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is kleptomancy supposed to fuck over melee champions?

Critmaster Garen··76 votes·8,864 views

i dont understand why the gold and item gain isnt cut in half for ranged champions.

i mean is it really just made for champions who constantly harass you with ranged poke in lane, to outscale you fast and hard enough that you dont ever get into the position to defend against it?

what was the thought process here to giving ranged champions full access to the item and gold gains?

i thought these runes and especially the inspiration tree was supposed to be something everybody can pick up and not just for ezreal to earn an extra 1000 gold in 20 minutes.

80 Comments

lojician50 votes

Is (thing in LoL) supposed to fuck over melee champions?

Yes.

Trollmanship9 votes

{quoted}

Is (thing in LoL) supposed to fuck over melee champions?

Yes.

Quoted for truth

Ben Sharpio23 votes

hmmm.. well, here at riot games we didnt think of this happening. so thank you for bringing it up we'll fix it soon !

Velzard of Koz1 votes

PBE Update 1: Gains halved for ranged champs.

PBE Update 2: Reverted with no context.

koshkyra1 votes

are you referencing item 3153 or am i just jumping at shadows here

Even13 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0aqECCQVfM

Sums it up pretty well. XD

SirΤeemο1 votes

Gangplank or Yasuo OR Pantheon feel better because their Q counts as an auto attack BUT also as an ability in the same time ;p , so only Q gets you the stuff ;p and easier because of low CD

Stand in my X8 votes

Pantheon

uhhh...?

Ęsdeath1 votes

Although it is not an AA, it is still a joke the fact that he can simply AA so easily and get away with it. A W is all it takes to apply a massive amount of damage (if he decides to land his other abilities) and his AA will get him a free consumable (+gold) in exchange.

PBnJelly7 votes

Just because Ezreal (who is known to abuse random things all the time) abuses the keystone doesn't mean it's a problem.

Of course masteries are gonna be better on some champs than others, there's nothing wrong with that.

This is also funny because one of the two primary abusers of this keystone atm is melee (GP).

Critmaster Garen15 votes

{quoted}

Just because Ezreal (who is known to abuse random things all the time) abuses the keystone doesn't mean it's a problem.

Of course masteries are gonna be better on some champs than others, there's nothing wrong with that.

This is also funny because one of the two primary abusers of this keystone atm is melee (GP).

its not just ezreal. you could take jayce or even fucking gnar and theyd both get more out of the rune than any melee champion due to their constant ability/auto attack poke.

its just generally that ranged champions can abuse these mechanics a lot easier than melee champions. why do you think they needed to half the effect on grasp for ranged champions and reduce the health stacks to 2 from 5 for them?

same for freezeray.

Morgan le Fey3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=am1sXcWE,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-11-11T23:37:53.203+0000)

its not just ezreal. you could take jayce or even fucking gnar and theyd both get more out of the rune than any melee champion due to their constant ability/auto attack poke.

its just generally that ranged champions can abuse these mechanics a lot easier than melee champions. why do you think they needed to half the effect on grasp for ranged champions and reduce the health stacks to 2 from 5 for them?

same for freezeray.

On the flip side, supports like Thresh and Rakan get very little use from Grasp, even though they could really use the extra HP + sustain in a world where most non-squish champs are much more durable than they are - ranged and melee alike. Is Riot deliberately trying to screw them over by making it pretty unusable for them?

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

On the flip side, supports like Thresh and Rakan get very little use from Grasp, even though they could really use the extra HP + sustain in a world where most non-squish champs are much more durable than they are - ranged and melee alike. Is Riot deliberately trying to screw them over by making it pretty unusable for them?

they dont need grasp. they have literally 2 other options in that tree that synergise better with their kits than grasp.

even if grasp would grant them the full health value, theyd still rarely ever get the proc, since you have to be in combat for 4 seconds for the keystone to arm itself. this means with their standart poke they wont stay in combat long enough to get the proc.

rakan can make use of guardian extremely well and apply a shield with his dash to allies. he can take aftershock to support his q initiates.

thresh has higher than usual base armor and synergizes extremely well with the 20 + 30% resistance increase on aftershock on his hook initiates. or he can take guardian aswell and apply a shield to allies that grab his lantern to his side.

both can easily use kleptomancy though.

Morgan le Fey4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=am1sXcWE,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-12T02:23:47.396+0000)

they dont need grasp. they have literally 2 other options in that tree that synergise better with their kits than grasp.

even if grasp would grant them the full health value, theyd still rarely ever get the proc, since you have to be in combat for 4 seconds for the keystone to arm itself. this means with their standart poke they wont stay in combat long enough to get the proc.

rakan can make use of guardian extremely well and apply a shield with his dash to allies. he can take aftershock to support his q initiates.

thresh has higher than usual base armor and synergizes extremely well with the 20 + 30% resistance increase on aftershock on his hook initiates. or he can take guardian aswell and apply a shield to allies that grab his lantern to his side.

both can easily use kleptomancy though.

I agree. I could also make the exact same argument about melee champions and Kleptomancy just by changing the names around. That is my point.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

I agree. I could also make the exact same argument about melee champions and Kleptomancy just by changing the names around. That is my point.

even in that situation. why do ranged champions need a keystone to destroy melee champions by gaining sustain and extra gold off their poke?

if they cut it in half for ranged and allow melee and ranged champions to get about the same worth out of the thing, it would be fine. but right now its kindof ridiculous.

Morgan le Fey5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=am1sXcWE,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-12T02:46:49.228+0000)

even in that situation. why do ranged champions need a keystone to destroy melee champions by gaining sustain and extra gold off their poke?

if they cut it in half for ranged and allow melee and ranged champions to get about the same worth out of the thing, it would be fine. but right now its kindof ridiculous.

Why do melee champions need a keystone to destroy squishies by gaining sustain and permanent stats off of their engage?

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Why do melee champions need a keystone to destroy squishies by gaining sustain and permanent stats off of their engage?

which one? because if youre talking about grasp, its only useful in melee vs. melee matchups where you can frequently trade to stack it.

it has the same issues as kleptomancy, where you wont be able to stack it against ranged matchups because you rarely have the opportunity to get into range to get an auto attack on them.

this is part of the reason why i hate the gimmicky stack mechanic on grasp. not to mention its just as available for ranged champions. the health gain is just cut down for them to avoid the same issue that kleptomancy has, and ranged champions dont end up with 400 to 500 health at 20 minutes off their constant poke, while melee champions scrap together 30 to 50 health in the few opportunities they get to trade.

VexingRaven1 votes

{quoted}

Thresh isn't durable

lol?

Morgan le Fey1 votes

{quoted}

lol?

Re-read it. Most non-squish champions are more durable than them in the support role atm, because most support tanks have a lot of built-in tank that Thresh, specifically, doesn't have until mid-late game due to the way his Souls work.

UnboundHades1 votes

rakan isnt meant to be built tank and if you need the hp to survive you are playing him wrong

Morgan le Fey1 votes

{quoted}

rakan isnt meant to be built tank and if you need the hp to survive you are playing him wrong

Build tank? No. He does take tank rune most of the time atm, though. I can see the argument for Aerie as a keystone, but not really any others outside of Resolve. Even Klepto requires him to get too close, and he's weak enough in lane as it is that getting close without getting HP out of it isn't really smart.

PBnJelly2 votes

Just because ranged champs can use it better doesn't mean its some big deal. When you take klepto, you're trading a lot of bullying power from another keystone for scaling power, which is based on RNG. Laning vs ranged as melee is awful, but if anything, it will be less oppressive with klepto because they're gonna do significantly less damage for the majority of the lane.

Also, you do realize that klepto requires a spell to proc it right? If you're someone like a Jayce and just spamming spells to proc your klepto you're gonna go oom very quickly.

Ez makes klepto work so well because he has:

  1. low-cost, long-ranged procs
  2. a unique item curve that makes his first few backs awful (building tear)

And with klepto he can skip right over that weak phase because it's so easy for him to proc it constantly. There isn't a single champ in the game who can use it as well as him.

AlienPrimate1 votes

I get plenty of use out of it with Taric. It is by far my favorite keystone on him because its synergy with Taric's passive.0

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

You could take that on Jayce or Gnar and do no damage if you want to. Jayce relies on snowballing top lane by killing his lane and 1v2'ing the jungler at some point because he IS going to get camped because (surprise surprise) ranged tops SHOULD get camped since they usually have very little to escape with AND auto push the waves. Kleptomancy requires the game to end early because your keystone does NOTHING outside of laning phase. If Gnar takes Klepto that means he is going to be pretty squishy and actively going for harass which means he is much easier to punish by any sort of jungler or fighter top laner. Now you can complain about Gnar top as a tank and say "but I can't punish him" thats because his champ inherently shits on yours and he could have taken Predator and still beaten you in lane.

NGNL Asian7 votes

It's not broken at all, just treat it like a average ranged lane. Kreptomancy allows them to get items yes but it's at a random rate. And items at random, and u have to play more aggressive to abuse it and it significanly reduces your ability to output more damage like dark harvest, lethal, mark, electrocute, predator, grasp, etc

SpiritOfOdysseus2 votes

You just... said.. what

Treat it like an average ranged lane

Ok if we're talking about top here than its typically range onto melee. The ranged tries to bully the melee(who now have equal resistances and less damage than ranged, yay!) out of getting cs. The ranged also has klepto, so not only will they be able to farm up well but they also get cheese everytime they bully you! In other words "Thank you for picking a lane bully and stomping on this antique melee champion who is supposed to be better than you early-mid game."

Sp33d Zer01 votes

They also sacrifice a reliable/damage keystone for it.

Bronze 6 Yasuo4 votes

Teemo HUEHHUEHUEHAHAHA

JPLangley4 votes

[deleted]

Critmaster Garen7 votes

{quoted}

It's just that melee champions with that can utilize spellblade aren't poised to spam the fuck out of it.

its also a matter of being able to apply the proc in the first place.

ranged champions have more opportunities to auto attack their opponents without repercussions.

melee champions like yorick in your example have to chose more carefully when to walk up to their opponent. in melee vs. ranged matchups this becomes even more complicated and the windows for melee champions to auto attack their ranged opponents are incredibly rare, while ranged champions will be able to get a lot of auto attacks in on them.

i promise you that a ranged champion with kleptomancy vs. a melee champion with same same keystone will earn a lot more gold from it.

lets say yorick and gnar are laning against each other both running the keystone. who do you think will come out on top in terms of value of the extra gold and items?

this is the reason why all these mechanics with short base cooldowns should be noticably stronger on melee champions than ranged champions. the bandit mastery worked exactly the same way. slows like frozen mallet and hextech freezeray work like that. grasp works like it too.

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

I wouldn't blame them for wanting to see if it's truly optimal on champs like GP and Ezreal before doing that, but it's now clear that it is. Ezreal is powerful because of Kleptomancy, so I think we'll probably see changes to it.

Sewer Side3 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't blame them for wanting to see if it's truly optimal on champs like GP and Ezreal before doing that, but it's now clear that it is. Ezreal is powerful because of Kleptomancy, so I think we'll probably see changes to it.

Ezreal is powerful, full stop.

If you nerf Klepto just because he uses it well, he will just move to Electrocute or PtA and now you have a gimped keystone.

Nerf Ezreal, not everything around him. It doesn't work.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Maybe. But I think ranged champions getting more out of Kleptomancy than melee is probably a problem even if Ezreal was deleted. Realistically, they could give melee/ranged changes to the keystone and give ezreal a few nerfs. It's not like it's one or the other. They just have to be careful with how they go about it.

Klepto isn't just a problem on Ezreal, either. GP, like I already mentioned, also abuses it.

Sewer Side1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe. But I think ranged champions getting more out of Kleptomancy than melee is probably a problem even if Ezreal was deleted. Realistically, they could give melee/ranged changes to the keystone and give ezreal a few nerfs. It's not like it's one or the other. They just have to be careful with how they go about it.

Klepto isn't just a problem on Ezreal, either. GP, like I already mentioned, also abuses it.

The problem I have is Klepto is balanced for when picked by supports. Cast a spell and get gold encourages trading. It's not inherently broken on most ranged. I've seen Critmaster Garen make the arguement it can be a problem on some ranged tops vs melee, but that's a balance problem that exists beyond this keystone.

So if you nerf it for ranged, you hurt everyone when two champions use more than it's intended purpose, and both Ezreal and GP have other keystones to go for while we broke a (perfectly) fine Keystone.

Balance Ezreal. He's always broken any new toy we get and clearly nerfing the item/mastery isn't working.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

I definitely wouldn't say GP has any more keystones to go for really. He is pretty much only left with Klepto since the only other "okay" options are Fleet Footwork and Grasp which have huge opportunity costs in garbage stats given to you for primary-ing down precision and resolve (attack speed and bonus health on a carry that doesn't auto attack woo hoo).

Dark Nephthys3 votes

I think the rune is fine and it is a lot of fun to use, but at the same time I can see all the problems with it (especially the video a person linked in this thread) when used in top lane. Personally, I feel there shouldn't be any restrictions of Melee/Ranged on it but just make it mostly for supports, maybe some thing like spelltheif's effect of "If you kill a minion, then Klepto goes on CD for 5 seconds" or something like that.

Because as the rune is for supports, it's pretty fair for them. Yes Ranged supports would have a better chance at activating it but honestly most Melee supports would of wanted a way better rune anyways.

And another side note: Another Season that Ezreal abusing something until it gets nerfed or gutted again. He alone as killed or changed so many items in the past like 3 years..

SpiritOfOdysseus1 votes

Solution: Delete that walking(blinking) mistake of a champion

Provengreil1 votes

just redo his Q. it's toxic to item design. How many items has he broken now entirely on that ability?

Naqel3 votes

Melee's should get double, but otherwise the rune is doing exactly what it should: securing a gold lead at the expense of a unique effect.

What's actually interesting about it is that it completely changes the playstyle: you have to poke aggressively (every 2 seconds for optimum effect) to get the full benefit, which in turn stimulates a much more dynamic PvP interaction. Not all players can adjust to this kind of play pattern, which might be the real reason Kleptomancy is so good: it emboldens the user to take advantage of their champion's innately safe poking in a way nothing else does.

NTrumpWeTrust2 votes

It was clearly supposed to be a support option having it work on GP and Ezreal to the extent that it is shouldn't be in the game. It's really abusive and non interactive

Critmaster Garen6 votes

{quoted}

It was clearly supposed to be a support option having it work on GP and Ezreal to the extent that it is. It's really abusive and non interactive

nah. the way they showcased this in the past, they clearly knew it wasnt just going to get picked up on supports. they wanted to make it available to any champion.

even if it WAS designed for supports. its exactly the same gold generation effect that bandit used to have. that mastery didnt have the same design flaw, and granted 10 gold for melee champions and 5 gold for ranged champions.

i dont think this was an oversight either. they remembered to reduce the effectiveness for ranged champions on other runes aswell. someone did this on purpose.

NTrumpWeTrust1 votes

the gold part isn't the problem

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

the gold part isn't the problem

the gold and the item generation parts are both problems.

ranged champions will be able to trigger the rune twice as frequently as melee champions at the least and get more out of both parts.

by the time a melee champion has stacked 300 gold on the keystone, his ranged opponent already has 600 to 800 gold on that thing.

NTrumpWeTrust2 votes

Again, Klepto wasn't designed for melee. A very few champions are actually making efficient use out of klepto, GP and Ez. Supports aren't even taking it, they're all taking aery lol

Critmaster Garen6 votes

{quoted}

Again, Klepto wasn't designed for melee.

it is designed and available to everyone.

just like bandit was.

NTrumpWeTrust2 votes

Wrong.

Critmaster Garen7 votes

{quoted}

Wrong.

lmao, ok buddy. its literally bandit turned into a keystone rune. and bandit was used by melee and ranged champions.

they advertised the rune with melee and ranged champions in their sample games. but i guess its pointless to argue about it with you.

Atanchan1 votes

I'm pretty sure it was designed for champion who easily proc Spellblade effects on champions, hence the fact that it's a Spellblade-esque effect that only procs on champions.

Which would mean it's designed mostly for ranged champions, but melee champions that can trade easily or have a faux-ranged attack like Gangplank also get to benefit from it.

Y'know, just like how Electrocute is designed mostly for ranged champions that can toss an ability or two in between autoattacks, but also works for melee champions that have enough attack speed or a multi-part burst combo to also proc it easily.

Or just like how Press the Attack is designed mostly for ranged champions for them to get extra damage while kiting or chasing someone down, but also works for melee champions that have enough sticking power to keep wailing on someone while they try to run away.

Like ... ranged champions are basically the default to design around due to the lack of disadvantages they have. Melee champions sometimes get extra benefits ( it's really not the way around ) so that they can have tools that full power without also giving access to those tools to ranged champion at full power, but that's ... not really necessary on everything, especially on something already pretty niche.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

And ranged champions can proc Press the Attack twice as often as well half the time or stay in range to benefit from Lethal Tempo's attack speed. Hell they can proc Summon Aery more often as well since they most likely have ranged spells. Every rune doesn't need to "appeal to melee" as you are currently suggesting.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=am1sXcWE,comment-id=00050000000000000001,timestamp=2017-11-13T06:26:29.453+0000)

Every rune doesn't need to "appeal to melee" as you are currently suggesting.

actually they do. at least in the cases you mentioned, to create an even playing field. otherwise, it just makes ranged champions way too strong compared to melee.

like ranged carries are dumb right now compared to melee carries because of press the attack.

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