Riot is handling their PBE changes poorly IMO

LupusNox··15 votes·1,273 views

They change basically EVERYTHING and then 1-2 champions become OP for varying reasons. Instead of trying to come up with creative solutions for these champs, who have been balanced for years, Riots instant solution is to just nerf them, never mind what it will do to these champs if they aren't being played in the positions that makes them currently OP.

Case in point: Warwick and Pantheon .

Warwick is currently running amok on SR and has acquired a 90% ban rate and a 60% win rate. OP? I mean, he hasn't been touched in years, not since his S2 mana and damage nerfs to his Q. But Riots preseason changes created conditions that allowed warwick to thrive. Why? Tougher jungler, cheap sources of on-hit damage that are relevant throughout the game and the ability to SMITE champs. The creation of skirmishers, devourers, and making the jungle tougher so that his sustain actually matters and that most junglers have to choose between trying to clear and ganking at decent health. So what could stop Warwick from dominating the way that he currently is without turning him intoOlaf or Rengar ?

IDK, but I would have tried changing Skirmishers on-hit damage so that it could only be triggered once every 0.75 seconds. That way, it keeps its identity to on-hits while only being applied on his ult 2 times. You could have lowered the on-hit damage on devourers but doubled it vs jungle creeps. And you could have buffed other junglers such as Naut, Sej, Eve and others who can barely even survive in the new jungle so that it isn't a complete WW fest. Buff alternatives to skirmishers and rangers. Delete Poachers because it is the worst item ever and it GIVES AWAY WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO YOUR ENEMY SO THEY CAN WARD AND KILL YOU.

But, Riot, in true fashion, is planning to gut warwick in the coming patch.

Ult damage lowered at all levels to insignificant levels. W AS buff duration lowered by 40% at all ranks. Butchering the active on skirmishers so that the only real purpose is the 6 seconds of 20% less damage.

Or Pantheon . So, people exploit the fact that he can solo drag at level 2. Instead of changing dragon, which is the real problem here, since other champs can do what panth does, he just does it safer and easier than them, they go and nerf panths attack speed. Now he just has to take AS marks and wait till 3 and he'll still be able to do it.

Why not just turn dragon's basic attack into a spell with similar speeds, except now it hits in a sort of annie W cone in front of him. Suddenly, regardless of attack speed or attack blocks, champs like Pantheon and Fiora can no longer solo drag at such early levels.

IDK Riot, I understand that its preseason, but I've been here for 4 of them and for once I'd like to go through one where your first thought isn't to butcher the champs that are creating problems in your new updated game, but rather come up with creative solutions that fix the problem without hurting the champ. Buffs make everyone happy, fixes hurt no one, but nerfs just tend to piss people off. Even if you do think that you know best.

20 Comments

SmokingPuffin9 votes

So what could stop Warwick from dominating the way that he currently is without turning him intoOlaf or Rengar ?

What makes you think Warwick's PBE changes will do that? My read is that Warwick will be married to Devourer, but he's still going to be useful after the nerfs.

IDK, but I would have tried changing Skirmishers on-hit damage so that it could only be triggered once every 0.75 seconds.

They tried a similar thing with Skirmisher's earlier. Didn't work so great; Skirmisher's already has a lot of value with the exhaust and reveal effects, it doesn't need to have huge on-hit damage too.

And you could have buffed other junglers such as Naut, Sej, Eve and others who can barely even survive in the new jungle so that it isn't a complete WW fest.

That's happening. Eve was buffed last patch (probably needs more love still) and Sejuani has buffs on PBE.

No amount of buffs to underplayed junglers was going to catch them up to Warwick without creating a larger game health problem than he is.

Buff alternatives to skirmishers and rangers. Delete Poachers because it is the worst item ever and it GIVES AWAY WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO YOUR ENEMY SO THEY CAN WARD AND KILL YOU.

Very hard to buff your way out of this problem. Skirmisher's does so much damage on WW. Like, more than ignite. Do you want to make Stalker's deal more than an ignite worth of damage on a 60 second cooldown? I don't.

Or Pantheon . So, people exploit the fact that he can solo drag at level 2. Instead of changing dragon, which is the real problem here, since other champs can do what panth does, he just does it safer and easier than them, they go and nerf panths attack speed. Now he just has to take AS marks and wait till 3 and he'll still be able to do it.

Why not just turn dragon's basic attack into a spell with similar speeds, except now it hits in a sort of annie W cone in front of him. Suddenly, regardless of attack speed or attack blocks, champs like Pantheon and Fiora can no longer solo drag at such early levels.

Riot isn't interested in eliminating dragon solos. They want vision at dragon to be something worth fighting over. They just want to tone down the strongest cases.

By the by, they did also recode dragon's attack to address this topic too; I suspect the Pantheon AS nerf isn't only about dragon.

Buffs make everyone happy, fixes hurt no one, but nerfs just tend to piss people off. Even if you do think that you know best.

Buffs do not make everyone happy. Indiscriminate buffing causes power creep. When a champ is dominating the game, the solution is not buffs for other champions.

Killzerz2 votes

To add to your last point, endless buffing ends up looking like DoTA: everyone is enormously overpowered so it's balanced. So OP should go play DoTA. If you are playing League, suck it up. Nerfs are warranted and needed to maintain LoL being LoL. If you don't like it, there is another game AND community that will more than happily accept you.

Drogmyre3 votes

To add to your last point, endless buffing ends up looking like DoTA: everyone is enormously overpowered so it's balanced. So OP should go play DoTA. If you are playing League, suck it up. Nerfs are warranted and needed to maintain LoL being LoL. If you don't like it, there is another game AND community that will more than happily accept you.

Where the fuck did this stupid meme originate and why hasn't it died a horrible death yet?

Because it's blatantly and obviously false to anyone that's played DotA for awhile.

DotA has massively OP heroes and useless heroes just like LoL does. Icefrog nerfs a lot of heroes every patch but also buffs and changes others. A major point to make is that patches for DotA are REALLY REALLY REALLY few and far between: there are plenty of content (hats) updates, but very few balance patches. Unless something is horribly wrong, it might be several months in between patches.

Additionally, Heroes aren't the OP part of DotA. Items are. Items both provide counters to heroes, and counters to those counters, basically creating a strategic sub-game where he who itemizes the best wins.

Oh, Tidehunter's Ravage is 'OP'? Buy BKB, suddenly Ravage is completely useless. Oh, PA's dodge is broken? Buy MKB or get your mage to focus them, and she's useless. Oh, the enemy's damage is too high? Get Blade Mail and watch them literally kill themselves with their own damage.

There are a bare handful of abilities in the entire game that aren't counterable by items. Backtrack, Reincarnation, Bristleback, and maybe one or two more that I can't think of.

Everything else, and I mean EVERYTHING, has a counter in the item shop.

Fuck that stupid meme.

LoL's problem isn't that they're not buffing/changing instead of nerfing. LoL's problem is that they're nerfing nerfing nerfing and not buffing anything or changing anything that would actually solve the problem in a more constructive fashion. This is why we have a cyclical 'FotM' roster, because whatever's top tier gets nerfed, not whatever actually needs nerfing, and certainly not buffing or creating counters for it.

Junglers having a hard time with sustain, and Ranger's is OP? Change how the machete items work. Dragon Buff providing too much power? Swap the kills required around. Towers too weak? Buff towers. Warwick is unbalanced? Change the function of what's making him broken.

If Riot buffed or changed things that were problematic more than they nerfed them, maybe we'd have a healthier game where the meta isn't stagnant as hell and a huge portion of the champion roster is unused due to being outclassed or outright replaced.

I get that it's preseason and changes are a given. That doesn't mean the changes need to be massive nerfs to anything that gets good.

Teridax682 votes

If Riot buffed or changed things that were problematic more than they nerfed them, maybe we'd have a healthier game where the meta isn't stagnant as hell and a huge portion of the champion roster is unused due to being outclassed or outright replaced.

That's what they're doing. The whole point to the Preseason 5 changes was to overhaul the jungle and lanes on Summoner's Rift in order to eliminate core gameplay and strategic issues that had been plaguing the map since the very start, on top of enabling strategies that never really got a chance to be viable or healthy (or both). Not everything's perfect, but then again we're still in preseason, where crazy stuff is bound to happen, especially with changes of this magnitude. Riot has also been actively reworking champions and items more than they ever have before, to the point where some users actually complain about Riot reworking everything. Reworks are not instant, and are difficult to do right (you don't want to screw up and add critical design flaws), so it's perhaps not the best idea to expect immediate reworks to champions with unhealthy kits. As a few people mentioned above, it's generally better to nerf a champion that's too strong, rather than buff all of its competitors, because it leads to power creep, and can end up creating issues with an entire class of champions instead of just one.

This is why we have a cyclical 'FotM' roster, because whatever's top tier gets nerfed, not whatever actually needs nerfing, and certainly not buffing or creating counters for it.

That's not how FotM works. Sure, some champions rise to the top when others fall, but the meta for champion picks is heavily dependent on competitive picks, shifts in strategies and even changes to items (the AD item overhaul is what made Tristana top-tier, for example). It's also naive to hope that no champion becomes more popular than any other, due to how dominant strategies tend to favor certain champions and vice versa. Even in a perfect, hopefully eventual League of Legends, where every strategy is equally viable and every champion is perfectly balanced and healthy, there would still be momentarily dominant strats and champions, which would then get overtaken by champions and strategies good at dealing with them, and so on. Preseason 5 is a big step towards that. However, we're not there yet. Even with all the new and updated content, some parts of League are still ancient, and desperately need to be brought to present day standards (Warwick is just one example). The last thing Riot should do is rush these changes, since that could end up having a much more harmful effect on the game in the long run.

Kingsgrave3 votes

They did both the AS and recoding dragon auto on the pbe to deal with pantheon

They also only took 70 damage from late game Warwick ult and didn't touch devourer because it honestly is subpar on anyone that's not ww

Junkο1 votes

They took 15 dmg off Devourer

LankPants2 votes

They returned it in the last patch

LankPants2 votes

Panth is losing .054 base attack speed, this would be a fair nerf if he was a champ who liked to build a lot of attack speed, but I've never seen a Panth build BoRK so I think he'll be fine.

WW on the other hand has been absolutely dominant in the new jungle, on OGN last night four games were played, he was picked in two and banned in two, and not once did anyone buy item 3715 , rather people were buying item 3713 for greater clearspeed. Nerfing the devourer enchantment rather than WW makes no sence, considering other users of that enchantment (Fiora Jax Kayle MasterYi Nocturne Olaf Shyvana Udyr Volibear XinZhao ) are all fairly well balanced or need slight buffs.

Gorsz2 votes

Either tone down two champions who got hella buffed by the new changes.

OR

Revert all changes they did because two champions got too strong... common sense. Also is something really a "nerf" when they got indirectly buffed like crazy in the first place? Its called "re-balancing".

Killzerz2 votes

You're argument is that a 60% win rate champion doesn't need nerfs, in it's entirety. Please. And then you argue that Riot is bad because they are attempting to make more people viable in the jungle, and Riot is bad because they need to rebalance Warwick due to his latent power. So basically, screw everyone but Panth and WW not one of the other 100+ champions matters O MAH GOD MAH MAIN IS BEYING NURFD NOOOOOO. I'm losing faith in this community real fast. And god forbid they make Panth a little healthier so if he is weak after these changes, they can affect real change to what he should be doing: murdering people (AKA ganking jungler). If he's bad after these nerfs I trust Riot to make his intended playstyle healthier. Get off your high horse; some need to be toned down for the good of all the other champions (and WW is not going to get gutted; I feel he will still be a VERY strong jungler even after these nerfs).

Narog2 votes

Has the pre season achieve anything? ,season 4 was amazing for the jungle and support , but this pre season is not doing anything other that creating an unbalance environment , crabs and pointless lasers .

RoyaiChaos1 votes

imo You're understanding PBE changes poorly.

ThaPizzaMan1 votes

R.I.P Rammus R.I.P LoL Riot you shit on my hopes and dreams this is a patch I can't ignore I played 3 games and lost all 3 placed Silver 3 this season I even tried Jungling WW to no avail. Rammus is good for absolutely nothing. sorry i'm not open to your "oh well this is how you play now" it was a great last season I hope you got your moneys worth i'm done with this game.

ThaPizzaMan1 votes

Don't try to fix a game that isn't broken because well It's broken now.

ThaPizzaMan1 votes

I remember when they made a drastic change to Runescape for the first time. i'm sure you've heard of the game and they lost half of their Player base, then on the second drastic change they lost even more players and now it isn't even the same game. Kinda feels like whats happening here.

MrSc0tty2 votes

R.I.P Rammus R.I.P LoL Riot you shit on my hopes and dreams this is a patch I can't ignore I played 3 games and lost all 3 placed Silver 3 this season I even tried Jungling WW to no avail. Rammus is good for absolutely nothing. sorry i'm not open to your "oh well this is how you play now" it was a great last season I hope you got your moneys worth i'm done with this game.

Sorry what? Rammus is just fine.... Dude had like a 60% winrate in old jungle it's probably down to like...55% or something. I played him last night.

Go stalkers or trailblazer. Get a solid leash on blue then smite gromp, raptors for level 3 then demolish either mid or top with a Rammus gank before you go back for your machete upgrade.

Rammus gets mad armor for his W so the best thing to do is rush the insanely cost efficient Juggernaut then start in on your traditional Randuins/Banshee's hyper tank combo.

SIayton1 votes

Just make it so panth can't block dragon attacks with his passive. Is that such a hard problem to fix?

Warwick is a bit more complicated than that but really, he just needs a rework. The champ is so dated and boring, I feel like no one plays him that just isn't trying to win with as little effort as possible. For all I care that right clicking scrub magnet can burn.

2pudge1cup1 votes

I agree completely.

Ideally riot should just up the dragon's attack speed and lower the damage. But their MO has always been reactionary balance changes. I don't know if it's because they are incompetent or because their management is overly conservative on rolling out individual champ changes along with global game changes.

I wonder what will happen once their devs realize that both Zyra and Yorick can solo dragon early as well.

Vertanium1 votes

or udyr, and he is an actual viable jungler. Edit, Forgot shaco, nasus, and some others who can solo it at 6,

2pudge1cup1 votes

There's a huge difference between at 6 and at 2-3 which is where the yorick/zyra both end up, similar to fiora/panth.

Being able to solo a dragon at 6 is really not terribly gamebreaking/unusual. Being able to solo it at 2-3 is.

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