@meddler: when looking at keystones, please dont forget to address grasp in one of your next updates

Critmaster Garen··4 votes·425 views

even if the keystone isnt overperforming or underperforming, it has a bunch of gameplay related issues mostly thanks to the health stack mechanic.

  • health stacking on grasp makes you feel pressured to use it as much as possible in lane

  • the rampup timer of the buff is pretty long with 4 seconds, so it often only activates after a trade with your opponent which leads to situation where it makes you want to overextend in trades just to get the proc for the health stack.

  • with the above issue in mind, preparing grasp before a trade happens is incredibly difficult due to how the rampup timer works. it incentivises you to constantly auto attack minions and push lane, just to be considered in combat long enough for the counter not to completley cancel, and grasp to activate.

  • the effectiveness of the health stack mechanic heavily varies depending on the enemy matchup. it can be anything between 150 to 200 health at 20 minutes, and no health at all in lanes where trades in melee range are either not very frequent (mostly melee champions with grasp vs. ranged champions, or melee champions who cant afford to trade with an overwhelmingly strong opponent).

  • with the above issue in mind, the health stack mechanic seems to be most effective in situiations where the matchup is already easy, and youre frequently able to trade with your opponent from the start. in matchups where the extra health would be really needed, it is often not possible to get a lot of extra health stacks on the keystone.

im going to say the same thing i already said a couple of times. i hate the health stack mechanic on grasp. above all it is frustrating to work with, due to how much it pressures you into using the keystone as often as possible to make it scale properly.

personally id greatly appreciate if it was replaced by either a flat 4% max health increase, or a level scaling health bonus.

in both cases it would make the amount of bonus health on the keystone less dependent on the matchup youre facing and either more on your itemization or passively on your champion level.

another possibility would be to improve the healing component on grasp itself. changing it from 2% max health to 5% missing health for example.

3 Comments

waiting for WoW1 votes

You realize that even without the health stacking, Grasp is still a buffed version of its former self right? Grasp has not changed at all from old runes in it's mechanics so I'm not sure why you think it should suddenly change. If it added more than 100-150 HP per game(which is what I see people stack on average) it would be a completely busted keystone(and in my opinion it's already too strong).

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=waiting for WoW,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=abtR0OMw,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-11-18T12:47:37.901+0000)

You realize that even without the health stacking, Grasp is still a buffed version of its former self right? Grasp has not changed at all from old runes in it's mechanics so I'm not sure why you think it should suddenly change. If it added more than 100-150 HP per game(which is what I see people stack on average) it would be a completely busted keystone(and in my opinion it's already too strong).

it already does add far more than 100 to 150 health in some matchups, and it adds nothing in others.

if youre playing a melee champion into someone like shen who is tanky enough to constantly trade with you very early on, youre going to stack 200 health at 20 minutes without issue. from there youll be able to stack some more over the course of the rest of the game.

a 4% max health increase would mean 160 bonus health on a full 4000 health build which even most bruisers and tanks only hit lategame. i think thats a fair compromise to making it more reliable and would keep in the 100 to 150 health range you mentioned.

right now in the matchups where it does add a lot of health are the cases where you need it the least, since it means you can already frequently trade with your opponent. and the matchups where it adds the least amount of health are where you would need it the most.

a flat % health increase would support defensive builds, when youre in need of building defense. if youre in a diffucult matchup and cant frequently trade with your opponent, youre more prone to stacking health. this means youd get some bonus health off the keystone when you feel the need to heavily itemize into health and defenses early on.

and most importantly it doesnt make you feel like youre losing out by not constantly fighting your opponent just for the sake of triggering the keystone.

read through the points ive made please. the health stack mechanic creates some pretty shitty gameplay patterns. it makes you feel pressured to use the keystone as much as possible to make it scale, and in doing so it pressures you into some pretty dumb choices.

Tortunga1 votes

You forgot to mention that junglers cannot really stack it until grouping up starts, as epic monsters doesn't give stacks and during ganks you often fight for less then 4 seconds.

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