Patch 6.14: Sona hits 58% WR. Gets hotfix nerfs. Receives more nerfs on the two following patches.

dunder kill·Mar 26, 2017·97 votes·6,903 views

Patch 7.6: Ivern hits 58% winrate. Nobody bats an eye.

192 Comments

LostFr0stMar 26, 201755 votes

"we're watching him, and think he's too strong, but no one complains about him so we won't nerf him yet"

Pika310Mar 26, 201722 votes

Except people are complaining. It's just Rito ignoring those complaints and then lying about them.

TheSingularityMar 26, 20175 votes

Compared to the public out cry after the marksman update, tank assassins, bruiser fiora top or about dynamic queue.......... this is nothing If one of those is worth the earth and its atmosphere worth of atoms (a number to big to even comprehend). Ivern complaints are worth a single Hydrogen atom. Basically comparing a goldfish to the entire human race. Or any other "this (ivern complaints) is shit and pewny while this is massive and crazy)

Chembaron YamadaMar 26, 201722 votes

The difference is just that Iverns impact is indirect.... he doesn't kill himself, but he is enabling his allies to kill that well that he is objectively too strong right now. But when people get killed by let's say Fiora even if she was just able to do so because she had an Ivern in her team, they will complain about Fiora being too strong....

In other words: The indirect nature of Ivern is deceiving his real power which leads to less complains.

Velzard of KozMar 26, 201710 votes

he doesn't kill himself

Yeah, that's Karthus job :^)

Chembaron YamadaMar 26, 20172 votes

Pardon, English isn't my first language, how do I phrase what I mean correctly? :)

EndlessSorcererMar 26, 201715 votes

It wasn't really phrased incorrectly, but it was ambiguous (it could be read multiple ways).

If you wanted to be clearer, I would recommend saying that "he doesn't kill people by himself".

LostFr0stMar 26, 201710 votes

People that understand Ivern are complaining, yeah. People that don't know how he works think it's just the Talon/Darius/Tryn/Kat/Draven/etc. that he's buffing that are doing all the work. Once they make his oppression more visible in the end of game stats it'll be obvious to everyone and they can nerf him from orbit.

He has the same problem as many new champs: he does too much. He's not only a mid-line enchanter, but he comes with a free front-line and his jungle clearing is almost impossible to contest if he has smite up.
Add that to him having a low econ ideal build (1-2 items up on everyone) and you get trouble.

Sure he can be countered and he's garbage if on his own, that's fine, but if he has Daisy or an ally good luck. He's annoying like Soraka, but worse since you can't debuff him.

LegendmakerGXMar 27, 20175 votes

Pika Pika my dear friend, Statistic SHOWS that Ivern is 97% balance from feed back! We can't show the statistics tho but we are telling the truth!

Ahegao BunnyMar 26, 201714 votes

{quoted}

"we're watching him, and think he's too strong, but no one complains about him so we won't nerf him yet"

noone complaint about Aatrox beeing to strong and he still got nerfed.

blueberrypancakeMar 26, 20175 votes

To be honest we was oppressive, especially when ahead against a team lacking cc (note: he carried me to gold)

Ahegao BunnyMar 26, 20174 votes

{quoted}

To be honest we was oppressive, especially when ahead against a team lacking cc (note: he carried me to gold)

He was oppressive when ahead. Wow. Nerf him till he cant do shit even when ahead

Edit: Wait. They did it already

AirKingNeoMar 26, 20177 votes

Woah, champions being oppressive when ahead. Who would that be?

Pantheon? Every mage? Jhin? Irelia? Jax? Kled? I could go on.

DessemMar 26, 20175 votes

That was a response to my question, too. Never got back to me about why/how playrates factor into it, but I think it means if we banned Ivern more they'd be more willing to nerf him.

Like, this is the champion who loses the most games to Shacos, and still retains a 50.89% winrate according to lolalytics.

EDIT: Like, look at this guy: 220 games played, 68% winrate, and he's a Challenger. 68% winrate in Challenger over 220 games by spamming the same champion over and over, but so far he's considered "not a balance concern". It's crazy.

ClementineMar 26, 201726 votes

"Fuck supports"

dunder killMar 26, 201728 votes

Some of them I would yeah

Sona Janna Karma Lux MissFortune

Skins ProjectMar 26, 20176 votes

TMI

Nik NikersonMar 26, 201730 votes

You forgot TahmKench

An Undead bratMar 26, 201718 votes

Taric ???

Velzard of KozMar 26, 20178 votes

I got all wet for him.

MelledoneusMar 26, 20173 votes

http://ci.memecdn.com/8984075.gif

There it is.

Cosmic WarperMar 26, 20178 votes

{quoted}

http://ci.memecdn.com/8984075.gif

There it is.

This made me uncomfortable

Yuzuki YukarinMar 26, 201713 votes

You didn't even bother including the best ones:

Annie Lulu

Compared to those old hags, these are incomparably better.

Chembaron YamadaMar 26, 20179 votes

Legal Loli Lulu Illegal Loli Annie

Please learn the difference...

And btw: Lulu is probably the oldest "hag" in that list. xD

Yuzuki YukarinMar 26, 20175 votes

Point being, I was mocking his lewd and inappropriate comment that the lazy ass moderators will ignore, just like they ignore all lewd posts. Well, all posts in general get ignored by moderation, but I digress.

Ignoring the debate on whether imaginary characters can be "illegal," Lulu's situation is open for interpretation. Chronologically, she was born at a much earlier date, but biologically her age isn't much older. So she spent a few days in a pocket dimension where time moved super slow and hundreds of years passed outside. That doesn't make her a hag and even if it did, she's still no less ripe for the picking.

lolipopevelynnMar 26, 201710 votes

{quoted}

Legal Loli Illegal Loli

Please learn the difference...

And btw: Lulu is probably the oldest "hag" in that list. xD

pretty sure annie is legal age right now considering how long she has been out. still waiting on that adult/teenage annie legendary.

blueberrypancakeMar 26, 20174 votes

"1/10 people live next to a pedophile

I'm not one of them, I just live next to a 10-year old with a really nice ass"

-Filthy Frank

CanastusMar 26, 20175 votes

You forgot the best one. Soraka

OHminusMar 26, 20176 votes

You forgot Alistar . Can't milk those >_>

Sheen EstevezMar 26, 201724 votes

Blitz always has 54% in high and low elo no one cares

Pika310Mar 26, 201716 votes

Winrate propaganda aside(LB & Yas were both nerfed when they were already at like 43% winrate,) enchanters aren't allowed to be good in this game. Sona in particular is strongly hated by a number of influential Rito employees; Meddler, Jag, Repertoir; I could list a dozen names, but those are 3 of the big ones. Also, Ivern is brand new and filled with potential for #LC$BIGPLAY$, in a time when their viewership is declining for multiple unrelated reasons, Rito is trying to increase revenue from pro games. Sona was everywhere in season 2, Meddler as a Janna main is tired of seeing her strongest counter enough for one lifetime.

Short answer: BIAS. Pure simple Rito BIAS.

VerdadeMar 26, 20179 votes

I like how you are intentionally ignoring skill requirements for both champions...

Sona is faceroll QWE with autotargeting on 4/5 of her kit with decent MS/survivability

Ivern is jungler with worst ability to trade, can't 1v1 for shit, his abilities require considerable timing and skill input and most his abilities can backfire

Pika310Mar 26, 201710 votes

Did you really just claim Sona, the champion with the lowest effective HP in the game, has survivability? Did you just say a champion with 325 base MS, the lowest MS tier in the game, has decent MS?

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say. I legitimately feel pity for you.

13900 EssenceMar 26, 201712 votes

She has a heal/shield and a movespeed buff.

He isn't wrong.

Yuzuki YukarinMar 26, 20179 votes

Except he **IS **wrong though:

Weakest heal in the game
Weakest shield in the game
Shortest-duration shield in the game
Crappy MS that's weaker than Nami's passive

Literally everyone has blinks and dashes, Sona is a free kill or a free burned Flash the moment anybody looks at her funny.

VerdadeMar 26, 20174 votes

Sona has item 3190 item 3107 item 2049 in her core build, and that alone makes her tankier than half of the roster.

Sion has 1784 base HP and 74 base armor, Zed has 1939 HP and 86 armor. Therefore, according to your own logic, Sion is squishy and Zed is tank

As far MS goes, Sona can have permanent 14%(0.06AP) MS with 0% CDR at level 16+, which alone makes her more mobile than half of the roster. Additionally, item 3504 item 3100 are very popular on her, making her move even faster and buffing her MS boost as well.

Sona with T2 boots, LB and Censer has: 325+26 (censer)+22(LB)+45(T2 boots)+73 (E) - soft cap reduction = 475 PERMANENT MOVEMENT SPEED which makes her extremely mobile.

chipndip1Mar 26, 201711 votes

{quoted}

Sona has in her core build, and that alone makes her tankier than half of the roster.

Sona doesn't start level 1 with a Locket and Redemption.

Sion has 1784 base HP and 74 base armor, Zed has 1939 HP and 86 armor. Therefore, according to your own logic, Sion is squishy and Zed is tank

No. Sion has an infinitely scaling HP passive, so he starts out squishy to make room for his INFINITELY SCALING HP PASSIVE.

As far MS goes, Sona can have permanent 14%(0.06AP) MS with 0% CDR at level 16+, which alone makes her more mobile than half of the roster. Additionally, are very popular on her, making her move even faster and buffing her MS boost as well.

What support gets to level 16 consistently enough for this point to matter?

Sona with T2 boots, LB and Censer has:

Why are you putting items in your depiction of Sona's mobility?

chipndip1Mar 26, 201711 votes

How is the lowest base movement speed in the game "decent", and how is being one of the squishiest champs in the game with no hard cc on a basic spell "decent survivability"?

To boot, Sona can't 1v1 for shit just as much as Ivern can't. And how does Ivern's abilities BACKFIRE outside of using W next to Teemo/Rengar/Khaz'ix?

VerdadeMar 26, 20175 votes

Yeah, let's pretend Sona doesn't burst you for at least 1/2 of your hp every time she can ;) Sona is very decent at 1v1.

As for backfiring, his passive costs 1/3 of his health in early game which makes him extremely vulnerable. If he marks multiple camps he dies to breeze.

Allies dying from clicking on Q'd target? Every. Fucking. Game.

W? It can really backfire when enemy zones you out of these brushes, if you don't have a ward on hand you're giving your enemy SERIOUS advantage.

E's duration is rather short for a shield, specifically 2.5x shorter than Janna's. This means it's reactive rather than proactive. Slow/damage is very telegraphed as well as easy to dodge.

chipndip1Mar 26, 20179 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, let's pretend Sona doesn't burst you for at least 1/2 of your hp every time she can ;) Sona is very decent at 1v1.

Blatant hyperbole and you know it.

As for backfiring, his passive costs 1/3 of his health in early game which makes him extremely vulnerable. If he marks multiple camps he dies to breeze.

By that logic any mana expenditure "can backfire".

Allies dying from clicking on Q'd target? Every. Fucking. Game.

Fair.

W? It can really backfire when enemy zones you out of these brushes, if you don't have a ward on hand you're giving your enemy SERIOUS advantage.

You have vision within the bush for like half the time they're up. I guess the better phrasing would be "How does Ivern backfire when played by someone that's played him more than 3 times?"

E's duration is rather short for a shield, specifically 2.5x shorter than Janna's. This means it's reactive rather than proactive. Slow/damage is very telegraphed as well as easy to dodge.

That isn't backfiring.

RozzetaMar 26, 20179 votes

For most of Riot, Sona, or any kind of support with the ability to heal from a the backline for that matter, is a special kind of evil. Back in season 3, Morello and Xypherous went out of their way to express how much they hated her, specially her ultimate. In fact, Lulu was made by Xhypheours using Sona as an example of what NOT to do, hence her passive requiring constant enemy interaction by staying in auto range, large HP pool against mana pool, and complete lack of healing aside from ultimate's HP boost. And then, Lulu was used better as a top laner...

RequiemsfireMar 26, 20177 votes

To be honest though Sona is easily one of the more oppressive supports when she's strong,

Yuzuki YukarinMar 26, 201712 votes

Sona hasn't been oppressive since her nerf all the way back in patch 3.8. She hasn't been strong since she was gutted in 3.14. Hell, Sona has been a troll pick every day since 4.13 went Live, I'm amazed anyone even realizes she exists, other than real Sona players(who have **all **abandoned her and some have quit the game altogether.) Picking Sona will just get you flamed by your own teammates and Intentional Feeding reports from both teams.

RequiemsfireMar 26, 20177 votes

How is Sona weak? I get that you might not believe her to be oppressive but she's actually very strong although she would idealistically be picked into certain matchups comps rather than simply blind picked.

She sees a strong winrate across all elos up to diamond. She still sees some play in challenger but winrates are always very static in that particular bracket.

AhristocatsMar 26, 201710 votes

{quoted}

She still sees some play in challenger

lmao like what, 50 games per 30 days?

TyrekGoldenspearMar 26, 20178 votes

Considering the pool of people in challenger, it's not that bad. :P

AhristocatsMar 26, 20179 votes

it is i don't know if you're serious on this or not considering that you have a great sense of humor

but nearly every champions are picked in challenger, Sona is among the champs that are the least played 50 games over 30 days when you have nearly 15 000 games or more is very bad

TyrekGoldenspearMar 26, 201710 votes

It makes perfect sense why Sona isn't popular in challenger.

She's too generalized with no damage without expensive items.

She's too squishy.

She has no peel until 6.

She has to get rather expensivr items to make the same impact as similar enchanters.

She has to get too close to the action while being squishy.

AhristocatsMar 26, 201711 votes

Yes, but to some people apparently it doesn't make sense that sona isn't popular in challenger

let me tell you that she's GARBAGE in challenger, she has no use except: -going full ap and oneshot people (cough AWildAPSona)

she needs a galio lvl of rework, her 5 current spells are just no bueno if you want to balance her in all levels

chipndip1Mar 26, 20177 votes