What if Ekko's stun duration scaled with AP up to a maximum cap?

Lao Fu the Tiger·May 14, 2016·47 votes·44,211 views

192 Comments

RiotMeddlerMay 14, 201656 votes

AP scaling on Ekko's utility's got some promise and its something we're currently testing out as part of a set of changes aimed to pushing Ekko furter towards AP builds/away from tank builds in patch 6.11.

Changes we're currently testing (subject to change as usual of course):

Q outgoing damage to 40-100 + 0.2 (from 60-120 + 0.1)
Q slow to 30% + 10% per 100 AP (from 32%-60%)
R damage to 150-450 + 1.5 (from 200-500 + 1.3)

Over InnsmouthMay 14, 201617 votes

Hey Meddler, is there any chance you might look at his passive too? The movespeed he gets is already pretty huge, does it also need to slow whoever he procs it on?

RiotMeddlerMay 14, 201615 votes

Possible, we want to focus on the things we think are the biggest issues to address first though. It's very much tank Ekko we want to target here as well, not all builds equally. AP Ekko by contrast's a much healthier champion.

Over InnsmouthMay 14, 201616 votes

Isn't the sticking power his passive provides (ignoring the slows/dashes from the rest of his kit and IBG) one of the bigger offending parts of Tankko?

Thanks for replying though~

Original BustaMay 15, 20163 votes

AP Ekko sorta needs the insane speed boost to stay alive though. From my experience with Ekko he needs to be able to deal a ton of damage to a champion and run/ult out and as Ekko you often want to use your ult to deal insane damage, without his ult he relies on his speed boost.

bloodmothMay 14, 20166 votes

He has 3 slows and a stun, if he isnt supposed to be a CC heavy melee champ, which generally reads 'tank' then he probably shouldnt have so much CC... I think hitting the slow on his passive is a good start, it already provides a massive speed boost, which is arguably more thematic

BisaknospMay 14, 201615 votes

{quoted}

AP scaling on Ekko's utility's got some promise and its something we're currently testing out as part of a set of changes aimed to pushing Ekko furter towards AP builds/away from tank builds in patch 6.11.

Changes we're currently testing (subject to change as usual of course):

Q outgoing damage to 40-100 + 0.2 (from 60-120 + 0.1)

Q slow to 30% + 10% per 100 AP (from 32%-60%)

R damage to 150-450 + 1.5 (from 200-500 + 1.3)

so with 700 ap he gets a 100% slow? with infernal drake and baron it doesnt seem so hard to reach 700

RiotMeddlerMay 14, 201636 votes

Yeah, there'll need to be some form of cap or diminishing returns in there if this tests well, not looking to give him a root with enough AP.

Jesus is SaviorMay 14, 201610 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, there'll need to be some form of cap or diminishing returns in there if this tests well, not looking to give him a root with enough AP.

Don't do diminishing returns. Just cap it. It would be easier to balance.

RiotMeddlerMay 14, 201634 votes

Not necessarily. A cap can send the message of 'get this much of a stat then build other stuff (potentially tank builds again). Diminishing returns beyond a certain point (e.g. 5% per 100 above 500, 2.5% above 700 etc) can be useful to avoid abuse cases (like a root here) while still rewarding the desired build path.

Jesus is SaviorMay 14, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Not necessarily. A cap can send the message of 'get this much of a stat then build other stuff (potentially tank builds again). Diminishing returns beyond a certain point (e.g. 5% per 100 above 500, 2.5% above 700 etc) can be useful to avoid abuse cases (like a root here) while still rewarding the desired build path.

He can't build tanky if the cap is high though. If you cap it at 300 AP, then sure, he's gonna build tanky. If you cap it at something like 600 AP, then the only way he'll be "building tanky" is if they get 3 infernal dragons, and if the enemy team lets that happen they honestly deserve it. And even then, all his "tanky" items will need to be AP bruiser items. If he gives up one for a pure tank item he still won't hit the cap (but he'll get close).

ThalesMay 14, 20163 votes

It's already soft-capped (and eventually hard capped) by the reduced slow effects, isn't it? The same reason Thresh ult isn't a root.

QuephaMay 14, 20163 votes

{quoted}

can be useful to avoid abuse cases (like a root here)

I thought there was a hard minimum for movespeed that no amount of slow could reduce movement speed below

RiotMeddlerMay 14, 201623 votes

There is a minimum move speed cap. 100% slows ignore it though and turn into roots.

QuadraKevMay 15, 201615 votes

So what you're saying is that roots are coded as slows

ElisaiMay 15, 20169 votes

100% slows to be exact.

ΚαisαMay 15, 20169 votes

no, because you can´t dash with a root, but you can still dash with a slow.

Darkslayer85May 15, 201611 votes

Well, you can still dash with a 100% slow, unlike roots, that's one difference

patmax17May 14, 20166 votes

AFAIK there is already a cap on slows (see Thresh Ult 99% slow, isn't a snare)

BlackquillMay 14, 20163 votes

Even better example: Rumbles E slows you for 52.5% per missile. If you hit both then you are slowed by 105% but according to lolwiki (not the most reliable source but its proven ingame after all) MS is at a minimum 110.

RespectPlusMay 15, 20164 votes

{quoted}

There is a minimum move speed cap. 100% slows ignore it though and turn into roots.

Angry MonsterMay 14, 20163 votes

Or 10% is to high for every 100 AP. If you lowered it to 5% per 100, it would be way to keep from maxing the slow out.

I am not even sure Ekko needs 60% Debuff when he has a double gap close and a speed up

I am biased though, i think the kit he has is way over loaded.

BombstekMay 15, 20164 votes

Are u guys aware of this nerfs? This will literally bring him to the ground i mean he will be out again

IEvenTiltTimeMay 15, 20164 votes

Can we get information about upcoming Ekko skins? All of his current skins are arguably worse then his original.

SomeoneShadyMay 15, 20162 votes

Does that scaling have to be linear?

WimbledofyMay 14, 20161 votes

No slow is truly that strong though. There's a soft cap on movement speed slows. Notice how when you get slowed by thresh wall/nasus wither/zilean slow you aren't truly slowed by 99%. Though I don't know how a 100% slow would work if it would really be considered 100% and you would be rooted or if it would work nearly the same as the 99% slow.

EndlessSorcererMay 14, 20163 votes

100% slow would take you down to 110 MS, IIRC.

It's on the wiki, but I'm too lazy to go get it.

XeroKimoMay 14, 20164 votes

O.o Vandril made a video with 100% slow ap nami, it puts it at 0 ms like it should so why would 100% slow go down to 110 ms?

EndlessSorcererMay 14, 20162 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Movement_speed#Calculations

When the raw movement speed is less than 220 another soft cap is used:

If the raw speed is below 220, it gets multiplied by 50% and added to 110.

Example 2: If the calculated raw speed is 0 before soft caps kick in, it is increased to 0 × 0.5 + 110 = 110.

Although, on second glance there does appear to be one other exception:

The only exception to this is when the slow exceeds 100%, in which case the target ends up with 0 movement speed.

The Yetii RiderMay 14, 20163 votes

Does Ekko's ultimate even need to do damage? Isn't the reposition and heal enough power and thematically appropriate?

RiotMeddlerMay 14, 201628 votes

Damage on Ekko's ult does a couple of things we like:

It encourages riskier, more offensive plays with the ult. Removing the damage by contrast would push Ekko towards mainly just using it to get out of a fight safely, rather than sometimes using it to re-engage, to set up an ambush etc.
It makes a significant amount of Ekko's damage unreliable, introducing a skill test for Ekko and a point of counterplay for his enemies. Tank Ekko's currently a problem, AP Ekko's much more reasonable. If we were removing all the damage from his ult we'd need to give him a lot of that back elsewhere to keep him functional, at least for the AP build. That'd have to be put in more reliable, less CD gated places though.

HigeMay 14, 20165 votes

Don't you think that tank itemization on mages is a bit out of control? I mean... tank fizz has been a thing for the longest time, tank akali, and even AP alistar...

that said I'm glad you're taking a look at Ekko at least, which only problem remains that his ult heals him for quite a bit unlike other tank assassins that you simply can't burst back.

RiotMeddlerMay 14, 201618 votes

We do think tank builds are too effective on a number of damage dealers, assassins such as Ekko, Fizz and Akali especially. Not concerned about AP Alistar. Also wouldn't call any of that group mages (AP users though certainly).

SourCustardMay 15, 20162 votes

Does that mean there are changes to Fizz and Akali in 6.11 along side the Ekko changes?

Kuroi86May 15, 20162 votes

One problem at a time likely. Probably aiming for the worst abuser atm.

Woook3rMay 14, 20163 votes

if the % hp trigger for the w passive scaled with ap, that would be nice...tank ekko shouldnt get that passive.

NymzoMay 15, 20162 votes

When I saw Ekko's teaser, I was interested by his ability to come back in time and restart the fight, correcting his mistakes in the process.

But when he came out, I was surprised that his ult was really different from what we see in the teaser.

I mean, yes, you do ''correct'' your mistakes when you ult as Ekko but I feel this is pretty much a Leblanc's w with bigger cd, heal and aoe dmg.

I'm no game designer but here how I would design his ult:

You could keep the shadow-hologram thing behind Ekko
Basically, his ult would allow you do the same thing as now but with a shorter aoe and with the heal but the delay for the travel is also shorter.
The thing is: his ult would be like a Kass ult: very short cd but the more times you use it, the more mana it will cost you (the heal could also be stronger just like Kassasin's does more dmg the more times you use it).

EndlessSorcererMay 14, 20162 votes

You mentioned that you are planning these changes for 6.11.

Are there any numeric nerfs lined up for 6.10 to make him less aggravating to deal with until you identify how to truly fix the issue?

RiotMeddlerMay 14, 20168 votes

No, there's nothing in 6.10. Our final day to submit 6.10 changes was last Wednesday (patches lock around a week before they go out) and our focus in 6.10 was primarily on follow up to all the mid-season changes.

ÂrvindMay 14, 20164 votes

Hi, I'm an Ekko main who's played AP Ekko mid almost exclusively for awhile now. Damage powershift seems reasonable but the Q slow is a much more powerful nerf than it appears imo. As AP Ekko you're highly combo reliant and the Q slow at levels 3-9 are what net you those early kills by letting you land your combo. The early slow is pretty much destroyed because it's really unlikely to get 200-300 AP from levels 3-9. Those early kills are fairly crucial on Ekko and could make it FAR more difficult to play AP Ekko mid without those necessary snowball kills. Obviously, I can't guarantee this but please at least consider it in your discussion of how to balance my favorite champion.

JudasLoverMay 15, 20162 votes

Hi Meddler. Wouldn't the Q outgoing damage nerf be unfair for AP Ekko mid before 100 AP?

spombjopMay 14, 201610 votes

Riven Shield that scale with AD and also gives dash. 4 Dashes Stun Ranged execute ultimate ~~Tanky~~ ~~Poke~~ ~~Heal~~

Ekko Shield that scale with AP Heal on ultimate combined with moblity (not healthy to have heal on champ that is meant to be an assassin) Double dash Ranged Poke Tanky Stun

Sahn UzalMay 14, 201614 votes

Heal on ultimate combined with moblity (not healthy to have heal on champ that is meant to be an assassin)

Rengar Khazix MasterYi Nocturne Nidalee Assassins having heals is nothing uncommon :l

Vistha KaiMay 14, 20163 votes

Rengar has to sacrifice a lot of damage for the heal, Kha'Zix needs to be in point-blank range of something he hits with W, Yi just stands still like a moron for the whole duration, Nocturne's heals is mediocre at best, Nidalee... I suppose, but she can't really use it in the middle of a combat.

On the other hand Ekko sacrifices nothing for using his heal.

Sahn UzalMay 14, 201611 votes

And Ekko needs to blow his ultimate. And it heals him for 20% of the damage he has taken in the past 4 sec. There is so much wrong with Ekko, but claiming Ekko has nothing to sacrifice nothing while the others do is just bullshit.

The 99th ProblemMay 14, 20166 votes

Rengar has to sacrifice a lot of damage for the heal

Ap Rengar anyone? Also it provides resistances.

"Yi just stands still like a moron for the whole duration"

Ekko can't attack during his "heal" either.

"Nocturne's heals is mediocre at best"

Still a heal, and a MUCH shorter cool down than Ekko's.

"Nidalee... I suppose, but she can't really use it in the middle of a combat."

Huh? Lol

bloodmothMay 14, 20163 votes

Actually it should make perfect sense. If an assassin has either ways to avoid or nullify damage, then they can afford to spend their gold on damage instead, if they cant avoid or nullify damage, then they will have to build tanky.

Riot messed up by giving this guy a sustained damage pattern, CC and decent base damage, which are things bruisers need, not assassins, so obviously bruiser/tank ekko would be a thing.

Preferably you give an assassin free damage mitigation, low base damage and high damage scaling so the best way to build them is to build offensively. Instead riot made the recipe for an effective bruiser.

One last note, assassins shouldnt have CC in the first place

SpoofghoulMay 14, 20163 votes

what if ekko's base armor scaled with ap

bloodmothMay 14, 201614 votes

then he gets tanky from building AP? What are you trying to achieve with this?

Raphael DawnMay 15, 20162 votes

Dear Meddler!

I am an ekko main.I have been for a long long time.Before it was op with tank items and he became an attention "prostitute". Im not here to suggest how to do ur job cause i want my champion to stay the way he is BUT i will humbly ask not to nerf him to the ground.

Pls dont send him to the back of the line and keep in mind that even tho "tank" items are really good ,the champion on his own is not THAT good unless ur really skilled with him.(think azir)

U probably have already taken this into consideration but i had to say something :P Welp...anywho. Have a good day and looking forward to seeing wats up.