Riot Stashu has no idea what "indirect damage" or "e forcus'd kit" means

LupusNox·12/5/2014, 5:17:22 AM·22 votes·1,061 views

says changes to Cass in patch 4.21 will reduce her status as a hyper scaler by adding a buff to poison damage on targets hit with E while poisoned. In order to do this, they nerfed her rank 5 ratio of E. Stashu also thinks that this change increases her "indirect damage" by upping your poison damage when you hit a Q or W and can only get 1 E off.

This is all just complete trash and 4.21 will be a ninja nerf to cass disguized as a buff. All in all, Cass is just going to lose further AP ratio on her E, while still maintaining her utter reliance on it in Stashu's new kit. The poison damage is dumb, because her damage will go down since, while it increases her Q or W, thats a DoT, and E was instant with a 0.5 CD.

"But we wanted DoT say all the Cass mains" Not like this you don't. See, since she has to hit an E in order to access the damage increase, it doesn't matter to her over DPS since if she is in position to hit 1, she's probably going to hit 3-4 more at least before someone (her or her opponent) can get out of there without blowing an escape or dying, or new Cass just going full AP Rambo with her E machine gun. So shes going to be losing damage or trading straight DPS for DoT in any case that matters.

Stashu doesn't get that E being used IN EVERY SKILL SOMEHOW BECAUSE REASONS is a terrible idea. If you land a Q and can position for a follow up E, its still just gonna tickle. Cass is still gonna be in a terrible state, even after this patch, because the main issues haven't even been addressed yet by He Who Knows Best:

That her passive is counter productive and boring and a complete anti-skill (can grab tons of AP but shit ratios) That E being the centerpiece of her kit is horrible and turns her into AP Rambo at best That she is shit for 45 minutes and then she can kill stuff but will get blown up by any mobile bruiser/assassin who is ahead because they actually have an early/mid game.

Fix her NAO

7 Comments

chumbler12/5/2014, 7:24:20 AM9 votes

Keep fighting the good fight, friend. This rework should be reverted and stashu not allowed to touch any champion again (or allowed to touch only CertainlyT's). Even so, I know that your efforts are doomed, because Riot only doubles down on mistakes rather than admitting them.

But perhaps the most noble fights are righteous ones that those fighting them know are doomed to fail.

Noraver12/5/2014, 9:22:41 PM6 votes

Personally, I would prefer they just undid everything. Stashu is failing at this HARD.

Cass may not have been the strongest or most popular champion in the world, but she was FUN. Her rework came out of the blue and was totally unnecessary.

Malzahar isn't super powerful, but he's my favourite mid laner. You don't see Riot completely reworking his kit for no damn reason. (He doesn't need it so I swear to God Rito if you do...) The only reason they're trying to do that to Cass is because she basically won the Season 2 championships with the Yorick combo, and she hasn't been seen since. Now they're trying to bring her back into pro play again.

Stashu, if you read this, no offense or anything, but drop her rework. Just give it to someone else. You're not listening to any feedback we're actually trying to provide. Nobody wants a scaling passive. Nobody wants a Twin Fang-focused kit. Nobody wants a Cass rework to begin with.

REALLY want my old Cass back. Now I know how old Karma players feel. =/

Dig Dux12/5/2014, 7:24:20 PM5 votes

Generally giving a squishy mage with low amounts of cc, low long ranged damage, and low burst is a bad idea.

Cass had options at longer range with her q poke being useful and defensive options with zhonyas and her ult having good synergy with her posion pool.

She has no cc to peel assassins, no mobility to out run them (+30% ms is a joke), not enough burst to take them out, not enough ranged damage to poke them out. Not enough kiting power to kite them.

These new changes to move damage to the dot aspect of her e are going to further weaken her dps.

Not a big fan of the rework, they clouded Cassiopeia's identity as a dual range mage (high range q,w) (short range e). Now her q and w do much less, hence the machine gun mage identity.

The passive changes pretend to make her stronger but make her significantly weaker, since Riot heavily watered down her ap ratios to compensate making ap items weaker until she hits her stack sizes. Rather than giving her pieces of her passive as she gains stacks, she gets them all at oddly specific numbers, giving her power spikes at odd times, but putting her at a huge deficit if she cannot hit these caps quickly further gating her effectiveness.

Notably the fact that her poisons are all aoe is a HUGE deficit when laning. Since she is forced to use her poisons on minions, and she cannot trade well with her lane opponent she auto pushes the lane. If you auto push the lane you end up losing farm or risk a gank. Do you know how well Cass can escape a gank.... poorly.

All the Cassiopeia rework did was remove a huge amount of power from her q w and r for 80% of the game, and give a little extra power to her e. The new passive is deceptive, unclear and makes it a pain to figure out how much damage she can do when you start accounting for items. She also has the same problem old heimerdinger had with the gated cdr.

The design of new Cass is based entirely on a false choice, you can trade from distance and do TONS of DAMAGE, but the TONS of AP you have does not turn into TONS OF DAMAGE because you have trash ratios and really odd scalings that denote your power spikes and is not a stat that is easy to see and make sense of. Or you can go into close range and do TONS OF DAMAGE but the TONS of AP does not translate to TONS of DAMAGE. Furthermore you do not have any mechanisms that are essential at close range such as tankieness, or burst, or mobility. Your dps is gated by the soon to be dot effect of the poison and your capability to stay really close. Going into close range is even more of a detriment because you can get cc'd, if you get cc'd you lose ALL of your dps. If you lose all of your dps you become dead, because Cass has no deterrents to keep players off of her if they can get to her.

The nature of Cass's kit is **supposed **to make her strong early and a solid duelist mid game, the numbers say that she will be weak early because of how detrimental her passive is when combined with her ap ratios. Her late game gameplay is terrible due to how vulnerable she is to everything that can get in range to kill her due to squishyness. Due to her low range, mages can blow her up before she gets the chance to do TONS of DAMAGE. assassins can just gapclose and 100 - 0 her because she has no burst, she only has one piece of hard cc and that is on a 60s cd at the best of times.

False choices are op If you last hit well you still have to push the lane to grow in power or else those ap items will be worth much less than otherwise due to the lack of stacks. If you are fed you still have to get into close range to do a good amount of damage making you a huge target and being highly squishy with no escapes, not a good spot. You don't carry well into the late game due to your lackluster aoe and only single target dps, the time when your numbers say you should be good. You can't get ahead early due to your inability to out trade the other carry without going all in, due to the base ap ratios being trash.

Her entire design is a catch 22 and players are rightly complaining about it.

Quepha12/5/2014, 9:50:20 PM3 votes

you need to admit one of two things either the E reset is power for her Q because she has to land a poison to get the resets or the poison amplification is power for her Q because it increases the damage EVEN IF it comes from landing E's

one can be true, the other can be true, or both can be true to varying degrees, but it is logically impossible for both those statements to be 100% false and claiming otherwise just means you're reaching for an argument to why you can't find anything stashu touches to be fun.

Grand Eleven12/6/2014, 12:52:35 AM1 votes

I would suggest saving the threads until the changes go live for two reasons:

  1. It's always possible changes will make things better, and feedback will be better regardless (more accurate).
  2. It's pretty clear that most additional feedback is being put on the backburner until this hits live, so if you have some solid ideas ... save them for the next (hopefully stickied) thread.