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@Riot - Why is Ahri allowed to stay at a consistent 54% winrate throughout the season?

Canastus··51 votes·4,045 views

Ahri Real question. I'd like to know why an overly mobile champion with great assassination potential is allowed to stay at such a high winrate throught the entire season without ever getting looked at. Her pickrate ain't too shabby, either. No matter how many casuals pick her up, she continues to perform in an overwhelming fashion. Don't you think there might be something problematic about that?

Ahri is the most popular ap midlaner in the game, and that for a good reason. Her gameplay leaves little risk for her while offering huge rewards once she lands one of her skillshots, all thanks to the extremely generous safety nets you've given her (her sheer mobility) which makes it almost impossible to even gank her in lane. She also gets free movespeed for merely casting one of her abilities without having to hit her target(s) unlike certain other champions (Cassiopeia).

The last nerf to her sustain didn't do anything to reduce her effectiveness, she remains as strong as ever. So why haven't you considered any real changes to her gameplay yet? Could this be due to the recent release of yet another Ahri skin or do you simply fear upsetting her playerbase? Please respond.

101 Comments

Only Play Darius29 votes

Because she isn't outright toxic to play against. She's safe, easy to play, and effective at what she does, but playing against her doesn't make you want to punch a wall like other champions with overloaded kits and/or gimmicky mechanics, her numbers have been too high at various points in time but her kit as a whole is well designed. If anything she feels like one of the more fair champs to lane against.

Other champs like Leblanc Blitzcrank Fizz Darius Nidalee Vladimir get nerfed when they are remotely viable because the experience of fighting against them is opposite of what you play a videogame for, their playstyle is obnoxious at best and oppressive at worst and no one wants to see them in games.

LadyRenly5 votes

Agreed. I don't mind Ahri being strong because I feel I have a chance to win with whoever I use and doesn't have much innate BS. For example, Heimer could be the most balanced champ in the world with a 1% win rate and I'd still yell bloody murder just facing him

Noble Fox7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aQREbWfK,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-08T21:37:17.063+0000)

Because she isn't outright toxic to play against. She's safe, easy to play, and effective at what she does, but playing against her doesn't make you want to punch a wall like other champions with overloaded kits and/or gimmicky mechanics, her numbers have been too high at various points in time but her kit as a whole is well designed. If anything she feels like one of the more fair champs to lane against.

Other champs like Leblanc Blitzcrank Fizz Darius Nidalee Vladimir get nerfed when they are remotely viable because the experience of fighting against them is opposite of what you play a videogame for, their playstyle is obnoxious at best and oppressive at worst and no one wants to see them in games.

Perfectly said. She's not yasuo levels of annoying, just a good mid laner.

Jeanne fan club6 votes

Ahri can be allowed to be strong in the right hands because every lane matchup she has is purely skill based. Many midlaners can poke with 2+ abilities and combo, while Ahri only has an easy to dodge skillshot. Not to mention she is easy to harass out of lane. She has no kill pressure before lvl 6, and even when she does get her ult it is still quite easy to dodge her skillshots. I don't quite understand why people join the Ahri hate train. Heimerdinger has always had a higher win rate and no one really cares about him. Not that Heimer is op, its just an example.

Koechophe4 votes

I find it extremely frustrating to play against her as any assassin or skill-shot based champions. Having 3 dashes on her ult as well as a speed boost makes her exceptionally mobile, and it's very difficult to dodge an ult-dash into E combo if the Ahri knows what she's doing. She's frustrating to me because unless you have insane burst and hard cc (so anyone but annie) you can't ever really kill her.

Also, just as a note, I think that Darius is a lot more balanceable with the new rework. Delay on his Q and his E being "bug fixed" makes him very easy to outplay. Pity that no one seems to want to.

bizzle899 votes

A month ago when she was at the exact same Winrate I was downvoted for a comment like this on a "Pls don't touch Ahri thread"!!!. This board is funny :D

ReshiKillim8 votes

Denying her CS and punishing her for trying to farm hurts her a lot. It reduces her overall sustainability by a large margin. And the belief that Morello's gives enough mana regen to spam everything is nothing but a myth. If she was building Athene's it would be believable.

Athene's has the same amount of base mana regen and CDR, 2% missing per 5, and 30% mana back if she gets a kill or assist. Plus a nice little bit of MR to help. With a difference of 20 AP and 400 gold.

Ahri's mana regen without Morello's: 6 - 19.6 (Lvl 1-18) Ahri's mana regen with Morello's: 12 - 39.2 (Lvl 1-18) Ahri's mana regen with Morello's and Doran's: 15 - 42.2 per 5.

This means that at lvl 18, Morello's gives 10.8 too little per 5 for her foxfires which cost 50 mana (Which are on a 5 second CD at level 5) And with Doran's the mana regen still isn't enough.

Ahri's base mana pool: 334 – 1184

Unless she buys more mana regen items other than Morello, builds flat mana or Athene's, she'll run out of mana rather quickly if she tries to spam poke at you.

Orb Costs: 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 (7S CD)

Foxfires Cost: 50 (9/8/7/6/5S CD)

Charm Cos: 85 (12S CD)

Foxy-triple-dash-whatever-it's-called Cost: 100 (110/95/80S CD)

Morello's doesn't cut it for the mana needed to sustain, so it means she's getting a lot of mana from elsewhere. And she is. CS. 4 mana per minion may not seem like much, but it stacks up fast when added to her mana regen. That's a potential 24 mana per cannon-less wave, 28 if cannon is included.

Though that 24 - 28 isn't much in the late game, it the early to mid it means a lot. She's getting gold and the mana needed to poke you, by CSing. So to counterplay her, deny her as much CS as possible and punish all attempts at CSing to the best of your ability.

While this doesn't fix her being a little bit too safe, and I agree that she should get her MS boost from hitting people with her abilities instead of from just casting, it makes things a lot easier to deal with in lane.

The Bíg Ticket7 votes

Cause half of the community has Ahri pillows at home and fap to her.

Jeanne fan club2 votes

Us Ahri players have to play with only one hand m8y. Give us a break

AmazingGoat7 votes

Ahri feels too safe. Ganking her is borderline impossible. Poking her down is way harder than you would think because of her sustain (even after the nerf). You can't all in her unless she wants to go all in, because her ult is pretty much an automatic escape mid lane. On top of all of this, if you get hit by a charm she can all in you and burst you down no matter how far away she is when the charm lands. Oh, did I mention she has true damage to hurt tanks?

luckmallory6 votes

Move her movespeed bonus to her E. Now she is balanced

HopFrogger7 votes

That would be an awkward mechanic. It makes sense on Q; I don't know if it would feel useful on E.

Perhaps nerfing her mana regen/pool so that her abilities have to be a little more calculated?

luckmallory6 votes

I'm saying she should move it to E so she gets the movespeed bonus for landing it. You know? some skill required

Instead of getting ganked and throwing your Q into butt fuck no where and sprinting off

Poske10 votes

{quoted}

I'm saying she should move it to E so she gets the movespeed bonus for landing it. You know? some skill required

Instead of getting ganked and throwing your Q into butt fuck no where and sprinting off

By that stupid logic you could make her only gain ms if she hits q...

luckmallory1 votes

Q goes through minions, E does not.

Pika3105 votes

Thematically the MS should be on W. It's the least interesting of her spells and would give her back some of the interaction between her spells that was lost when they removed the damage amp from E.

How hypocritical that Riot speaks of making champions interesting, more rewarding for mastery, having counter-play and in-depth play-styles. Yet in that single nerf to Ahri, they contradicted all of their own values that they incessantly preach.

Chromatic Eagle3 votes

Why not move it to W? That ability doesn't really offer anything but damage.

Ancestor0073 votes

She is already mana hungry, and running oom even with morello. I don't think that would be the best thing to do. Since i can't see nothing outrageous with her. Is she strong? Yes. Is she overpowered? No. Is she too overloaded? No. Can she 1-shot you early whithout poking you previous to that? No. Does she use 4/5 of her mana pool per EQW combo? Yes. Can you win against her in lane? Yes. Does she pose a challenge? Yes. I am not an ahri main, but even a mere gold 3 can figure out the difference between her being strong and Release Lb/Xin being op as hell

Guy Fox Teemo6 votes

Win-rates mean jack shit unless they have a 64% win rate like skarner had. If win rates meant everything then brand Amumu and Malzahar are OP as shit to huh?

Matezoide18 votes

{quoted}

Win-rates mean jack shit unless they have a 64% win rate like skarner had. If win rates meant everything then brand Amumu and Malzahar are OP as shit to huh?

Win rate by itself doesnt matter. The problem is when it is compared to the pick-rate.

A champion with 30% pick shouldnt win near as often as Ahri does.

This is so fucking obvious it hurts when people use Amumu as an argument.

Guy Fox Teemo16 votes

17% Pick rate. Xin Zhao has a 15% pick rate but I don't see people complaining about him being OP. (Xin has a 54% win rate as well)

SaltyKracka17 votes

Um. The Xin's that have that winrate use Sated Devourer. There have been_ nothing but_ complaints about Sated since the day it went live.

Venowolf15 votes

In Xin case, is Devourer fault not Xin

Cindikle4 votes

Can we also blame Luden's for being Ahri's problem? Because it helps give her that needed burst to assassinate that was taken from her.

DogIsGod1 votes

That's why it's a percentage. It doesn't matter if its 50% out of 200 or 200000 games. It's still 50%.

WalkingInACircle3 votes

The general reasoning people put behind the claim about winrate + pickrate is that high pickrate must mean that the champion has a lot of players new the champion playing it. And therefore, if it also has a high winrate it means even noobs can do well with the champion, which of course means its overpowered. It does not make any sense. Rather, champion.gg has the actual statistic average number of games played by player per champ. Ahri's is average.

SaltyKracka4 votes

If you're talking about champion.gg, even people new to Ahri have >50% winrates with her. She's overpowered.

WalkingInACircle2 votes

The same way Gnar is underpowered, amirite?

SaltyKracka1 votes

Gnar probably is underpowered in yolo Q. I mean, I hate him and all the ranged manaless toplaner shit they put on Mini Gnar, but the statistics speak for themselves.

Personally, if I had to change him I'd put a much bigger focus on him staying in Mega Gnar form, instead of transforming, jumping on people, and getting his burst/CC combo off. He'd stay in Mega form much longer, have slightly weaker skills, and would be somewhat tankier in exchange for nerfing Mini Gnar and making it an actual weakness for him in lane.

WalkingInACircle3 votes

I can assure you the number of champions that are strong competitively but have low winrates don't end with him. But you acknowledge that's soloQ, right? Competitively speaking, Ahri has about a 13% pick/ban in LCS last I saw, having won 5 games of 9. Not 0%, but she's clearly not a favored pick at the highest level of play.

But yes, at soloQ the data says she's overpowered. But then, there are several champions which are higher than her at soloQ as well. Especially in the hands of experienced players, Ahri's winrate is 56% which isn't terribly high. You can see champions like Talon and Twisted Fate also have that >50% winrate for new players and over 57% on experienced.

SaltyKracka2 votes

I'm not exactly saying I'd be sad to see nerfs for TF or Talon (or Heimer, that piece of shit) either.

You're correct that solo Q statistics don't necessarily translate well over to competitive, but there are things to be said for champs not just dominating it even if they're unseen in competitive play either (e.g. Kat)

KatCraft2 votes

54% winrate is hardly dominating either. This statistic alone is not indicative of imbalance. She's popular but she also has the lowest banrate of champions that are considered good this meta, and for a good reason. She simply isn't very oppressive and you can outplay her relatively easily.

Being easy to learn and popular does not make a champion nerf worthy.

SaltyKracka3 votes

No, but being the single most popular midlane champion with a ricockulous winrate is.

And let's be seriously here. 54% is definitely dominating.

KatCraft3 votes

54% is very much within the boundaries of balance. You will never have a game in a state of everything being 50% but winrates of 46% and 54% as the biggest outliers is considered fine.

What does being one of the most popular midlaners but having one of the lowest banrates of any champion considered meta tell you. She isn't even in the top 4 of most banned mids, Azir, Viktor, Dianna, and Fizz have higher banrates.

She doesn't have an obscene winrate and players don't think her kit is toxic or strong enough that's worthy of being banned despite how often she is seen. I don't really see any grounds for nerfing her tbh.

SaltyKracka3 votes

{quoted}

54% is very much within the boundaries of balance. You will never have a game in a state of everything being 50% but winrates of 46% and 54% as the biggest outliers is considered fine.

If you're only concerned with defending Ahri, sure.

What does being one of the most popular midlaners but having one of the lowest banrates of any champion considered meta tell you. She isn't even in the top 4 of most banned mids, Azir, Viktor, Dianna, and Fizz have higher banrates.

She certainly is in the top 10. But for this patch in particular, I suspect that it's more because most people are banning Juggernauts and Fiora right now.

She doesn't have an obscene winrate and players don't think her kit is toxic or strong enough that's worthy of being banned despite how often she is seen. I don't really see any grounds for nerfing her tbh.

"I'm going to appeal to the nebulous perceptions of people who are still playing, banning, and winning disproportionately than her"

Nice argument, brah. She's still way too strong.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

Lux has a ~56% winrate with 10% play rate. Why don't you go QQ about her too? She is only played only 7% less than Ahri. Winrates and Play percent define how "overpowered" the champion is you know, not factors like the direction of the meta, or other indirect changes or anything kappa.

SaltyKracka2 votes

...This isn't a topic about Lux. But since you're going to go ahead and be a dishonest wonk in this manner anyways, yes, I believe Lux deserves nerfs.

Hell, I believe she didn't deserve buffs in the first place.

Totalis6 votes

Ahri's good because of her reliability, not because she is that game-breakingly strong

Cenobite Azaziel3 votes

{quoted}

Ahri's good because of her reliability, not because she is that game-breakingly strong

Ahri is good because when she makes a mistake it is really hard to punish her. There is no decision making in most of her skills. MS boost = I can Q anywhere. No decision making. Enemy goes all in and I'm gonna die? No problem, just burn it all my skills. Even if I'm dead my illusionary orb will come back to a rotten corpse and deal true damage to punish the enemy W = Near enemy creeps? no problemo. It prioritizes champions. E = I can charm from a distance or wait and point blank shot some one. IF I miss from distance I'l ll just Q and get away with free damage. R = It doesn't prioritize champions, but can only with one target. So 2 creeps and one champion? Free hit with a dash.

Add up to that there is no "right play pattern" versus her. You are behind you wave so you can block E? Though luck, you're gonna eat up that Q and she will clear the wave. You are away from your creep wave? Eat up E and she will W+Q you.

You are far far away, with a poke mage? No problem. She will poke you the same way while clearing the wave and if you poke back she has sustain.

You go all in because you are fed up with the pokes? She will burst you OR she will run away while taking away half of your life =D.

It is a kit with no weakness. Sure, you can say mana cost but a doran ring during lane phase and blues after that and there is no weakness.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

I would try and explain how everything you just said is not even remotely correct, but I have done that so many times to no avail. People just let these Ahri hate trains go to their head. Just reading this post makes me think you are delusional. There are so many over exaggerations here that I wouldn't even know where to start telling you how wrong you are. People like you would rather the game be easier for them rather than actually get better at it.

Cenobite Azaziel1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Trianglez,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aQREbWfK,comment-id=000900010001,timestamp=2015-09-09T21:33:21.128+0000)

I would try and explain how everything you just said is not even remotely correct, but I have done that so many times to no avail. People just let these Ahri hate trains go to their head. Just reading this post makes me think you are delusional. There are so many over exaggerations here that I wouldn't even know where to start telling you how wrong you are. People like you would rather the game be easier for them rather than actually get better at it.

Sorry. If you mean delusional 17 pick rate, 53% winrate, being a solid 52% with 1~10 games played (low skill floor) yes, I'm pretty delusional. You said ahri captalizes on laners mistakes. No problem with that. The problem with that is the spell she uses to captalize on your mistakes gives her a safe conduct.

Lux is broken right now. She was good before her E area buffs. She is plain broken, but you can still punish her HARD if she misses a Q. She has no mobility. There is no decision making in throwing her Q. Ahri get the ms even if she hit or miss.

The Q ms buff gives saves her R for escaping or an all in. It would be good if ahri uses her R so it is wasted if she makes a bad decision.

Overlord Forte5 votes

Ahri is the most popular ap midlaner in the game

This right here. Ahri, as a champion, has traditionally been an incredibly popular one - not just for her strong kit. You can observe a slew of conditional buffs that have managed to keep her meta relevant since her release, with the occasional tapping down when she gets a little too high.

The core of her kit right now is the poster child for midlane assassins and uniquely among those that can deal with tanks/juggernauts. Changing that would knock her right out of her seat, similar to Kassadin's problem. You would have to talk about changing her CC, true damage, and foxfire/dash mechanics in some way that reduces her projection capabilities. Unfortunately, doing so will probably remove her viability as picks like LeBlanc rocket past her.

Keep in mind, they were afraid to nerf Lee Sin for the same reasons. He's incredibly popular, to the point actually impacting him would significantly affect their player base. They went on record to state as much. I can imagine the same situation applying here.

Worldferno4 votes

It's obviously because the members of the balance team have bought all the champs but Ahri and want to make sure she gets the victorious skin so they can save 6300 IP. God... it's like you've never conspiracied before.

Tomatosx4 votes

Because you don't know how to pick Swain or Annie doesn't mean a champ should be nerfed.

SaltyKracka2 votes

{quoted}

Herp derp y dun u counterpick her herp derp

Great idea! It's not like she's OP or anything! I wonder why nobody ever thought of that idea before!

Tomatosx5 votes

Because shes not? Literally all of her abilities are SKILLSHOTS, its not the ahris player fault that you love to walk straight.

SaltyKracka2 votes

Okay, so you're blind as well as disingenuous. Good to know.

Tomatosx3 votes

Yep we disagree on opinions so your going to resort to typical lame insults, glad to know your living up to your name. :), reported.

Seenan2 votes

One of the issues she has is, combined with the MS boosts, is the fact that she builds Luden's practically first or second item. +10% MS is a tad radical for an item that's basically core/necessary for a lot of somewhat mobile mid lanes to power-house through the game with 800 AP (let alone Luden's next burst), and Ahri isn't an outlier for that...But in reality, the Q MS boost should've never been added. Her Q's cooldown is ridiculously low/spammable basically AND it gives speed? Infact, all of her cds are pretty low outside of her charm.

NineTailedMystic5 votes

Her Q MS boost is basically the only buff she's gotten with the removal of DFG, which was her compensation buff. Otherwise, Q mana costs more, W range nerf, a shift of power from charm damage amp to charm base and scaling damage, ult nerf, and passive nerf.

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