Zed's 49% Win Rate

RocketRelm·May 27, 2016·113 votes·5,696 views

So I came across this thought, about Zed being "49% Win Rate" and "Balanced and can't get direct nerfs". I got to thinking, he's banned in 90% of games, who even has the experience to play him? Half the people playing him are probably first time people picking him just because OP, that's probably tanking his Win Rate. Then I thought, what is his win rate for high games played? In Plat+ Games?

http://champion.gg/champion/Zed

15 Games Played: 47.12%

125+ Games Played: 54.12%

: "I wonder where I've seen this before." (For reference, Azir who is getting nerfed, has a 125+ Win Rate of 53.85%)

(Edit: I'm kind of fascinated by the downvotes. I'm explicitly taking data from Plat+ Ranked. Azir was explicitly nerfed for this reason. If there's somewhere I'm wrong, I'd like to hear it instead of having to assume it's a few salty Zed mains trying to downvote quietly.)

90 Comments

stealthfox94May 27, 201637 votes

I think back when Kassadin had a 90% ban rate his win rate was something like 48.5%

MunchCrunchLunchMay 27, 201634 votes

because people picked him thinking its a free win and they had no idea how to play him

EddardStark84May 28, 201620 votes

{quoted}

because people picked him thinking its a free win and they had no idea how to play him

Which is similar to zed right now.

CheekynorthMay 28, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Which is exactly to zed right now.

Fixed

RalimakMay 28, 201616 votes

{quoted}

Which is exactly the same as Zed right now.

Fixed.

ZackeryssMay 28, 20166 votes

yknow somethings just wrong if you have to fix a fix

RalimakMay 28, 20163 votes

Lol. Don't know what the world is coming to, these days...

CheekynorthMay 28, 20163 votes

Wow. I just saw that mistake in the fix. Sometimes I'm just an idiot who intends to type one thing but then types another (Ex: intention: 'Jhin help me get Baron' Actual: 'Jhin get Baron')

A Miss FortuneMay 29, 20162 votes

Intention: "Have a nice day." Actual: "Kill yourself you have nothing to live for anyway."

Best way to avoid suspensions.

RocketRelmMay 29, 20161 votes

Intention: "GJ"

Actual: "GJ", but in the context of the enemy dying to you and giving you blue buff.

Pierce The VealMay 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Intention: "GJ"

Actual: "GJ", but in the context of the enemy dying to you and giving you blue buff.

What I say: "glhf!"

What I actually think: "get lag have feeders!"

tophitMay 28, 20161 votes

Riot has to do it all the time. Go figure.

StonemperorMay 28, 20162 votes

It's actually a combination of a shit-ton of different variables, not just how-well the player can play him

ElikainMay 28, 20161 votes

Uh... wasn't Kassadin an LCS "pick or ban" champion? If pros were the ones who set the trend then you know it was something broken behind the scenes about him.

I also want to make something clear, no matter how hard of a champion it is to learn, if you see pros playing them and they lead by example, then the overall skill level to learn the said champion goes significantly down. Because you have all these people already knowing what the right path to play him, they just don't have the experience and this is done by playing games.

For a long while, Zed has been considered as a high skill pick until you saw all the pro clips of him and eventually, the things Zed can do is common knowledge for an average Zed player.

KAYLE TURBO INTMay 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Uh... wasn't Kassadin an LCS "pick or ban" champion? If pros were the ones who set the trend then you know it was something broken behind the scenes about him.

I also want to make something clear, no matter how hard of a champion it is to learn, if you see pros playing them and they lead by example, then the overall skill level to learn the said champion goes significantly down. Because you have all these people already knowing what the right path to play him, they just don't have the experience and this is done by playing games.

For a long while, Zed has been considered as a high skill pick until you saw all the pro clips of him and eventually, the things Zed can do is common knowledge for an average Zed player.

completely not true, an average zed cannot get even close to the likes of faker, bdd, ryu, bjergson lmao

ElikainMay 28, 20161 votes

And where have i said that an average Zed can play like the pros? Nowhere and shame on you for assuming i did. All i said was that the general Zed knowledge is far higher where it used to be and that was due to Zed's popularity. Meaning that people don't have to try and experiment with his skills or placements, all you have to do is change the build if you have a specific way you'd like to go with him.

Guy Fox TeemoMay 28, 20161 votes

I'd like proof of this because kassadin was beyond op more so then zed , his ult did 400 damage on like 1 stack at full stacking up to the point of one shot, he also had a point and click silence and his ap ratios were insanely high , not to mention he got mana back for every time he autod instead of just when you use it

WoonStruckMay 28, 201612 votes

Kass was OP because his mobility and damage were too high, despite having a garbage early game.

If you remove the garbage early game and replace with completely safe and reliable laning, it sounds remarkably similar to Zed's case.

Kuroi86May 28, 20163 votes

Zed takes a little more practice than Kass does, but yeah, he does need toning down in a few places.

WoonStruckMay 28, 201614 votes

Removing the unneeded ghost on his ult.

The bonus AD ratio on W that only effectively buffs his auto attacks when he already has his passive (abilities could be compensated with ratio buffs relevant to what the passive offered)

The CDR on W for landing E that accomplishes nothing for his core gameplay, and only adds unnecessary safety.

The 90% slow on E*2, that could easily be reduced to 60% total (30% base + 30% shadow) without detracting any real power away from his current patterns, while granting him a far less oppressive slow.

You mean like addressing these things first, rather than everyone screaming to gut him? lol

SpongebobIsLifeMay 28, 20161 votes

i can agree with removing the bonus ad ratio on w, and possibly the e. The rest i dont agree with.

WoonStruckMay 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

i can agree with removing the bonus ad ratio on w, and possibly the e. The rest i dont agree with.

Why don't you agree with a portion of his ult that's entirely unnecessary ebing removed?

Why wouldn't you agree with reducing a 90% slow (when he's in melee) to a 60% slow? He will never feel the difference.

If you were talking about the other aspect of E, why does he need that CDR to his W when he's already pretty damn safe?

Just curious.

Kuroi86May 28, 20162 votes

I'm more for tuning his mechanics to be more risk/reward.

Like his ult shadow. What if it were locked behind the death mark, unless you proc it (the shuriken appears above your targets head to show the death mark will kill them) you cannot jump back to your ult shadow.

Or his W bonus AD, what if it was lost when W was on cooldown? Wouldn't affect his early game much, but it would have a pretty noticeable impact on his late game.

JMoormannMay 28, 20163 votes

That first thing would make him so ridiculously feast or famine during teamfights. It means that either you have enough damage to get the target into kill zone and get out, or you don't and you just get blown up.

And to account for a feast or famine champion where famine makes him just useless, the feast case has to be insanely strong.

My Waifu VanillaMay 29, 20161 votes

That is already how Zed functions in teamfights though. He goes in and hopes he can kill his target before he dies/gets CC'ed. Nothing changes here.

KAYLE TURBO INTMay 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Kass was OP because his mobility and damage were too high, despite having a garbage early game.

If you remove the garbage early game and replace with completely safe and reliable laning, it sounds remarkably similar to Zed's case.

kass' early game used to be great actually, his q had a 1.6 second silence rank 1 and had very high base dmg and scaling

stealthfox94May 28, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Guy Fox Teemo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aoPjnbQH,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-05-28T00:36:03.501+0000)

I'd like proof of this because kassadin was beyond op more so then zed , his ult did 400 damage on like 1 stack at full stacking up to the point of one shot, he also had a point and click silence and his ap ratios were insanely high , not to mention he got mana back for every time he autod instead of just when you use it

I don't think they keep win rates from over 2 years ago but his win rate wasn't high because on the off chance that he wasn't banned teams generally begged their mid laner to pick him even though in many cases they didn't know how to play him.

Lady HammerlockMay 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think back when Kassadin had a 90% ban rate his win rate was something like 48.5%

his ban rate was so high not because he was broken,it was because his kit was so damn Toxic,obnoxious,frustrating and unhealthy nobody wanted to go up against him

GayFluffyUnicornMay 28, 20163 votes

ofc kassadin was ridiculously overpowered. 2,5 sec silence. 235 or 270 base dmg on Q and E+ 1,0 Ap ratio. Low CDs. AOE ult with insane base and ap ratio dmg.

Vistha KaiMay 29, 20161 votes

Also his ult was cheaper, had much higher AP ratio and wasn't a Rift Step.

Z46May 28, 20161 votes

Toxic, obnoxious, frustrating, and unhealthy; nobody wanted to go up against him

So... Zed and Yasuo? I think Tahm Kench and Kalista can be added to the list, too.

Mandang0May 28, 20161 votes

Exactly, and Riot dragged their feet for an entire season with him too.

KAYLE TURBO INTMay 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think back when Kassadin had a 90% ban rate his win rate was something like 48.5%

yeah except players with high games played on kass had like 70% winrates LOL

1 800 GGTOOEZMay 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think back when Kassadin had a 90% ban rate his win rate was something like 48.5%

You're thinking of immediately post-rework Kassadin, who was nerfed for first timers but became even more broken in the hands of experienced players. Pre-rework, he had 52-53% winrate.

LordBrascaMay 28, 20166 votes

If a champion is permabanned there is obviously something wrong, even if he has a 45% winrate it should either be nerfed or changed. You can bring % winrate / popularity or whatever you want but if 90% of lol community that plays ranked doesn't want to play agaisnt that specific champ then there is something of terribly wrong with him.

fullbacks63May 27, 20164 votes

ITs because zed is too busy taking everyones damn kills on his team no one gets fed besides him.

Yeah youre probably right, zed is a kind of skilled mid laner, but once you master him. he is really easy to run with and destroy other mid laners.

Kuroi86May 28, 20164 votes

High skill floor, low skill cap. >_>

The Yetii RiderMay 28, 20164 votes

Zed's win rate isn't the issue Riot is tackling. It's his ban rate. Riot is attempting to lower frustration for players who lane against Zed so they stop banning him so often.

LuggMay 28, 20163 votes

If you look at the high skill required champions across the board, they need to have an overall 45% win rate to be close to balanced. 49% win rate on Zed is like a 58% win rate on a normal champ.

SlashStrikerMay 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If you look at the high skill required champions across the board, they need to have an overall 45% win rate to be close to balanced. 49% win rate on Zed is like a 58% win rate on a normal champ.

winrates on champions 57% karthus No 1 55% swain No 2 54% Anivia No 3 54% Voli No 4 ..... 49% Zed No 125 http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend

That zed balance man

i think balance should be around 50%. The more pick rates a champion has the lower winrate should have. If the champion has high Winrate and High Pickrate then the champion is overpowered If a champion has low win rate and low pick rate than the champion sucks or is underpowered

CrazedPorcupineMay 28, 20163 votes

Look at their Play % and champions win % when people have more than 50 games with them.

Azir has around a 42% winrate normally, with it approaching nearly 55% with over 125 games played on Azir. Just becuase someone has an overal low winrate on average, you have to take into account the power of the champion at their skill cieling, their max potential.

SwapShadowsMay 28, 20161 votes

If you did not play when Kass was op then do not even remotely talk about it.

He was literally one of the most strongest and broken champions in the entire game, Comparing zed to kassadin is one of the stupidest things I have seen on boards in a while.

macromiteMay 28, 201623 votes

{quoted}

most strongest

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/DBg-ckMsGxU/hqdefault.jpg

BloodyTomponMay 28, 20163 votes

Where did you get that photograph of me?

NichtHurzMay 28, 20161 votes

Mmmh yeah, it was extremely stupid how Kass just jumped all around the map, being uncatchable while roaming for every kill he could get, BUT you could shut him down early game if you punished him hard in lane. If you're not an explicit Zed counter it becomes almost impossible to deny him farm, which leads to Zed almost always having the gold he needs to get some early kills. There's no part that feels rewarding when playing against Zed if you aren't 1000AP Veigar just instadeleting him.

nuclearwarpotatoMay 28, 20161 votes

Kass's laning phase wasn't nearly as bad as people make it out to have been. Sure he could be punished but that silence and passive made it difficult for most ap champs pre-6.

NichtHurzMay 28, 20161 votes

I played alot of Pantheon during this time and also took him mid to counter Kass during early game. That worked pretty well, of course there were a lot less super-mobile champs or AD champs in the mid lane, but it wasn't impossible to take Kass down, especially since there were alot of sheeple just playing him "cuz free elo". Zed is maybe not as near to being super imbalanced, but he's pretty close regarding how annoying he's to deal with. My problem isn't really Zed's level of power (a little bit of course, since I play ADC quite often), but just the way he works and how it feels playing against him. Even if I win against Zed it often doesn't feel good encountering, while there are champs that are way more imbalanced I still don't feel like they're as problematic as Zed (subjectively, ingame).

KAYLE TURBO INTMay 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I played alot of Pantheon during this time and also took him mid to counter Kass during early game. That worked pretty well, of course there were a lot less super-mobile champs or AD champs in the mid lane, but it wasn't impossible to take Kass down, especially since there were alot of sheeple just playing him "cuz free elo". Zed is maybe not as near to being super imbalanced, but he's pretty close regarding how annoying he's to deal with. My problem isn't really Zed's level of power (a little bit of course, since I play ADC quite often), but just the way he works and how it feels playing against him. Even if I win against Zed it often doesn't feel good encountering, while there are champs that are way more imbalanced I still don't feel like they're as problematic as Zed (subjectively, ingame).

you truly forget how cancerous a half-brained kassadin was... you forgot

Best KhaZix VoidMay 28, 20161 votes

he's banned 90% of the time because people are sheep and don't realize the QSS change doesn't really mean anything, if zed was going to kill you he would kill you regardless of whether or not you popped his mark early or not.

NichtHurzMay 28, 20163 votes

It does mean a lot. If I don't have a strong heal/shield support or don't have my heal up as an adc he can reliably kill you by using R+E+AA, especially when he has Duskblade. With QSS I had the chance to get away when he misses his Shuriken and it made it easier to get away from him while also getting rid of his ult. Now he doesn't need to commit even the smallest bit to kill me, even when he's not fed to a point where he "oneshots" me anyways.