 20163 votes

I've been trying to tell low elo players this ever since DQ was released. Pretty soon diamond is gonna be solo/duo and master/challenger is gonna be only solo so we're gonna have a competitive ladder meanwhile low elo players get fucked playing their normal games. DQ right now has the same level of competitiveness as normal games and that's what you people want for next season as well so guess what, you're gonna get it. I wonder if low elo players just don't know that they're basically playing normal games with a number attached next to it or if they just don't care. If Riot were to show us the hidden elo for normal games, it would be the exact same queue as DQ.

I wear GivenchyAug 20, 20163 votes

This game is shit. You should play Overwatch, it's so much better.. Unless you play on a toaster.

Hello I am BirdAug 20, 20163 votes

But... I don't like the first person perspective :/

LeetriAug 20, 20163 votes

Except in Overwatch it's also Dynamic Queue with toxic premades and terrible players.

BloodyTomponAug 21, 20161 votes

To avoid DynamicQ I ought to play a different game with Dynamic Q?

Locke DaemonfireAug 19, 20162 votes

I dunno, I don't feel like there's a vast amount of difference whether or not there are premades in my games. I never look until afterwards if at all though. I guess I'm also more of a follower, so that might be helping my experience. I understand calling the shots can be tougher if there is a pre-made on your side that has their own shot-caller, but it is always a crap shoot whether or not your teammates respond to your calls anyway.

On the topic of comparing players, I disagree that it is the basic premise of a ranked system, but I understand that it's important to many people. The ranked badges were supposed to help with that, but they aren't very visible. The proposed separate ladder system should make it easy to differentiate between SQ and DQ players though, making comparison simple.

Great MutaAug 20, 20162 votes

Solo and DQ are really different skillsets. I'm 62% winrate on DQ and 26% on solo this season.

Here's what both needs:

Solo:

Need a high tolerance for bullshit with trolls, feeders, flamers, people who want to spam the surrender vote and leavers.
You have to realize that you are at a disadvantage from the start. The premades make a huge difference at all ELO's.
Need to realize that it is effectively 1v9. Your teammates are going to be working against you most of the time and will complain about 2-3 cs.

DQ:

Most important thing - you are picking for the team, not for your pleasure. I have a 70% winrate with Sejuani with premades. Do you think I want to play Sejuani so much? No! But it's the best pick for the team. Winning > getting my ass kicked because I wanted to run Shyvanna Jungle. I've single handedly watched my club win every game and then start to lose every game when we started taking fun picks over team picks. That's when I got out.
Mic communication - Having a mic is one thing, using it another. Sure people will join the group call, but they don't say shit and might as well not even have it.
I also do think you need a team that can come on at the same time and are at similar points in life. I play with a guy from Barbados. He's a student, I work. He comes on during the day, I come on early in the morning or at night. His internet sucks and his mom often interrupts his games. We hook up to play maybe 1-2 days a week. I'd be much better off finding someone who is near me and works similar schedules. People with kids and wives will also be much busier than singles.
You need a full 5 man premade. The power of the troll is stronger than ever due to the game being more teambased. 5 on 4 in premade battles will usually have the 5 man coming out on top.
You have to find people who cover all positions. My crew had a top, a mid, a support and a jungle. The top wanted to become adc. Mid wanted to Jg. I wanted to stay at JG. Mid and Top are the most popular positions. Everyone played worse at other lanes.

JRobin31Aug 21, 20161 votes

Wanting Solo Queue is analogous to wanting to play competitive soccer as an individual matched with random teammates each game because it takes a "different skill set" to play soccer with complete strangers.

Mojihito666Aug 21, 20161 votes

No.

JRobin31Aug 23, 20161 votes

are you upset about futbol players who are boosted by their teammates? does team play create an unfair advantage over solo futbol players who compete against players who are premade teams? is the competitive integrity of futbol compromised? should we be demanding solo queue futbol from FIFA? should we quit futbol and go play American Football until FIFA reforms it's ways?

Mojihito666Aug 23, 20161 votes

In football you can be only in one team at the time , and no smurfing is allowed.

Now crawl back to your basement.

SergeantScuttlerAug 25, 20161 votes

Nah, that's a pretty misguided analogy. In SQ, you'd be matched with players of comparable skill on each team by an algorithm. It isn't random. Everyone would be in the same situation and over time, the independent variable (your performance) can be isolated. This is explained in more detail if you follow the link.

You are right though that they would be different skills and that's why it makes no sense to slap them together on the same ladder.

JRobin31Aug 26, 20161 votes

By "random" I mean "according to an algorithm". Players from solo queue often refer to the process and understand the process as "random". Hence, the analogy holds.

The analogy in your link is misguided as it compares solo queue to singles tennis. A more accurate analogy would be to have players get matched "according to an algorithm" in doubles tennis to compete for the title of best doubles tennis player. The notion is ridiculous and not implemented in competitive tennis. The closest actual tennis experience is cutthroat tennis which also isn't played competitively.

Go back, reread your links, and reexamine the analogies. Now that I have explained the flaw for you, it should be clear that solo queue isn't carrying over as a viable alternative in any of these other competitive team sports.