Dead Man's Plate Is Crowding Out Other Armor Items

RocketRelm·Jan 29, 2016·90 votes·3,907 views

Where is the line between this and "we made all the other armor items so bad this is the only Viable choice" to use?

49 Comments

Critmaster GarenJan 29, 201610 votes

ok, some context here.

they were specifically talking about dead mans, randuins and sunfire cape as the 3 big armor/health items for juggernauts, and how dead mans is "crowding out" the other two options as the only viable choice for these champions.

the problem with this is.

a) randuins. great item. also really fucking expensive, especially when you already have to get 3500 gold together for a cleaver. while randuins is a good item, its usually less comfortable to build and further delays your powerspike.

this is going to get changed, randuins price is going down.

b) sunfire cape. useless passive. since the aura nerf to level scaling its not a good duelling item anymore. thats it. 800 gold for additional waveclear on champions like garen, darius, illaoi who already have loads of wavclear.

the passive is simply not worth the gold on those champions. making it a nieche item for ap scaling bruisers and tanks with poor or mana heavy waveclear like Malphite

c) this only leaves dead mans, which adds universally good utility.

randuins is getting a bit cheaper which makes it a good contender to dead mans again. but sunfire remains crap until they sort out what the passive is supposed to accomplish for these champions.

the buff to minion damage makes me think they settled on it as a waveclear item. so that only leaves randuins and dead mans.

realistically even with these changes, dead mans will remain the item that is bought more often, since crit damage reduction and attack speed slows are very specific stats, that become necessary later on in the game more often than earlier on. its moe of a third or 4th items for the juggs to mitigate some lategame adc damage.

if games dont last that long, then randuins will still get bought less in general. i would rush it over dead mans in specific matchups like versing a yasuo or tryndamere. but those are going to be rare.

PartholonianJan 30, 20162 votes

Well, if you're talking specifically about juggernauts, they have low mobility as a class weakness, so an item that helps them make up for that is obviously going to be extra useful. That's about as surprising as saying poke mages get Luden's a lot, and IMO, not really any more problematic.

On the other hand if everyone who wants some health and armor prefers Dead Man's, even people like Malphite Irelia Fiora Jax who aren't dependent on walking up to people to engage, then that's a problem, the alternatives are genuinely not good enough alternatives.

Sunfire should be good enough to be a clearly stronger splitpush item than Dead Man's, and Randuin's should offer better teamfight utility if your kit gives you a way to get in, by slowing everyone instead of just one person.

10TicklerJan 30, 20162 votes

Are you trying to say that Vi's engage isn't literally Walking Up, Pressing Q, then E (Proccing Deadman's) and E again? She gets AMAZING use from DMP. Especially in the Jungle, where it gives her more mobility to get to where the fight's happening and Slamdunk it.

Also, DMP procs on Irelia Q, doesn't it?

PogChampEleGigglJan 29, 20163 votes

lol, what. are you out of your mind? this must be a prank

BeuhlakorJan 29, 201636 votes

He is right.

When riot released Deadman, Sunfire and Randuins were already heavily nerfed, making Deadman the only good armor item that gives health.

coeurloyalJan 29, 201627 votes

It's not the only good armor item with health; it's the only one that can be used for general-purpose armor stacking. It's the only one that every champion would be happy to buy regardless of context. Not everybody wants damage reflection/ AoE burn/ Crit reduction, but everybody wants bonus MS with a damage buff.

ZarkkastJan 29, 20163 votes

It's the only good armor item unless you are someone like Malphite or Rammus.

TwinkieProJan 30, 201611 votes

And yet they wull still likely grab it. Move speed ins underrated yet so powerful.

Papa SlothyJan 30, 20161 votes

it's good for tanks looking for some burliness and damage like rengar or even quinn

SirHeavyScrotumJan 30, 20164 votes

Don't forget the Thornmail and Frozen Heart nerfs

TotalJerkJan 29, 20163 votes

It's not Dead Man's plate by itself. Between that, the new Black Cleaver, and Boots of Swiftness all of the supposedly "immobile" juggernauts have become fucking racecars. I actually used to buy it on Gangplank for a bit because between that, his passive, his W, and triforce, GP is insanely hard to pin down.

SirHeavyScrotumJan 30, 20162 votes

No no no, you buy DMP on Gangplank for lore reasons or not at all.

RogueWillJan 30, 20163 votes

Meanwhile people forget how OP this item actually is item 3110 sitting at 130% gold efficiency (higher than deadman plate) and providing almost twice as much armor while getting some mana and a ton of CDR... + item 1011 > item 1031 + item 3742

macromiteJan 30, 201618 votes

the reason why people don't get it is because its tank stats are worse. sure it gives more armor, but health is a better stat.

The LovelessJan 30, 20162 votes

You're both right. I personally buy DMP as a 4th or 5th item on my tanks. I'm loving sunfire, iceborn and thornmail at the moment.

Sozan5Jan 30, 20162 votes

Uh, Frozen Heart is 105% gold efficient by stats alone (and it's hard to say the exact value of the aura) and most imporantly - a lot of stats is used on non-combat stat (so to speak, unless you have mana scalings).

Also, FH + Giants Belt is 200 Gold more expensive and gives less defensive stats than DMP + Chain Vest: FH+GB = 380 Health, 90 Armor DMG+CV = 500 Health, 90 Armor

I would say that unless you are against a heavy autoattacker (Trynda, Trundle, Udyr, Yi) then Dead Man's Plate is just better.

MKDkillaJan 30, 20163 votes

It just kept on getting chipped away at to the point of being generally unattractive. It lost armor and a bit of AS% slow as well. Hell, even item 3025 is now a more feasible choice, 96.3% gold efficient WITHOUT passive. And that passive in a meta where CC matters a lot more is way more useful than an AS slow. Addition of Zeal items also hurt FH and Randuins, since stacking AS is a lot more common now. I mean, both items were also effective against BotRK which is now shit.

forrestoJan 30, 20162 votes

while I agree with most of what you said, I'm not sure that i agree with your point about attack speed stacking hurting frozen heart. the way i see it, frozen heart effectively reduces the efficiency of every attack speed item by 25% not counting passives and such. that would mean that the more they stack attack speed the more they stack the efficiency loss.

forrestoJan 30, 20161 votes

honestly its very dependent on the team comps. if they have a fed adc or auto based champ, then frozen heart becomes better. otherwise, if you just need to be tanky then deadmans is much better since it has decent armor, and decent health. Plus anyone can benefit from movespeed/an extra slow. additionally, if you're a juggernaut, or at least a tank without a gap closer/mobility ability, you really prefer dead mans because of the bonus move speed which helps you get to where you're needed in a fight.

Silents429Jan 30, 20163 votes

Did we not literally have another post with the same exact title a few days ago?

The LovelessJan 30, 20169 votes

We literally did. But it's free upvotes to complain about this subject so why not?

CasterGilgameshJan 30, 20162 votes

deadmans plate isnt crowding out other picks its just that the other items got nerfs the patch it came out of lol

clickheadJan 30, 20162 votes

I agree that sunfire cape is in a rough spot, but Randuin's is still a great item to build in many situations.

UrPalAlJan 30, 20162 votes

Pretty sure they already stated they would be needing deadmans and buffing all the other options.

Lil Killa AmanJan 30, 20161 votes

yeah bro

Yosuke ApperuJan 29, 20161 votes

Deadman's plate without passives equal to 2333 gold COST: 2800 Sunfire cape without passive equal to 2333 gold COST: 2700 Randuin's omen without passive/active equal to 2397 gold COST: 3000.. They're honestly very close to eachother if you're using your mind and don't just listen to what you hear. Do you want to get around the map faster and hit one target harder with a slow tagged on? Then this one is for you item 3742 If you need more clearing/consistent damage on your opponent? Then try this one out item 3068 If you need more slows/they have tons of crit? You want item 3143 See ya on the rift! :)

Critmaster GarenJan 29, 20163 votes

in context of the juggernauts. which this whole discussion was about.

{quoted} Do you want to get around the map faster and hit one target harder with a slow tagged on? Then this one is for you

this passive is useful for them. be it to roam, or to follow up engages of your team.

{quoted} If you need more clearing/consistent damage on your opponent?

no. they dont need it. and without magic pen, the aura barely cancels out natural health regen after mr.

{quoted} If you need more slows/they have tons of crit? You want

usually not until later on in the game.

and as you pointed out, randuins right now is a lot more expensive than the other two. against most matchups the attack speed slow and crit reduction doesnt help you.

you dont need this over dead mans when fighting renekton.

Yosuke ApperuJan 29, 20161 votes

Title of the thread: "Dead Man's Plate Is Crowding Out Other Armor Items" The text of the post "Where is the line between this and "we made all the other armor items so bad this is the only Viable choice" to use?" No where from that text are you able to imply that it was talking about juggernauts. Randuin's Is more expensive yes, but a 4 second aoe slow is rather strong. Um... sunfire cape at level 18 deals 43 damage per second.. If they have 100 mr(meaning they built mr) its down to 21.5 damage per second due to a 50% damage reduction. Which means that you need 105 hp per 5 Heimerdinger has the highest hp per 5 at 40.8.. In second place is 26.0 hp5 Sunfire is still dealing almost 4 times that natural regen and after the assumed 100 mr. Squishies still melt as you run into their face dealing closer to 170ish damage per 5. They're all situational to build as I've said previously.

Critmaster GarenJan 29, 20162 votes

{quoted} No where from that text are you able to imply that it was talking about juggernauts.

the quote in the title was taken from the juggernaut itemization follow up discussion.

there are more factors involved with lategame sunfire. lifesteal, scaling mr runes, mr items for every class dimishes the damage dealt by the passive largely by lategame. ad bruisers and juggs dont bring magic pen into the game, so it really falls off for them as a damage item.

yes it, still deals a bit of damage. the question is, will you deal more damage when you invest the 800 gold youre paying for this passive into something else? like for example getting into range faster after your tank initiated a fight.

sunfire capes passive was never valued for lategame. it used to be a good duelling item for ad bruisers when you could rush it and gained 40 magic damage per second before you hit 6. since the damage nerf, its not good enough for duelling anymore, and those champions arent interested in getting it for waveclear.

Yosuke ApperuJan 29, 20161 votes

To each their own I suppose :) I enjoy building it, so I guess I'll continue to do so. By the way.. 40 magic damage per second before 6? You realize that's broken on a stupid level right? lol Just so we're clear.

Critmaster GarenJan 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

To each their own I suppose :) I enjoy building it, so I guess I'll continue to do so. By the way.. 40 magic damage per second before 6? You realize that's broken on a stupid level right? lol Just so we're clear.

it was what sunfire did before the aura nerf. and it was slightly op, but not as broken as you think. a item 1033 and some health usually were enough to deal with it.

riot nerfed the aura damage to 30 flat once and that was already enough for it to fall out of favour, then they buffed it back to 40, then down to the level scaling.

Yosuke ApperuJan 29, 20161 votes

As I said, it's still situation, and I'll take it on champs like shen, sejuani, shyvana, (mundo if i ever play him), garen, and even Jarvan. You said it cancels out natural healing, well thats fine because that in turn should cause all of your other abilities to hit harder since your opponent has effectively lost their hp/5 + it still deals a little more damage than that to them, no? Also this isn't to be taken into ranked.. but tanky annie (something like roa, sunfire, abyssal,) Just being there in a teamfight with tibbers right next to you being tanky because of almost constant molten shield (be sure to toss in cdr somewhere) . You gotta do what you gotta do when aram gives you zero tanks. XD

Fat Bastard GODJan 29, 20161 votes

They are going to make the passive on Sunfire cape deal double damage to minions/monsters. This should be a very interesting change. Clear the jungle like cheese and proxy waves hard?

Critmaster GarenJan 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fat Bastard GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BQVQEqEe,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-29T21:49:57.503+0000)

They are going to make the passive on Sunfire cape deal double damage to minions/monsters. This should be a very interesting change. Clear the jungle like cheese and proxy waves hard?

oh god. Singed

though that mainly only used to work because of the old gold mechanics, where killing him at some point didnt give you more gold than a minion.

Big LincolnJan 29, 20162 votes

isn't it 150% damage, not double?

LankPantsJan 30, 20162 votes

Clear the jungle like cheese

There's an item that will make this not happen, Cinderhulk's effect is unique from Sunfire's.

Great OzymandiusJan 30, 20161 votes

I often don't buy jungle items on jungle malphite (other than the starting item for mana regen). It's better to get IBG and sunfire. Cinderhulk isn't that strong since it got nerfed awhile back and Malphite scales so well with armor that I don't want early items without armor and I don't make much use of the %max health passive until later game.

KillerKellJan 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

There's an item that will make this not happen, Cinderhulk's effect is unique from Sunfire's.

Which leads to something very interesting... a case where you take Sunfire Cape as a Defensive Item, and take Warrior or Sated as your Jungle Item.

This blend would be very interesting on a select few Champions. Most take Cinderhulk to quickly complete the Jungle Item... but you can rush Bami and then complete the Jungle Item, finishing Sunfire next. On Sated, this of course would put you behind a bit (already an issue) so better to apply with Warrior.

LankPantsJan 31, 20161 votes

This blend would be very interesting on a select few Champions. Most take Cinderhulk to quickly complete the Jungle Item... but you can rush Bami and then complete the Jungle Item, finishing Sunfire next. On Sated, this of course would put you behind a bit (already an issue) so better to apply with Warrior.

The only champs who I can think of who'd want both Sunfire and Warrior are Rek'sai and J4. It's an option for them though. Noct and Shyvana might also take Devourer into Sunfire.

I think a more interesting path is Runic Echoes into Sunfire. It might be good on champs like Amumu and Zac and probably will be good on Elise.

Overall I feel like Cinder's still going to be a better item in most cases for most of these champs though.

KillerKellJan 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The only champs who I can think of who'd want both Sunfire and Warrior are Rek'sai and J4. It's an option for them though. Noct and Shyvana might also take Devourer into Sunfire.

I think a more interesting path is Runic Echoes into Sunfire. It might be good on champs like Amumu and Zac and probably will be good on Elise.

Overall I feel like Cinder's still going to be a better item in most cases for most of these champs though.

Which means we do have that option, at least on some. Rek'sai and Jarvan, Nocturn and Shyvana... and you bring up Runic (I was leaving out AP, but AP Tanks do use Sunfire so good catch) so Amumu and Zac, with a possibility on Elise.

Which is what I love... the fact that there ARE choices, we may just have to look a bit deeper to figure them out.

They may not always be META, but then again things META now weren't META before... META changes.

So taking Cinder-Jungles and transferring instead to Sunfire for the benefits of Sated/Warrior/Echo may well be a better path, IF you are willing to take longer finishing the Jungle Item to rush the Bami you'll need, then make Sunfire your #2 (effectively slowing both being finished).

Sightless66Jan 29, 20161 votes

The plan on the PBE is to increase Dead Man's Plate's cost by 100 and nerf the slow on the empowered autoattack to 50%, then buff Randuin's on stats and gold cost (50 health and -100 cost) and give Sunfire and Bami's Cinder increased damage to minions. That looks pretty fair to me.

La BarbotteJan 30, 20161 votes

item 3157 this is the best armor item by far, it counters champions even when you dont need the stats on it (looking at you rengar/zed)

KillerKellJan 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

this is the best armor item by far, it counters champions even when you dont need the stats on it (looking at you rengar/zed)

Give me Stasis on a freaking Armor/HP Item!

AlienPrimateJan 30, 20161 votes

I personally get item 3110 almost every game and frequently use item 3068 but almost never use item 3742 . Deadman's plate is the best armor item if the champ getting it doesn't have a strong engage. My mains are Nautilus Galio Taric Alistar and Shen who all make great use of and except for shen with fh.

EmollientNut0Jan 30, 20161 votes

A lot of the other armor items are ancient, and feel super outdated in comparison. I'm pretty sure item 3068 was around for the Great Depression.

Zilean

DarkRitualJan 30, 20161 votes

When it's often picked up by carries as their one armor item of choice in addition to being a core item for tanks and bruisers and juggernauts, it's clear that it gives a number of things that are more desirable than other options.

LordOfTheLeagueJan 30, 20161 votes

You are just thinking too much. Buy fighters with some pure tanking items on your tanks and stomp everything. Full tank champs are just some special case now.

arc95Jan 30, 20161 votes

I wouldn't say Dead mans is crowding out the other armor items...that makes it sound like dead mans is too strong...and the other items are well balanced...

what you said in the description is better...Its the fact dead mans is the only half way decent armor item that isn't super niche... item 3068 is the only other one that's generally ok imo, its not that great but nothing is wasted its hp armor and some AoE damage...unlike item 3143 were if your enemy doesnt have high crit it starts to become a wasted item

but riot isn't gonna improve armor because they want "quick" flashy game play

SairentosutokaJan 30, 20161 votes

I hate deadman's i already hated the fact that hecarim was an assassin with 2 items. now he just gets a third deadmans and no adc can survive that shit without expending flash heal and their own escape spell. fucking retarded.