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Brainstorming for Veigar possible changes

Sasogwa··6 votes·909 views

Intro : Several topics have already underlined how Veigar was fine balancing-wise, but not fine gameplay-wise aka he has enough CC and damage to be viable, but his skillset being delayed in his core spells (W, E) makes him extremely unrewarding, depending on his opponents doing mistakes or teammates being there to setup Veigar. Basically he has very little play/carry by himself potential.

I'm creating this topic here to assemble all the ideas I've seen/ thought of and see your suggestions. If you were in the balance team, what would you do to Veigar?

List of the ideas I've seen/thought of :

  • Full revert Not really feasible, it's basically saying screw Riot, let's go back to before and ignore the complaints about counterplay
  • Q revert -Q cooldown change From 7/6.5/6/5.5/5 to 8/7/6/5/4 (basically the Nasus Q cooldown and also the pre-changes Veigar Q cooldown)
  • E revert
  • Faster W Cast time 0.5s -> 0.25s Delay 1.25 -> 1s? 0.75s?
  • Faster E Total delay 0.75s -> 0.5s (description doesn't say it but 0.25s cast time is included in the warnings making it overall a 0.75s and not 0.5s delay)
  • ** Special interactions with spells inside cage** If Q goes through cage and hits an enemy inside, he is stunned for X seconds W has a bigger radius inside cage (and possibly slows for a little amount -25%?-)
  • ** E is a black hole ** E now drags in targets towards the center of the event horizon Possible balancing : Attraction strength depends on Veigar's ability power (to limit Veigar support) ; possible removal of the edge of the cage
  • **R is a black hole ** Basically, this is kinda harsh because we completely scrap the fact Veigar was the archetype of the burst mage and completely rework him into a control mage. R is now an Anivia's-R-sized? black hole lasting for x seconds, dragging ennemies in, attraction strength depending on Veigar's ability power (to limit the effectiveness of supp veig), dealing damage/second (+ratio). It also deviates skillshots due to its attraction [amount of attraction for skillshots is, let's say, doubled because missile speed are usually significantly higher than champion's movespeeds]. Option : Once the black hole ends, it explodes dealing X damage (+ratio, + possible ratio on opponent's AP?) This R rework would however significantly help with Veigar stunning and placing W, while keeping a very fair amount of counterplay and ult would have a big cooldown anyway.
  • E's delay depends on Veigar's AP Delay 0-250AP : 0.75s 250-500AP : 0.5s 500+ AP : 0.25s Since the most problematic pick in competitive was Veigar support, due to his E, this would only change Veigar mid and he needs to get a bunch of AP before his stun becomes so dangerous. It also gives time to Veigar's opponents to have a choice with their itemisation (if they wanna go item 3111 /item 3140 /item 3102 )
  • W's delay depends on Veigar's AP Same idea but for his W. -** No changes at all **- Which is a bit sad. And I want to say that if no champions needed changes, there wouldn't be any balance changes patches. And that a small change does not mean the end of the world and turning a champion into insta-OP or insta-garbage. But that's your choice.

And..that's it for my suggestions.

Note: The changes can include several of these, or only one. If you have any other ideas to submit, don't hesitate, I created this topic for that purpose ! ALSO, we're not forced to do a straight buff to Veigar. If we give him more power, we can retreat some other power - like damage, or stun duration/cage duration - from him to "compensate". (ok I'm aware that a lot of us (including me) are angry at Riot's "compensating" but it's still a thing).

11 Comments

Crett3 votes

Awesome champion, but he's an outdated design.

Veigar isn't fine to me. His kit FUNCTIONS. I don't think he lives up to his character in his current state. His main problems lie in his E, but not directly; His reliance on this ability to set up his pattern (which completely destabilizes if he can't land it, leading to awkward stare downs between cage walls and fumbled Ws, wasted mana) makes his other abilities seem dysfunctional. If he lands this ability, he instantly becomes reliable, allowing him to blow you to smithereens with impunity. This is why he sometimes seems like such a great champion. But he just isn't fun this way, not for me

He can do some nice zoning and his teamfight potential is high, (VERY high) but his gameplay pattern feels like just way too much mispotential not to be slightly upset about.

He shouldn't be centered around his cage, either. It's a strength of his, and he can use it for teamfighting, zone control, chasing, self defense, but the real changes need to happen to the REST of his kit at this point. NOT his E.

He could be more fun to fight, and he could be more fun to play. It's not a question of how GOOD he is, and it's not a question of where he grips it. It's a simple question of weight ratios. A five ounce bird cannot carry a two pound coconut.

A villain shouldn't be predictable. His cage should just be a tool he employs, not a defining factor of his trades. Beating Veigar should be about playing his game. But how can we make this fun for BOTH players, while maintaining his fantasy AND keeping him a reliable pick?

There's really no sense in arguing his E change; it needed to happen, and his problem isn't in his E. It's that he relied on it for the rest of his pattern. This means to me, that we should look at how we can improve Veigar's kit as a whole. I think it's possible that his whole kit aside from E needs to be reworked. Overhauling an outdated design doesn't work, because the original design had a different vision and playstyle in mind. meaningfully tweaking it can only break it one way or another (see Kassadin and Ryze) I feel he is foremost a burst mage (one of the most damaging, potentially) with control capabilities on the side (poke, cc, zone control)

ClockHead3 votes

As somebody who used to main Veigar, but started playing a lot less after his rework, I am in love with some of these ideas. I was infact excited for his rework at first, because I thought Riot thought about it, and was taking the time to really make Veigar into the great champion he deserves to be. I've read many red posts about him pre-rework, and many of them talked about how they didn't want him to be the kind of champ that would run in, spam all his abilities, then be completely useless as they waited for cooldowns. It disappointed me when I found out they weren't taking the time to redo him as they should've, and instead threw together a cheap and fast fix for people complaining. So I'll do my part and try my hand at making him better, so here's what I propose:

Q: Pretty much the same, except I think that if you kill 1 enemy with it, the mana use is cut in half, and if you kill 2 enemies, the full cost is refunded. To balance this out, it would cost more mana to use, so that missing it or using it as a poke method would be more costly. It would be easier to balance out farming with his Q and poke, with helping the player rationalize the importance of farming with his Q. An alternative would be that it gives you 2 ap instead of one, but if you land it on 2 minions, it gives you 3, and if you land it on 1 or more big monsters, it gives you 4.

W: Similar, except that it has a smaller delay of 0.75 or 0.5 seconds, and/or the closer you are to the middle, the more damage it does. For example, if you were on the edge of the spell, it would do 50 percent, while if you were in the middle, it would do 120 percent or something like that.

E: Veigar's E would be switched with his ult... kind of... you'll see. It's very similar to his ult in the sense that it's a point and click spell, but it also has some added effects. When you use it on somebody, it will hit them, scaling with 20/30/40/50/60 percent of his AP, (or somewhere close idk), and heals Veigar for 0/15/30/45/60 percent of the damage done to the enemy, after magic resist and passives apply, and slow them. Since his stun is gone, this will give him some more sustainability in lane, but not too much. I don't know how much it will cost in terms of mana, but it would be somewhere around 50 - 80 I'd assume.

R: His R would be much different than it is now. For one, any enemy that's not a champion in range of the ult will be immobilized and unable to do really anything. There would be an inner section, and an outer section of his ult too. Any champions caught in the outer section will have a 70/75/80/85/90 percent slow for the spell duration, and anybody in the inner section when it's casted will be stunned for 0.5/1/1.5/2/2.5 seconds, then have a slow for the duration of the spell. They will also have a similar effect to his ult that makes any spells casted by Veigar deal 80 percent of the enemy's AP as long as they're in the ult radius. It strengthens his other spells enough that it matches the usefulness of his current ult, but he wouldn't be as reliant on his it as his current ult.

I believe that at least the basic concept of these ideas would work well with Veigar, but the specific numbers could use some fine tuning. Suggestions prease!

EDIT: I do believe that when Riot gets the chance to expand the story in Noxus or Bandle City like they did with bilgewater, that they will take the time to remake Veigar into what he has the potential to be, and probably even rework his visuals. Rito plz.

saveguc691 votes

Veigar is balanced. No changes needed

Sasogwa3 votes

{quoted}

Veigar is balanced. No changes needed

Did you even read fully? I said he was fine balance-wise but not fine gameplay-wise because etc.

Also, you don't play Veigar at all. Literally 0 ranked games with him in the last 3 seasons.

Crett2 votes

Rather, it hasn't got anything to do with balance. My issue is Veigar's kit doesn't feel great to play, what with the clunky feeling that comes from pretty much completely relying on E

Sasogwa1 votes

I forgot some suggestions I had seen : -** Warning removal ** E no longer has warnings, but keeps its delay. Allows mindgames as to prediction of where the enemy's gonna go. -** Daylight trap ** Since inside the Event Horizon is supposedly a black hole, the attraction is such that the light does not escape it. People inside the cage lose their vision (much like Graves W)

And well yeah, a bit like Crett said, there's possibly the full scale rework. Start back from scratch and try to create a whole new kit for Veigar. I must agree that his kit isn't very cohesive anymore since he was completely reliant on E, and now since E is unreliable, he looks like a random assemblage of different spells with no real synergy between them, some of a control mage and some of a burst mage.

Xotraz le sage1 votes

Good thing is that he is not in the list of previous rework. Seems like the rework was just a fix to veigar support issue. Mordekaiser just had another rework announced. There is still hope. Veigar item 3070

WhiskerWow1 votes

Veigar and Viktor are both similar, as they are both 100-0 control mages with crazy AP, and I think, if they were to rework Veigar, they would see how to make him different from Viktor.

They should both lock down someone and then nuke them, that's their theme, but what do they do when they're not nuking someone?

They both end up poking and kiting, Viktor with his Q and E, and Veigar with his Q and maybe his W on cc'd members.

I think Veigar should have less focus on poking down the enemy, and more focus on locking people down with his E and maybe other new CC is in his kit. It would also make his W more reliable. Some ideas I have for this is...

  • Much shorter cooldown on E in exchange for lower stun time.
  • A new passive that can slow the enemy. Maybe with aas marking the enemy, and when an enemy gets hit with an ability, the marks detonate for damage and a slow (root at max stack?), depending on the stacks.
  • Lower AP scaling on W if he gets more CC and damage, so it won't get too powerful.
Craft Zeppelin1 votes

Personally I think he needs some visual updates as well...especially that cage. It needs to be more...what? cosmic looking? Like look at soraka's skills, more cosmic than veig.

ClockHead1 votes

I'd say maybe less cosmic, and more of a dark magic type look, with dark symbols and things, and a dark blue/black/white/purpleish color scheme.

Sasogwa1 votes

bump

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