Can Giant Killer not be a generic +15% damage boost?

RocketRelm·Nov 5, 2015·120 votes·5,369 views

Lord Dominik's Regards UNIQUE Passive - Giant Slayer: Grants up to 15% Damage against enemy champions with greater maximum health than you (+1.5% damage per 50 health difference, maxing at 500 health difference).

Adcs will, most of the time, have less HP than most other people. A mid laner who takes RoA qualifies for the full damage boost here, because +600 HP. Can we lengthen the scaling bar so that the enemy needs to actually be a tank for full effectiveness? Something like the below?

UNIQUE Passive - Giant Slayer: Grants up to 15% Damage against enemy champions with greater maximum health than you (+1.5% damage per 100 health difference, maxing at 1000 health difference).

114 Comments

Shadow GilgameshNov 5, 201548 votes

I just wish it was on an item that didn't build from Last Whisper.

Something punishing/countering BOTH HP stacking and armor stacking is a big part of why people hate Vayne's silver bolts, now there's gonna be an item with the same problem that anyone can buy.

OyddAWqJ5rNov 6, 201521 votes

What's even worse: Vayne can buy it... And BotRK. Dear gawd.

SKOBODONov 6, 20152 votes

The damage increase won't boost her Silver Bolts though, and neither will the armor penetration. True Damage is funny like that. With that being said, she will be really good at killing tanks.

ShatoSummonerNov 6, 20153 votes

I believe true damage benefits from generic damage amplifications though. If the tooltip only says "damage", then its all damage. Good examples of this are swain e and vlad ult increasing ignite damage.

ButtsubushiNov 6, 20153 votes

True Damage = Not modified by ANY BUFFS or DEFUFFS.

Whatever damage it says it will do is final, it will not be increased or decreased by any means.

This item I feel needs to be something like: UNIQUE Passive - Giant Slayer: Basic Attacks deals up to 30% more damage against enemy champions with greater maximum health than you (+3% damage per 100 health difference, maxing at 1000 health difference). 10 second cooldown.

Kitten of EvilNov 5, 201533 votes

I hadn't thought about this, but you're absolutely right. Mages frequently build item 3027 item 3151 or item 3116 while still being pretty damn squishy. Any one of these items will push you well above an ADC's HP, since ADCs almost never build more than Doran's Blade of health.

Anivia level 18 (lowest HP in the game) 1657 HP + 500 HP (RoA) = 2157 HP. Brand level 18 1800 HP + 300 HP (Liandry's) = 2100 HP Jinx level 18 1912 HP. 2157-1912 = 245 HP, 7.35% increased damage for Jinx against Anivia. 2100-1912 = 188 HP, 5.64% increased damage for Jinx against Brand.

Also, mid-laners almost always have a level (and thus max HP) advantage over ADCs.

Just ... why? If it's a tank buster item, your solution makes way more sense. Tanks will usually have 2800+ HP (and sometimes well over 4000).

Ariel the CruelNov 5, 201523 votes

Because it's the ADC rework.

PrimaquariusNov 5, 201519 votes

If the enemy ADC gets Frozen Mallet, their life is in danger

SlytherinUmbreonNov 6, 20158 votes

Urgod lives in the Danger Zone Urgot

WestonbirtNov 6, 20155 votes

It's k, they nerfed item 3071 health and the rest of his core has no health.

My Waifu VanillaNov 6, 20153 votes

They nerfed pretty much all of his items. FH? Nerf. BC? Nerf. Manamune? Costs more. Last Whisper? Big Nerf since you better not be hitting tanks. Brutalizer? Resting with the Pepperonis.

The only new stuff he got that I can see being good/decent is Maw/Death's Dance/Ghostblade, however, these items make him pretty squishy compared to what he needs to function (yeah I played with the new ult and I honestly didn't feel a thing since I STILL died channeling it so I don't know if it was just bugged or hardly noticeable since on paper 50% DR should be enough to let me survive for the 1.5 second channel or whatever it is but when a relatively fed Lucian can walk up and combo me and kill me while I am channeling despite having roughly 3k+health with shield on and 50% DR after resistances I see a problem).

I only played one game as him on PBE so my opinion probably isn't that great but itemizing for him now felt pretty bad (which is saying something when it isn't much better on live) and while I still have an excellent mid game, in order to FULLY capitalize on it I had to go somewhat glass cannon and was punished for it despite being like 7/2 by 20 minutes and snowballing mid and top. New ghostblade is great since Urgot hated crit and has a good ratio on Q to benefit from the 35 extra AD or whatever it is, but it is a huge money sink to buy since you pretty much have to buy both parts anyway early on since you need the ArP and CDR (and they both build into maw/cleaver) but it makes you extremely squishy. Most of the bulky items that Urgot would probably like are melee exclusive, or at least vastly superior on a melee (basically every tanky armor item since Rand, DMP, etc.) and most damage items either have crit or rely on on a situational passive to give the Urgod the bulk he needs to be relevant.

WestonbirtNov 6, 20152 votes

Manamune, the single most important item on Urgot has only seen a 200g increase.
Frozen Heart hasn't been nerfed, price increased by a mere 200g.
Black Cleaver has arguably been nerfed, although it's been made more into an offensive item.
Last Whisper was only efficient against tanks to begin with. I rarely built it.
Brutalizer is very rarely built by Urgot. The combination Frozen Heart and Cleaver already gives you all the CDR.

I mean, hell, itemization on Urgot has never been good. He's a ranged AD caster, also known as the misfits. It arguably used to be worse back when Cleaver was less synergetic and his shield didn't scale with total mana.

Seriously, it could have been a lot worse. Death's dance could have given Life Steal instead of that physical damage thing, Ghostblade could have not been changed. Also, Tiamat has been significantly hit. It can be built faster but a lot of its features have been hacked and a number of top laners will be hit by this.

My Waifu VanillaNov 6, 20153 votes

The problem is is that he needs bulk to live due to his inherently short range on anything that is NOT a seeking Q (which requires hitting E that is also not the highest range in the world) but he also needs damage to be relevant since while he may have good bases and one of the best mid games in the game, he falls off super hard after level 15 and only really gets a powerspike in that time on completion of Muramana. He is in the same boat as Varus where they basically have 4 levels of being potentially the strongest on the map but just start declining from there due to weird itemization and just not scaling that well. I mean sure you can't IGNORE either late game but they do more or less become poke/cc bots at that point that can typically be dealt with by collateral damage (no Graves ult).

WestonbirtNov 6, 20153 votes

You know what they say ; Urgot can't carry, his arms are too short.

BTW, do you play him bot ? That might explain why we seem to be on different frequencies.

SkiasNov 6, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Manamune, the single most important item on Urgot has only seen a 200g increase.

Frozen Heart hasn't been nerfed, price increased by a mere 200g.

Black Cleaver has arguably been nerfed, although it's been made more into an offensive item.

Last Whisper was only efficient against tanks to begin with. I rarely built it.

Brutalizer is very rarely built by Urgot. The combination Frozen Heart and Cleaver already gives you all the CDR.

I mean, hell, itemization on Urgot has never been good. He's a ranged AD caster, also known as the misfits. It arguably used to be worse back when Cleaver was less synergetic and his shield didn't scale with total mana.

Seriously, it could have been a lot worse. Death's dance could have given Life Steal instead of that physical damage thing, Ghostblade could have not been changed. Also, Tiamat has been significantly hit. It can be built faster but a lot of its features have been hacked and a number of top laners will be hit by this.

Thats because urgot doesnt know what he is. Is he an adc or a bruiser? His ult is a weird initiation button.

WestonbirtNov 6, 20154 votes

Urgot was designed as an "anti-carry" (which is not an actual role). As such he was given tank tools (shield, some soft and sustained CC, tank steroids) as well as mage/caster tools (long range, armor shredding).

All of this means that nothing is built for him in the game. Riot can't create items just for him so he basically has to drive a helicopter with parts from both cars and airplanes and make it work. He's a round peg in a square rift.

And BTW, don't use Hyperkinetic Position Reverser as an initiation, you gonna have a bad time. Use it :

To secure a kill against a wounded target, slowing the person down and putting them out of position.
Neutralize an enemy assassin/carry diving your ass (this is very effective against Zed, Yasuo or thirsty Rivens).
Catch out a stranded enemy after a fight or while roaming.

Urgot is not a tank, and trying to use his abilities like one will result in pain. You have to think laterally.

ahferroin7Nov 6, 20153 votes

His ult is also good for really annoying WW or Malzahar, and also makes Kat useless if you play it right.

FistOfSharkieshaNov 5, 201513 votes

Kinda unfair that mages have no MR/lvl and the lowest AR in the game but just because they buy a RoA or use scaling health runes they get punished for it. This item is absolutely stupid. The counterplay to tanks is having a well balanced team composition and not focusing the guy with 5k HP... Not to mention tanks deal no damage with the exception of Mundo who has no hard CC. The game was fine before handing out grievous wounds and tank killing items like welfare.

Voluug13Nov 6, 20153 votes

Mundo isnt even a tank, he is just very unkillable. He is basically a sustain bruiser.

FistOfSharkieshaNov 6, 20152 votes

You build him like a tank and play him like a fighter. That might be his biggest weakness and strength. All of his basic abilities involve doing massive damage with little to no utility.

Voluug13Nov 6, 20152 votes

You can build Anivia as tank, yet that doesnt mean Anivia is a tank. But yeah, I agree with eveything else. However note that Mundo scales with HP too. He is good against HP stackers on toplane, like Singed and Vlad.

FistOfSharkieshaNov 6, 20151 votes

Your comment isn't really relevant. Anivia scales with AP, she's just a mage. Dr. Mundo needs to be built tanky to survive but has huge steroids and base damage but little utility, so my comment was spot on I think. I don't know of any successful Mundo builds that don't involve building him tanky.

My Waifu VanillaNov 6, 20153 votes

Mundo is basically a Juggernaut with even less CC and damage for the compensation of the illusion of being tankier (that R gets wrecked by ignite/executioners and morello as well since you will probably be around half before and/or after you activate it since it has a stupid 20% current health cost). You can also potentially just blow him up before he hits R like you can Tahm with his E even though it is much harder to do due to tenacity in his kit on W, but it is not impossible since tank level MR is about the only tank level Stat he has since caps out at like 2200 health at 18 and starts with a measly 27 armor at level 1.

AnidanNov 6, 20152 votes

So we're just going to pretend Sejuani can't just straight fuck up an ADC when she's allowed to be (overly) strong? Because she goes in, tanks the enemy team and kills the carry by herself if she isn't peeled and there's nothing the ADC can do about it.

I do agree that it's kind of absurd, but we can't pretend that the balance between ADCs and tanks hasn't been a tenuous one. Usually tanks are either ripped up like papier-mâché, or tanks can go in and solo kill the person actually meant to kill them. It's fairly rare that there's actually balance between the two.

FistOfSharkieshaNov 6, 20155 votes

In what world does that happen? ADCs can lifesteal all the damage she deals back unless she builds straight AP and then she won't survive a second. If you're struggling vs a tank, you're focusing it when you shouldn't, or your team comp is poor (all AD) so they stacked armor to punish that bad play.

AnidanNov 6, 20152 votes

It happened when Sejuani was strong, and it happens routinely when tanks are over-buffed. Lifesteal is good and all, but Sejuani dropped an ADC pretty damn fast before her nerfs (not that she didn't receive too many nerfs - she did).

Don't pretend it's never happened or can't happen.

Sir YamazukiNov 6, 20154 votes

{quoted}

It happened when Sejuani was strong, and it happens routinely when tanks are over-buffed. Lifesteal is good and all, but Sejuani dropped an ADC pretty damn fast before her nerfs (not that she didn't receive too many nerfs - she did).

Don't pretend it's never happened or can't happen.

Or stop exaggerating, what made her good was her team fighting, not the ability to assassinate an adc, because full tanks don't do enough up front damage to do that, it's always done over time. She had low average damage for a tank that supposedly was doing tons of damage.

Hard PenetratorNov 6, 201510 votes

The more i read about s6 the less i like it.

sreggadNov 6, 20157 votes

I would rather it be max 1k health but also ramps up damage faster as it gets closer to the 1k mark. So instead of it being currently at "1.5 per 50" have it more like" 1% per 50 till 200, 1.5% per 50 from 200 till 400 and 2.5% per 50 from 400-500"

I would prefer them in increments of 100 with a max 1k with the ramping up damage. That why it has an effect while still at a lower end but it's a much weaker effect and ramps up faster as you get more health then them. till the 15% increase.

RocketRelmNov 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I would rather it be max 1k health but also ramps up damage faster as it gets closer to the 1k mark. So instead of it being currently at "1.5 per 50" have it more like" 1% per 50 till 200, 1.5% per 50 from 200 till 400 and 2.5% per 50 from 400-500"

I would prefer them in increments of 100 with a max 1k with the ramping up damage. That why it has an effect while still at a lower end but it's a much weaker effect and ramps up faster as you get more health then them. till the 15% increase.

This would be a good idea, and I'd like it that way myself, with the only issue being an added complexity cost.

sreggadNov 6, 20151 votes

a computer is computing it... as long as they program it right. "complexity" isn't really a problem. and programming wise I don't think it will be that bad assuming they make it simply be tiered so if they have 50 or more health but less than 100 it's 1% so having the difference be 99 won't be any worse than it being 50.

My Waifu VanillaNov 6, 20152 votes

Looks at new Kog'maw ult which does inc damage on intervals of CURRENT health the tech is there and is even more complex than what this would require.

ZenaniiNov 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I would rather it be max 1k health but also ramps up damage faster as it gets closer to the 1k mark. So instead of it being currently at "1.5 per 50" have it more like" 1% per 50 till 200, 1.5% per 50 from 200 till 400 and 2.5% per 50 from 400-500"

I would prefer them in increments of 100 with a max 1k with the ramping up damage. That why it has an effect while still at a lower end but it's a much weaker effect and ramps up faster as you get more health then them. till the 15% increase.

While agree with this idea, the tooltip for the item would be completely ridiculous.

eaglei3Nov 5, 20154 votes

I don't know why they couldn't have picked an HP point, say 2500 for example, and considered anything over that hp point a giant. You could still do the percentage difference for the juggernauts above 2500 that might duel each other with this item.

MelledoneusNov 5, 20153 votes

I think something like giant killer is crucial for a healthy game balance (even though it's a little too strong against tanky mages), because ADCs need a way to deal with bruisers and tanks, especially when they're the kinds that dive the back line. However, I feel that until we get the tank rework tank mains will have to twiddle their thumbs or play something else, because playing bruisers will be more viable.

Kitten of EvilNov 5, 201514 votes

The problem isn't that it weakens tanks (though that may be an issue, who knows...). The problem is that ADCs have less end-game HP than literally any other role, and they virtually never build HP, so this magnifies their damage against everyone, not just tanks. For example, let's pick a squishy support and give them Sightstone (which they all build):

Jinx: 1911 HP at level 18 Janna: 1813 HP at level 18 + 150 (Sightstone) = 1963 HP Janna has 52 more HP than Jinx, so Jinx has 1.5% extra damage against Janna.

Those numbers only go up if Janna decides to build an Aegis, upgrades her Sightstone to one of the new "Eye of the _" upgrades (which have 200 HP) or brings HP runes.

It's the same issue that Last Whisper currently has -- it's supposed to be a tank buster, but it's never a bad purchase because it will always increase your damage.

SzunrayNov 6, 20152 votes

Except when something else would increase your damage (or survivability) more.

My point is if the enemy team is all Janna type Enemies, or tankish mids that haven't built any armor, there are much much better things you could have been building with your gold.

P.S. You're right about Last whisper not being a bad enough decision half the time. One reason I appreciate the last whisper nerf.

Kitten of EvilNov 6, 20152 votes

My point is if the enemy team is all Janna type Enemies, or tankish mids that haven't built any armor

Sure, but no enemy team will be five Jannas. My point was that even in literally the WORST case scenario (a low-HP support with just a Sightstone and no other HP items), this item gives at least 1.5% increased physical damage against the entire enemy team. Against a mid with just one HP item (remember, most mages will take at least one of RoA/Rylai's/Liandry's as a core item), you're getting 5-7% increased damage. Against bruisers or tanks (anyone with 2500+ HP), you get 15% increased damage.

There is no downside to grabbing this even if just one enemy is tanky.

Currently, this is a game where "3% increased damage" is considered worthy of 21 mastery points in the offensive mastery tree!

SzunrayNov 6, 20152 votes

I'm not arguing that it's not a good item or that the passive wont always work in some way. "There is no downside to grabbing it," is a hard thing to argue against, because you're weighing its cost against nothing. Sure, it's always better to have this item as opposed to having no item.

But if you weigh it against getting Lord Dominiks regards, the other thing Last Whisper builds into, then there will definitely be downsides to getting this item. Say you're fighting Trundle. Do you want the Giant Slayer passive, or Greivous wounds. You will probably only get to build one of these two items (without gimping yourself badly).

Unlike the current last whisper, there are good and bad situations in which to pick either of these. Or rather, okay, and GREAT situations in which to pick either of these, because there will never be any downside in buying more AD as an AD carry.

PartholonianNov 6, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5iVnBzyl,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-06T05:10:52.556+0000)

There is no downside to grabbing this even if just one enemy is tanky.

Well, it's always going to be better than an empty item slot no matter who you're attacking, yeah. The important thing though is how it compares to other completed items of similar cost that you could have built instead. "I'm stronger with 3 items than with 2 items" is not a surprise or a balance problem. "I'm stronger with THESE 3 items than with THOSE 3 items" might be, if the same item is always coming out on top across a variety of champions, situations and targets.

If Dominic's base stats are adjusted appropriately so that the answer is "better against Mundo and Sion, worse against Janna and Leblanc, in between against in between builds" then it's fine. The downside is opportunity cost.

Although, actually, the Grievous Wounds option is really compelling against Mundo too, so maybe he's not the best example of someone where you really want Giant Killer to take him down.

Kitten of EvilNov 6, 20152 votes

If Dominic's base stats are adjusted appropriately so that the answer is "better against Mundo and Sion, worse against Janna and Leblanc, in between against in between builds" then it's fine. The downside is opportunity cost.

That's basically all I think the item needs in order to be fixed. I think its scaling needs to be shifted so it actually fits into its role of tank-buster, rather than generic "+5-15% damage against everyone"

Cloud PotatoNov 5, 20153 votes

While you bring up a good point, LDK will still suck damage wise compared to the Crit items against targets without lots of bonus Armor.

RocketRelmNov 5, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cloud Potato,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5iVnBzyl,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-11-05T23:14:28.402+0000)

While you bring up a good point, LDK will still suck damage wise compared to the Crit items against targets without lots of bonus Armor.

I think the major issue with that argument is that the "Giant Killer" passive and thus the balance of the item itself will have to be scaled around "this passive gives a 15% damage boost", rather than "this passive does more damage to tanks". If the item passive doesn't differentiate between the squishy mid that built a RoA and the 5k HP Sejuani, why call it "giant killer"?

OyddAWqJ5rNov 6, 20152 votes

I guess that it qualifies as smart building though. We don't even know how it fares against targets with less yet (it says up to)

My Waifu VanillaNov 6, 20152 votes

It is 1.5% damage increase per 50 max hp difference which is always going to be in affect since adcs have the lowest health and will typically not buy health outside of a phage item and even that is situational. In an example above somewhere Jinx does like 1.5% more damage to Janna with just sightstone at level 18. This only increases when we account for potential runes or Janna just buying a Locket or any item with a health Stat on it since it will probably increase Jinx's damage by a percent close enough to her survivability that is is a wasted stat. Let's use the case with jinx/Janna+SS and buy a locket on Janna which puts her at 2363 health and no armor to complicate ehp against jinx (besides the shield). This increases her ehp against Jinx by about 20% but also increases Jinx damage to Janna by 12%.

This could be further complicated by crit since it does not say whether or not the damage boost is applied before or after a crit is determined (thus potentially multiplying it by 2 or 2.5) and thus making this a bigger problem. If it IS multiplied by crit and say Jinx has 50%, if Janna were to be unable to die for the sake of infinite auto attacks to make the crit chance of 50 be a realistic 50% occurrence then the increased damage to Janna is 17% or 21% with IE. This means that if Jinx has IE and 50% crit that if Janna buys an item with 400 health (such as locket) Jinx will actually do MORE damage to Janna's effective hp (as a percent) afterwards than beforehand which is total bullshit. In a 1v1 environment she is actually straight up punished for building that item since she gains nothing besides a shield/health regen/cdr out of it at this point.

It is edge cases such as these where my problem with this item start to occur. If you really want a tank bust item you either need to increase the health gap to a much larger number or make it extremely math-y and make it based off of how much health your opponent has compared to you as a percent. If your opponent has like double your health for instance you would do X% bonus damage but if they are only 125% of your health (which is what the current 500 is close enough to) you will do significantly less than the double. With its current iteration it is a 15% damage increase that is stopped the second you hit the 500 difference. That tank with 6k health is going to take just as much bonus damage as the midlaner next to them with only 2,400 or so and THAT is a huge problem on a "tank busting" item.

OnegarionNov 6, 20153 votes

What if then they made it so it does extra damage against champs with 3k or 3.5k total health. It fits the name and it has a clear goal of being a tank buster. This would work for ADCs as item 3083 works for tanks.

Blue Moon WolfNov 6, 20151 votes

honestly I think that would be much better. This way it only punishes tanks for focusing on mostly HP instead of punishing tanks for just being tanks. It still will allow Vayne to be OP, but maybe it will be enough to get riot to nerf her % HP true damage later on.

SpoofghoulNov 6, 20153 votes

but at least you can permaban vayne if you want to play tanks

T RexHasTinyArmsNov 6, 20151 votes

Also think about it's interaction w/ assassins. ADC's are the most obvious place where this could be overtuned (maybe, maybe not), but assassins may be the most painful. If you get them low but they escape and their CD's reset they have 15% bonus burst damage when they come at you the second time in the fight. If they took a few hits from baron while the team was doing it and turn when the enemy shows up, they get 15% bonus until the enemy is dropped to their hp or lower.