@AskRiot: Runes give meaningful choice but need tweaks/rebalancing

SergeantScuttler··70 votes·9,165 views

Because rune benefits are passive stats, which can be easily solved by the community, it’s hard for them to ever be interesting decisions. In their current form, runes will probably always be something you just look up on the internet and copy from a guide, and that’s not awesome.

This argument could apply to anything which has the capacity to be studied and thus seems silly. Keystones don't offer more customization than before. You actually have fewer choices but they make a larger game impact. In most cases, there is one Keystone which works best for a certain champion. You're not about to see DFT, Fervor or SoA on LB.

Runes are one of the remaining areas where you actually have meaningful choices. While many runes aren't really viable (something Riot can improve without abandoning the system), there is still plenty to change based on matchup, playstyle, and powerspikes. Even if you were to study the game like a professional, differences in composition and matchups still make it unrealistic for a one-size-fits-all page to be best. I'll take Ziggs for example since he's one of my favorite champions:

Vs difficult matchups with high burst like LB: I might want to take flat MR Glyphs and even Quints if I'm really scared and they have an AP JG too like Nidalee.

Vs poke AP champions like Xerath & Fiddlesticks or Amumu JG: I'll probably want scaling MR since their kill pressure is mostly level 6+.

Vs poke & burst champions like Lux or Vel'Koz: Ideally, I'd want MS Q and scaling MR or scaling CDR. With a few levels and items, one bind or Vel'Koz E can often mean death. High MS is critical.

Vs AD champions like Zed: I'll take scaling CDR most times so that I can use my escape more and outscale. If they're weak early like Talon, I might go for AP or Scaling AP Glyphs.

When we both lack kill pressure: If I'm facing something like Taliyah or Morgana, I've found little success going for kills so I sometimes take 30% scaling CDR playing for a more late game oriented build.

These are only modest examples of customization and there's way more you can do. A Nocturne going Fervor may want ArPen marks while he'd take AD marks when going Thunderlords. There's a lot of interplay between runes and masteries.

The rune system isn't broken and offers more viable options than anything else in the game if you care to explore them. **The main issue is that some runes are simply not up to par in strength. **

I sometimes feel that Riot has too many people working to reinvent the wheel. In fact, a lot of players like the core gameplay as it is and the changes often offer more frustration than benefit. I understand the need for rebalancing but sometimes it goes too far. What if we changed the rules of tennis every year? A lot of people who actually like tennis may not like the new format and it would also create enormous difficulties for tournaments, players, trainers, and the audience as a whole. I actually bought some tennis training DVDs a few years ago and if that was League instead, the game would be so different that they'd be useless for me now. Unlike other sports, because League changes so fast, it's also less interesting to look at famous old matches. That gameplay has little to do with how it is now.

The example that pains me the most is the random Kog rework when he wasn't oppressive in either solo or competitive play. I instantly had my favorite mid laner and playstyle for 6 straight seasons deleted. 1/3 of Kog players used him as an AP poke mid and nothing else has ever quite fit his old niche. Instead of a versatile champion which supported a wide variety of builds and playstyles, I got a mindless W bot. He's not even a midlane hypercarry anymore. I fear the same thing for runes. Instead of dozens of customizations, I bet it will become a simplified system with fewer options. Will I even still be able to sacrifice laning strength and take 30% scaling CDR?

95 Comments

Great Muta35 votes

Runes aren't bad, just they are too expensive IP wise, the pages have to be bought to make it worthwhile and new players are at a huge disadvantage. They also really work against you when the system selects your secondary role more than your primary role.

SergeantScuttler4 votes

Didn't they change it so you get Primary more?

Very Hard Engage7 votes

if sup is you secondary, you still get it more than 50% of the time.

all other combinations, at worst, you get your off role 50% of the time.

Leonerdo6 votes

I agree that Runes still provide quite a bit of customization power. But the current system is still in need of a lot work because it is so damn clunky. For instance, why do we have to deal with 9 runes of each type instead of like 2? Why do we need to buy a new rune page for even the slightest of changes? Why are armor seals still so OP? And I'd ask why we can't edit runes in champ select, but I know that one: BECAUSE RUNES ARE SO DAMN CLUNKY it's not feasible to edit them in 5-10 sec like masteries.

Votable Jester3 votes

I personally prefer the 9 runes of each type method, as I fairly often want to have 6 of one type (scaling cdr) and 3 of another type (mr).

Also, the reason runes can't be changed during champion select is so people buy rp for rune pages.

Leonerdo1 votes
  1. Fair point. What if you could add 1-3 runes of each type and they split the power? So if you only put 1 rune, it gets 9x power. If you do two CDR and one MR, then you get what you said, 6x power for one and 3x power for the other.

  2. Yeah I guess there's no point in having 9 rune pages if you can just edit 1 really fast every game. But I think everyone, including Riot, would be okay with trading the IP/RP cost of rune pages for a better, easier-to-use rune system. Especially because paying for rune pages is basically paying for power in-game, if it means you have a better loadout available more often.

Votable Jester3 votes

I think they should just reduce the cost of runes or make them free like masteries.

I would like to be able to edit runes in champion select, but I doubt they'll add that for a while to come regardless.

Sire Hippington6 votes

My main issue is that you can't change runes like masteries in lobby. 20 pages are by far nor enough for someone like me that plays many different champs on many different roles.

I would love to save sets of quints, reds etc and than built a runepage out of those sets in lobby(4choices to make, thats far less than the masterie tree, though with more options per choice)

BlâckLotus4 votes

riot i know you want to make runes intresting but please dont do what you did with the masteries,i do enjoy having an impactfull to the game mastery but i also want to have CHOICES.

48983507DEL13 votes

Lets be real. Energy runes need to be changed.

hhaavviikk1 votes

well the thing is, with shen energy runes are impossible to balance considering shen has 400 energy as opposed to the normal 200, so if you make them flat they're uselees on him but if you make them % they're useless on the other energy champions, riot really screwed up here.

Dealth1 votes

Energy runes will probably be removed

PUS5Y DE5TROYER3 votes

"Because rune benefits are passive stats, which can be easily solved by the community, it’s hard for them to ever be interesting decisions. In their current form, runes will probably always be something you just look up on the internet and copy from a guide, and that’s not awesome."

i swear that is the cuckest thing ive ever read here. looking up guides or having the foresight to tailor runes to matchups is what separates the awesome from the not awesome, and you want to change it to cater to the not awesome? that is not awesome.

RiotGhostcrawler38 votes

{quoted}

"Because rune benefits are passive stats, which can be easily solved by the community, it’s hard for them to ever be interesting decisions. In their current form, runes will probably always be something you just look up on the internet and copy from a guide, and that’s not awesome."

looking up guides or having the foresight to tailor runes to matchups is what separates the awesome from the not awesome, and you want to change it to cater to the not awesome? that is not awesome.

Having the foresight to change your runes is cool and what we're going for philosophically. We disagree that Googling "Riven runes" is much of a test of player skill or game knowledge though.

SlashStriker2 votes

{quoted}

Having the foresight to change your runes is cool and what we're going for philosophically. We disagree that Googling "Riven runes" is much of a test of player skill or game knowledge though.

it be nice if you guys make runes similar to keystones for isntance quints like keystones

Vistha Kai27 votes

Keystones should be removed completely and everybody who'd dare to bring them back in any form, should get thrown out the airlock.

SlashStriker6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IEIus1J0,comment-id=000c000000010000,timestamp=2016-09-02T21:20:11.671+0000)

Keystones should be removed completely and everybody who'd dare to bring them back in any form, should get thrown out the airlock.

so basically we should buff keystones?

Vistha Kai6 votes

If by "buff" you mean "deleted", then yes.

Teslium2 votes

Too salty about tanks taking fervor, my friend.

Junkο14 votes

What exactly do keystones bring to the game?

Champions like Zed, Riven, other TLD lane bullies, etc have completely unfair kill pressure in the laning phase when they were otherwise just fine before they got introduced. Fervor and Grasp allow tanks to go full tank and still deal a fuck ton of damage. Warlord used to be so strong it had to have 3/4 of what it gave removed from it.

And those are basically the only keystones everyone takes. SotA is meh since it just gives some stats and Windspeakers is only taken because there is nothing else some supports can take. All other keystones are pretty much useless.

Valeckserai5 votes

dft useless? lol, no.

Junkο2 votes

It is. Until very late into the game, it gives a bonus like 50 damage to your spells that doesn't even stack. Early game damage is also nonexistent so early you are playing without a keystone.

Valeckserai1 votes

Except that it has no cooldown. Thunderlords can only be used every 25-15 seconds depending on how late into the game it is. Yes, DFT early damage is really bad, but it scales insanely well and with multiple applications it will easily out damage thunderlords, even in early game. It's garbage on bursty champions, but lots of sustained damage casters do very well with it.

Junkο1 votes

It has no cooldown... but you will have to let it proc fully for 4 seconds like 10+ times before it outdamages TLD outside of late game.

And then there is the fact that it deals less damage on AoE spells and even less on DoT spells, which is what most sustained damage dealers have.

Revali2 votes

Singed Brand Malzahar Jhin Cassiopeia Ziggs Karthus

can all effectively run dft. to name a few

Champion Skin3 votes

Singed doesn't use DFT particularly well because it has a really crappy base damage and Singed usually don't build that much AP

Though yes Singed doesn't have all that great options so yeah..

Junkο2 votes

Singed, Brand. Malz and Cass take it because there is no better keystone for them (arguably).

Jhin is a special case since no other Keystone is good for him (arguably) and he has insane amounts of bonus AD to take advantage of the scaling.

TLD is better and taken more on both Ziggs and Karthus. It's kinda like how DFT is good on Veigar late game but it's gimmicky and it's not worth having no keystone early game.

Valeckserai1 votes

Karthus taking thunderlords?

http://champion.gg/champion/Karthus/Middle

DFT is way better on him, its taken the most and has the highest win percentage on him.

Wheatloaf12 votes

The idea of keystones, things you deliberately choose pre-game to affect how you actually play in-game (as opposed to just being generally stronger a la old masteries and runes), has potential. Don't judge an idea based on its poor execution.

Hinagiku334 votes

While I liked the idea at first (the old masteries were always underwhelming and bland) the issue with that kind of design is that anything powerful enough to actually affect the way you play will ALWAYS be broken on at least one champ.

Your only options are to cripple champion kits because of keystone synergy other champs don't have, create keystones so broken that all champs can benefit roughly equally (and all champs get nerfed roughly equally to compensate), or you remove keystones altogether.

Vistha Kai5 votes

At least with old masteries you could go like 10/10/10 or 30/0/0 and not lose anything.

Meanwhile with Keystones around you MUST fully commit into one tree, else you deliberately put yourself at a huge disadvantage.

Mastery changes on top of Keystones completely killed any diversity thereof. Like the only remaining choice for 90% of mages is "Do I want cookies or not?"

Not even Bethesda's "RPGs" are that shallow.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IEIus1J0,comment-id=000c0000000100000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-03T11:03:24.300+0000)

Meanwhile with Keystones around you MUST put 21 points into one tree, else you deliberately put yourself at a huge disadvantage.

18 points*

Toastersaot1 votes

{quoted}

What exactly do keystones bring to the game?

Champions like Zed, Riven, other TLD lane bullies, etc have completely unfair kill pressure in the laning phase when they were otherwise just fine before they got introduced. Fervor and Grasp allow tanks to go full tank and still deal a fuck ton of damage. Warlord used to be so strong it had to have 3/4 of what it gave removed from it.

And those are basically the only keystones everyone takes. SotA is meh since it just gives some stats and Windspeakers is only taken because there is nothing else some supports can take. All other keystones are pretty much useless.

So Deathfire Touch and Bond of Stone?

Junkο1 votes

And Stormraiders. SotA and Windspeakers are also very weak compared to others.

Vistha Kai7 votes

Of all things I don't care about Fervor.

And tanks aren't getting Fervor, because they are tanks. You meant "bruisers".

Teslium1 votes

Tank ekko, yasuo and what not, are pure tanks, since all of their items give at least 1 defensive stat.

Vistha Kai2 votes

So... they are bruisers? Duh.

Teslium1 votes

Forgot the komma.

Vistha Kai3 votes

Which makes it now even worse for you, because their items also give offensive stats. With Yasuo as an example, it's actually 4 items on average.

Which means they are bruisers.

IcyPepper5 votes

What tank gets fervor??

Micbran2 votes

"Tank" Yas build and "Tank" Ekko build.

IcyPepper5 votes

"Tank" Yas... blegh.

The sad part about tank Ekko is that tank Ekko actually fulfills the role of a tank... while still being some kind of weird fighter/assassin monstrosity...

EmollientNut02 votes

I love the rune system itself and I really believe it opens up some insane customization, but it definitely seems to be the case that some are plainly under-powered in comparison. Out of curiosity, any new developments in the mastery category that was lightly touched on there? I'd love to see some changes made, the ability to split points out of the 5 is almost 100% unused and could probably use some form of tweaking. Cheers!

Kinetika2 votes

Agreed about changing runes being a nice idea, but here's my issue:

I believe I have 20 rune pages, and I tend to use the same 4 or 5 regularly, but isn't there a 20 runepage cap on the client? I would like the ability to get more runepages for specific matchups (which is basically what the rest of my runepages are for), but those extra 15 or so pages are not enough space for all of the combos I feel I need. Plus it takes forever to click the runes into place (using the double click method) and then save before a match.

For example, most of my runes are based on AP, Armor, MR, Mana, Movement Speed, and Attack Speed. I don't have any runepages for energy based champs, but I'd like to have a few

maikokk1 votes

if, by pages for energy champs you mean CDR runes, im sure you can fit a page out of 20. if you mean energy runes, please dont. ever. even if energy champs where the only viable champs in the game youd still have no reason to buy them

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Agree with you on the more than 20 pages.

However, concerning putting runes into pages: Try rightclicking. Rightclicking a rune instantly distributes it into the page.

Bardful1 votes

what about mastery pages?

cupcaker1 votes

fuck off, ghostcrawler. you shit all over wow, and somehow you still got another job? did riot even take into account how HATED you were by a lot of the wow community? the only people who ever "loved" you were mage mains, and people who also hated melees

JRobin312 votes

"We disagree that Googling "Riven runes" is much of a test of player skill or game knowledge though." "In their current form, runes will probably always be something you just look up on the internet and copy from a guide, and that’s not awesome."

So let me get this straight, runes are so complicated that people need to conduct serious internet research just to figure out which runes are the best ones to take, but the quote from OP complains that runes are "too easily solved"?

I could go look up Riven runes and use those, but saying that makes runes simple is delirious trolling. If I'm learning Riven, I would have to go look up the best runes for her or spend hours trying to figure out what works best on her because runes are a complicated problem. If runes were actually "too easily solved", then I wouldn't have to look them up at all. I could just pick the best ones because it would be obvious what to use.

When I look at high ranked players' rune pages it's a mess. Multiple runes pages for single champions, countless efforts to figure out what runes to take because the number of rune pages is limited. Pages just being used experimentally because the META is constantly changing. And then a few players who take one or two rune pages just to stay away from the overwhelming complication that is runes or because it is an alternate account and they don't have 20 pages yet.

But despite all this... "look up on the internet and copy from a guide, and that's not awesome" is the sort of talk being made about runes. It sounds to me like some people just don't like having to do research to figure out what to use. It sounds to me like some people would be happier if runes were simpler and more easily balanced. Let's not get started on that! The difficulties in balancing these runes is a problem so deep RIOT doesn't want to touch it unless they absolutely have to.

In what world are runes "too easily solved"?

SergeantScuttler1 votes

{quoted}

"We disagree that Googling "Riven runes" is much of a test of player skill or game knowledge though." "In their current form, runes will probably always be something you just look up on the internet and copy from a guide, and that’s not awesome."

So let me get this straight, runes are so complicated that people need to conduct serious internet research just to figure out which runes are the best ones to take, but the quote from OP complains that runes are "too easily solved"?

I could go look up Riven runes and use those, but saying that makes runes simple is delirious trolling. If I'm learning Riven, I would have to go look up the best runes for her or spend hours trying to figure out what works best on her because runes are a complicated problem. If runes were actually "too easily solved", then I wouldn't have to look them up at all. I could just pick the best ones because it would be obvious what to use.

When I look at high ranked players' rune pages it's a mess. Multiple runes pages for single champions, countless efforts to figure out what runes to take because the number of rune pages is limited. Pages just being used experimentally because the META is constantly changing. And then a few players who take one or two rune pages just to stay away from the overwhelming complication that is runes or because it is an alternate account and they don't have 20 pages yet.

But despite all this... "look up on the internet and copy from a guide, and that's not awesome" is the sort of talk being made about runes. It sounds to me like some people just don't like having to do research to figure out what to use. It sounds to me like some people would be happier if runes were simpler and more easily balanced. Let's not get started on that! The difficulties in balancing these runes is a problem so deep RIOT doesn't want to touch it unless they absolutely have to.

In what world are runes "too easily solved"?

That's a very good point. The quoted statement is a bit contradictory and indeed, even at the pro level, there is more variation in runes than masteries. For example, some ADCs take AS glyphs while others go flat MR and some even go scaling MR vs passive lanes. I'm sure if you look hard enough, you'll find some mana regen, or scaling CDR glyphs.

Riot's discussing runes more here.

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