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The Juggernauts & Darius

SirHeavyScrotum·Dec 25, 2015·2 votes·786 views

So the goal of the Juggernaut update was to update some of the more neglected champions in that class of champion, and to make the whole class feel viable again. So that was the goal, but in the process the Darius update made a juggernaut that made every other juggernaut irrelevant. The whole class trades and fights by sitting on your face and dealing tons of damage over a period of time, but Darius takes that play pattern and throws it out the window, long trades with Darius is the worst idea ever. Seems like the point was kind of mute.

Edit: SINCE THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF CONFUSION AS TO WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY LET ME CLARIFY: Pretty much every Juggernaut needs to sit on you for a while to trade with you, that's what they're known for and that's their intentional play pattern. However, Darius makes it impossible for other juggernauts to deal with him in lane because him doing that is 10x better than most of the other Juggernauts. He wins those long trades vs immobile opponents so hard after getting a 5 stack that most Juggernauts cannot really lane vs Darius. They made a class dependent on a certain play style (sitting on you to death) and made one of those members of that class so good at it that the others can't really win a lane vs him.

And before someone pipes up saying that Garen beats Darius in lane, no, most of the time he doesn't. Lol.

19 Comments

Hayaishi2Dec 25, 20152 votes

darius is the worst juggernaut atm...

SirHeavyScrotumDec 25, 20151 votes

That's just not true ^_^

Hayaishi2Dec 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

That's just not true ^_^

Yes it is, too stupidly easy to kite, at least Garen has an easier time dealing with CC and even if he's behind he can do a lot of damage due to the villain mechanic.

SirHeavyScrotumDec 25, 20151 votes

Darius has cc, unlike Garen, so when he gets on you he sticks a lot harder than Garen, and he has a pull to reach out and grab you. Yes, he is weaker to CC but Garen isn't great against CC anyway. Darius can still do a lot of damage because of his passive when behind. Regardless Garen has nothing to do with this conversation.

Hayaishi2Dec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Darius has cc, unlike Garen, so when he gets on you he sticks a lot harder than Garen, and he has a pull to reach out and grab you. Yes, he is weaker to CC but Garen isn't great against CC anyway. Darius can still do a lot of damage because of his passive when behind. Regardless Garen has nothing to do with this conversation.

You said Darius makes every other Juggernaut irrelevant and i answered by saying he doesn't because Garen is better than him.

Darius's E is fine, but it doesn't help him against mobility or CC, which Garen's Q does. Darius is completely irrelevant if he falls behind due to how easy it is to kite him. Even when he is doing good unless he is completely fed he is too easy to deal with. One slow and he can't reach his target.

HaiLnKillDec 25, 20151 votes

[deleted]

SirHeavyScrotumDec 25, 20151 votes

[deleted]

AVL PrinceDec 25, 20151 votes

No they're counters. He specifically addressed them as counters. Nothing else. I don't agree, as none of them have anything on Darius, but his comment on denying Darius's play pattern through sticking close and abusing the hilt of his blade is true.

Also your post doesn't make a lot of coherent sense. You say Riot failed in creating a juggernaut class with Darius, but you then say long extended trades with him seem like the worst idea - but that in itself is the point of a juggernaut. Their strength lies in the ability to bully you in long trades with their overwhelming damage and husky strength, which in theory makes up for the lack of, and is subsequently countered by, relevant mobility.

By this logic Darius is the best example of what an archetypical juggernaut should be. A template of sorts; and the rest fall comparatively short.

SirHeavyScrotumDec 25, 20151 votes

None of those champions you just mentioned are Juggernauts, lol.

The problem is that Juggernauts can't get out of a fight that they've already started, so he get's like 3 stacks on you, pulls you back in with a slow, slows you again, and before you know it you've got a 5 stack that you never wanted. I'm a pretty good Darius player, and that's how I win a lot of lanes, just auto fight, then when they try to run pull them back in. Those champions can get away once they get too many bleed stacks, and can dodge the Q even while slowed, unlike basically 100% of the juggernauts.

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 25, 20151 votes

the council of experts has spoken

Big LincolnDec 25, 20151 votes

That's kind of the point?

Darius is the juggernaut who is best in long fights

Garen and Mordekaiser can dump the majority of their burst on you immediately. Darius needs to commit harder to fights and is usually more reliant on his team to succeed

JbelsDec 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Bards,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aOde4tNm,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-12-25T22:30:12.251+0000)

That's kind of the point?

Darius is the juggernaut who is best in long fights

Garen and Mordekaiser can dump the majority of their burst on you immediately. Darius needs to commit harder to fights and is usually more reliant on his team to succeed

Then what the fuck is Skarner supposed to be at this point? Other than nerfed despite not being in any way, shape, or form, overpowered.

Big LincolnDec 26, 20151 votes

Then what the fuck is Skarner supposed to be at this point?

a relic that riot doesn't know what to do with

to be fair, he has a pretty handy ult, but that seems to be the only thing riot will ever allow him to keep

ShahamutDec 26, 20151 votes

They need to revert the juggernaut changes to skarner... :(

MorganFreemanBotDec 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

They need to revert the juggernaut changes to skarner... :(

They need to definitely not do that.

The juggernaut changes to skarner made him actually matter for the first time ever, and even since his rough nerfing he's still much stronger than he was pre juggernaut patch.

EDIT: If they need to repeal any skarner nerfs, they need to pull off all of what Riotscruffy did and return him back to how he was in s2.

ShahamutDec 26, 20151 votes

Prior to the juggernaut changes, Skarner was a "secret op" to those of us who played him a lot. He was perfectly viable in top lane and as a mid lane niche vs melee assassins.

The juggernaut changes wrapped skarner into the jungle as being his only really viable position. The spires had too much power, and he has since been waaaaaay nerfed. He is back to where he was in relevance, but now is only playable in jungle.

I want to be able to play him in lane again and feel ok for doing it. :/

MorganFreemanBotDec 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Prior to the juggernaut changes, Skarner was a "secret op" to those of us who played him a lot. He was perfectly viable in top lane and as a mid lane niche vs melee assassins.

Yes, in silver you could play Skarner in top or mid without much of a problem. In silver you could also play AP renekton or bruiser Draven and feasibly carry games if you were the right combination of good and lucky.

Skarner was not great before the juggernaut patch. He wasn't hot garbage sitting in the dumpster (Sion prior to his rework, Fiora in general) that was unplayable, but he did not function up to par in any role at higher levels. The Juggernaut patch changed this and while it did pigeon-hole him into the jungle, it actually made him reasonably good at something.

MorganFreemanBotDec 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Then what the fuck is Skarner supposed to be at this point? Other than nerfed despite not being in any way, shape, or form, overpowered.

Skarner's the Juggernaut with the most CC, though I'd honestly say he's not really a juggernaut by their definition. Just a CC heavy bruiser / tank, the only real "juggernaut" aspect of his kit is having no targeted gap closer / no targeted range CC.

So far as Darius goes.. My answer is: So what? It's not like there aren't bruisers out there who counter other bruisers (olaf), tanks who murder other tanks (maoki / zac), mages who murder other mages (Veigar DELETES YOU!) and assassins who heavily counter other assassins (Ekko's ulti is a superb anti-assassination tool).

Just because a champion belongs to a specific 'class' doesn't mean that they're not allowed to be good at fighting that specific class. Darius just happens to be the guy who likes to wail on you in an extended fight and does very well when he gets to, but that's pretty much his only niche. He doesn't have good engage and he doesn't burst unless he meets his prerequisites, it's not like he's the undisputed king of top lane or anything.

So again, I'm tempted to ask why it matters that one juggernaut does well against other juggernauts.

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