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The Balance approaches are NEVER simple, I swear.

EinarUlfar··46 votes·2,410 views

You could nerf Ardent/give it a simple niche and accept the fact that having supports beef up carries (with items AS WELL AS THEIR KITS) that should have to wait out and work for their items isn't the healthiest design, and only aids power creep & covering hypercarries' weaknesses. You could simply work on Supports and attempt to give them stronger identities if they aren't performing well without these statstick-support-items.

You could buff turrets in SOME fucking manner, but god forbid we have even slightly longer games on average despite the inclusion of all things turret-smashing; despite turning League into a HoTS clone will destroy it as well as drive people away. If they wanted HoTS, they'd go play HoTS.

YOU COULD accept the fact that SOME THINGS just DON'T work out very well, and the best way to handle that IS NOT to throw an entire box of band-aids on the game to try and MAKE it work.

  • inb4 someone drops in, "BURTBURTBUTTT BALANCE ISN'T SIMPLE!" I acknowledge this. But ignoring the glaring issues in favor of trying to make unhealthy changes function isn't exactly a great idea nor one that leads to making the balancing any less difficult.

TO CLARIFY: I do not have an issue with hypercarries in and of themselves. Used them to help make my point regarding the current state of Support Itemization.

48 Comments

Divewing11 votes

Something I've been thinking for a while; Is it truly in Riot's best interest to make the game balanced?

As far as business is concerned, it'd be a poor move as it could easily stagnate the game. Congrats, the game reached perfection. What next? What do people have to look forward to?

It's a rather crude summary, but I honestly don't think Riot WANTS the utopian "perfect" league

Blue Mystified2 votes

{quoted}

Something I've been thinking for a while; Is it truly in Riot's best interest to make the game balanced?

As far as business is concerned, it'd be a poor move as it could easily stagnate the game. Congrats, the game reached perfection. What next? What do people have to look forward to?

It's a rather crude summary, but I honestly don't think Riot WANTS the utopian "perfect" league

you're half right. The other half is that they're always going to be making new champs and items just for the sake of newness, and even if the rest of the game is balanced, those new things won't be, so there's always going to be a conflict that generates attention and interest.

Divewing3 votes

Yeah...

To be totally honest I'm actually ok with that. Just wish they would do big meta change from this whole early game thing... It's really been the least enjoyable meta I've played in

AirKingNeo25 votes

That's a large difference between horridly unbalanced and perfect slight imbalance.

Divewing3 votes

There is, but this was a rather vague point to begin with.

I don't even have any proof that Riot themselves are operating in such a manner, it's entirely speculation on my part, so you'll have to forgive the extreme examples. It's to make my point easier to understand

I Main Swain1 votes

well in all honesty whether or not they want league to be perfectly balanced (which they wouldnt for the very reason you said) is irrelevant because its not possible to have it in perfect balance. not while human factors exist

TheSingularity7 votes

if the game if perfectly balanced, everything is equally viable.

People leave when the thing they love to play, and the way they love to play it is no longer enjoyable. Eg this meta, I hate it, nothing is fun for me so I ceased playing. Take me back to s4 and I'd play 5 games a day.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Chess is a perfect balanced game, honed to perfection of the course of thousands of years. It's also quite often very...simple in metagame. The strategies are honed to perfection because chess doesn't change. The complexity of chess usually boils down to if they're using X or Y strategy.

The analogy I'm making here is that for Riot to perfectly balance league, they'd have to stop working on it. No new champs, items, reworks, etc. From there, they can hone and fine-tune the balance until it's completely perfect. Despite how the boards screeches everytime anyone gets even a remotely new skill, this would basically kill the game and many would stop playing. Even more-so than OP's weird claim that League is turning into HotS. (Most MOBAs started borrowing the talent-system from HotS. Even DOTA, one of the most fine-tuned balanced games in the world).

The thing is you can never have a perfectly balanced game unless the game never gets anything new. The most you can hope for is a well-balanced game. It's not in Riot's interest to do that, however, because it'd absolutely kill the playerbase.

Starcraft243ver2 votes

Sc1 reached perfection, it still has a larger fanbase than starcraft 2 which was close to be balanced but in an unfunny way.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

They already aren't striving for balance. They SAY they are, but if you look at the last couple of seasons, they've been buffing/nerfing different classes in and out of meta, too much so for it to just be slight over-buffs or such.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

This. If the game were perfectly balanced then scrubs would lose 90% of the excuses they used to be able to make when they lose. kappa

Blåbæret10 votes

Riot doesn't admit mistakes: They'd rather implement a new change and throw 10000000000000 band-aid fixes at it instead of just reverting. That's Rito in a nutshell - keep on digging an ever bigger shithole for yourself.

Blakiepug3 votes

{quoted}

Riot doesn't admit mistakes: They'd rather implement a new change and throw 10000000000000 band-aid fixes at it instead of just reverting. That's Rito in a nutshell - keep on digging an ever bigger shithole for yourself.

AKA Rengar

Catastrophic3 votes

New rengar is better than old rengar. But they're both horrible.

dominusx1 votes

new rengar takes absolutely no skill. Old rengar at least took a pretty neat combo to 100-0. But oh well toxic we dont need champs doing a lot of actions in their combo thats why we let mousebutton 2 champs strong and call them fine. pfft silver community

Dengeden8 votes

They. Did. Nerf. Censer. You...

You could simply work on Supports and attempt to give them stronger identities if they aren't performing well without these statstick-support-items.

Despite the fact that the majority of complaints you people leveled at supports were "they can't get to 6 items" and "they're always underleveled", you know things that would improve their statstick qualities.

And the what the heck does "stronger" identity even mean? That's just another "hurr durr I'm smarter than Riot why don't they do this simple thing that I won't elaborate on because it's not actually simple or clearly defined".

But ignoring the glaring issues in favor of trying to make unhealthy changes function

Guess what, genius? That's never their intention. And sorry but gradually trying to fix something and even out balance is far better than catering to this forum's ridiculous anti-ADC bias. You know why? Because there's always going to be a playstyle that's quite obviously better than the other ones.

Zerenza5 votes

Support's did lack EXP and Gold but those problems were fixed MUCH MUCH earlier into the season, then they started buffing all the items, adding more items, giving them more stats ect, that's when it became to much.

Stronger identity means that a support is more than the sum of their parts, or, in this case, their items. A champions items should not define the champion, what makes support so boring is the lack of impact, the lack of fun gameplay and the lack of champion pool. Many newer supports such as Braum, Bard, Rakan, Tahm Kench, and Thresh fix these problems, their fun, they have impactful kits and each one of the champions is different than the other while also not relying on the exact same build path because they don't need it to be useful like the other supports in the game.

There is no bias to ADC's, they're just busted right now because supports are busted, the support itemization is way to powerful and the champion pool needs to be adjusted to make them more fun and impactful instead of giving them items that do that instead.

TLDR: Support's shouldn't base their usefulness on the items they get but on the kit's they have, like every other champion in the game.

Dengeden1 votes

Lack of impact? Really? That's still a thing people think? Do you have any notion of how impactful vision is, for one?

I will contend that Censer is a pretty boring item (to play against) but enchanters/non-engage supports have always had the inherent problem that they can react to any situation. They have to be numerically weak to make up for that.

I'd also appreciate it if you didn't imply the champion pool could be deepened with such ease.

They are busted because they dare contend with highwinrate champions? Of course...

Zerenza2 votes

Yes, Lack of Impact. As in, lack of ability to have any definitive impact on the game aside from being a healbot, meat shield or ward. Rakan for example, impactful, playmaking potential, more than any of those things. Soraka? Not so much.

Ardent sensor is a point and click steroid for your ADC along with a heal, it's boring, where's the skill expression? You just use it to buff your ADC while you sit there and heal/shield them. The ADC is doing all the work there, no skill expression, skill expression should be just as important for supports as it is for everyone else.

They're busted because their item's are too strong when combined with outdated, easy to use mechanics that allow for way to much safety for little to no cost.

Dengeden1 votes

Ok then. ADCs are DPSbots, mages are waveclear/AoEbots, tanks are engage/CCbots. Look at me giving meaningless titles to champions. Raka gradually wins lane and has to survive, Rakan engages. This dualism is most strongly expressed in Raka but has existed since always.

The skill expression is you surviving and being at the right place at the right time. Even if it mostly exists as an empowered fantasy.

Also, I encourage you to play ADCs and enjoy your losses. But oh, it must be because of those 4man dives, right? Or whatever arbitrary excuse you'll make to continue calling them easy.

Zerenza1 votes

"Raka gradually wins lane and has to survive." uhm....i'm sorry but isn't that true for every champion? Playing safely and trying not to die is something EVERYONE has to do, not just heal bot supports.

Skill expression isn't surviving and being at the right place at the right time, everyone has to do be able to do that, it's a League skill that everyone needs to learn, it's not just for supports.

The healbot supports are easier to play than the other support's, no if's and's or but's about it. Annie is an easier mage to play in mid lane, in every role champions are easy. But just because a champion is easy doesn't mean they should lack skill expression, prime example Warwick he's easy but if your good at warwick and your good at league, it definitely shows. Soraka? That's not the case, i could go watch a bronze Soraka main play Soraka and her mechanics with the champion would be exactly the same as a Diamond Soraka, but outside of champion mechanics her overall league mechanics would be obviously worse. Soraka doesn't require much skill in terms of mechanical use, and there isn't much of a difference in champion mechanics from ELO to ELO, because the champion has no real skill expression in the first place. Any ammount of skill shown by the soraka is their skill with Game Mechanics, not Champion Mechanics because of the blatant lack of them in soraka's kit.

Dengeden1 votes

It's almost like there are degrees to how much one has to do something. Surviving and being at the right place is dependent on your range and how squishy you are. Champion and game mechanics mold together in that regard.

Sure, heal supports are easy when the meta favors them but boy oh boy, when engage supports are favored... "One Thresh hook and the game is decided! WTF Riot?!"

The fact that successful champions have "easy" mechanics is just how it is. When Soraka is good, her heals are easily applied and the health cost and delay is secondary. When she's bad, her Q and E are easily dodged and her W isn't worth the downsides.

Athenes Lulu5 votes

"Hey, Lulu has a waveclear so good that we should nerf it!"

"How should we do it? Just make her Q deal less damage to minions?"

"Naw dude that's too simple, make it so that everything behind the first target takes less damage!"

"But won't it fuck over her ADCs who are trying to farm?"

"Who?"

This is when you know you should just manage your expectations because they never take shit the simple way. Nothing new to see here, sadly.

sketchy14 votes

they intentionally make champs broken, in order to attract new players. the easier the 1v5 ace, the more people get attracted to the game

Pierce The Veal4 votes

{quoted}

You could nerf Ardent/give it a simple niche and accept the fact that having supports beef up carries (with items AS WELL AS THEIR KITS) that should have to wait out and work for their items isn't the healthiest design, and only aids power creep & covering hypercarries' weaknesses. You could simply work on Supports and attempt to give them stronger identities if they aren't performing well without these statstick-support-items.

You could buff turrets in SOME fucking manner, but god forbid we have even slightly longer games on average despite the inclusion of all things turret-smashing; despite turning League into a HoTS clone will destroy it as well as drive people away. If they wanted HoTS, they'd go play HoTS.

YOU COULD accept the fact that SOME THINGS just DON'T work out very well, and the best way to handle that IS NOT to throw an entire box of band-aids on the game to try and MAKE it work.

  • inb4 someone drops in, "BURTBURTBUTTT BALANCE ISN'T SIMPLE!" I acknowledge this. But ignoring the glaring issues in favor of trying to make unhealthy changes function isn't exactly a great idea nor one that leads to making the balancing any less difficult.

TO CLARIFY: I do not have an issue with hypercarries in and of themselves. Used them to help make my point regarding the current state of Support Itemization.

Unfortunately it seems Riot thinks taking steps back, i.e. reversing changes, is regressive and therefore bad. Instead of taking back their mistakes with one step back, they'd rather try to fix it with 5+ steps forward.

Their game balance philosophy is flawed unfortunately.

AirKingNeo3 votes

Balance is pretty simple once you grasp the basic concepts of the game, which most people haven't so we get Janna buffed and compensation buffs everywhere. Also Sterak's gets an 800 gold compensation nerf (on the PBE).

EinarUlfar3 votes

Relatively simple, yeah. I just doubt Riot's ability to grasp the ripple effects of their .. odd decisions.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Even I understand the ripple effect, but maybe they think it too complicated. Matchups and counter matchups shouldn't be the basis of the game.

Lets say you buff every mage item that sucks. Well mages would be pretty broken unless Morello was toned down a bit, so you nerf Morello.

GrReaper961 votes

600 gold. Pretty steep but its worth the stats it gain.

Microsoft Office3 votes

All I do is looking at this post and its replies while knowing this discussion is absolutely pointless.. It'll end up lost in the forums archives without ever being taken under consideration because RIOT has proven, patch by patch, that they don't give a hammered shit about the player's opinions on SMALL matters such as champion-item tuning and the problems they create. Instead they do whatever the fuck they believe is right and you gotta just suck it up unless a PRO SERIES player calls their game for bullshit.. Or they just create problems in order to have something to fix later on idk this is beyond me...

Nymzo2 votes

Aka not changing item 3301

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

Buffing turrets means you get longer games, sure. There are a lot more factors to consider. Stronger turrets decrease the succes of early game dives, slowing lane snowball, and reducing the power of early game champions. Stronger turrets make splitpushers better, increasing the use of the strategy. Stronger turrets also increase the effectiveness of turteling strategies, increasing the use of this strategy. So, with stronger turrets, games start rolling slower, winning lane is much harder, Trynd is meta, and sitting under a turret and farming for the midgame is a legitamate strat.

EinarUlfar1 votes

You're correct. And I definitely don't want a massive sway in the opposite direction.

Do you feel there's a reality where the turrets aren't as flimsy, but aren't bolstered to extremes that lead to that sort of situation?

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

Not really. If I do think of something, I'll get back to you.

GrReaper963 votes

Actually, none of those sound bad. Sure, if all of those became extremely important it could spell for the worse, but a slight shift towards the direction of all the things you stated is exactly what league needs

Leetri1 votes

I don't know, people complained a lot about games being Lux and Ziggs Waveclear Simulator 2017 with no way to take turrets.

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

And how would you accomplish this slight shift?

Xëmnas2 votes

Wait... So first OP complains about hypercarries, and then in LITERALLY THE NEXT PARAGRAPH, he says we should have longer games. Isn't that just playing into the hypercarry win condition? Kinda shooting yourself in the foot with that one, no? And yeah, sure lets just get rid of hypercarries because they take an eternity and four score more to come online, are mechanically the most intensive champs in the game, just because MUHHH TEAMMMM GET ACED BY THURRRR DMGGGGGG. Group, take towers, end the game > before 30 minutes. Pick strong waveclear. Literally so many shit that just stomps on those champs and comps that are the meta right now, and no one cares. It's just whine whine whine

EinarUlfar8 votes

You're missing the point completely. My issue isn't directly with hypercarries; as hypercarries have a pretty great life at the moment due to support itemization (not to mention the reduction of price in Zeal items for the crit users). Hypercarries in and of themselves aren't issues, nor did I ever directly say they were; don't pick a single term out of my post in an attempt to be a Boards-hero in the comments / farm upvotes.

My primary issue is with the overtuned Support items, and lack of desire to give the power to Support kits rather than items (easier to adjust in that sense, since not every champion has access to their kits as they do items).

The turret issue is due to the fact Riot continues to implement elements to tear down turrets, without even a sliver of compensation to the them; likely in hopes it will further reduce the average time of a game. I'd like a longer laning phase, to be more precise; potentially lower amounts of gold per kill to reduce snowball/fast acquisition of items over a small lead - as well as the possibility of not having an early SINGLE death cost the precious First Turret Blood.

And overall, my major issue and main point here is Riot has a very round-about way of approaching glaring issues in their game; whether they be from a direct change or due to a ripple effect of a change/adjustment in the past. Often not even touching on the issue they claimed they were attempting to adjust/fix.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

The bottom paragraph, give an example.

revliledpembroke2 votes

How about nerfing any champion who is "BROKEN OP AS FUCK," and then actually nerfing the item that made said champion OP, and then never buffing the champion back up to a healthy state?

I've certainly heard about things like that. Sejuani-ing was at least one term for it, I think.

Or the old joke about nerfing oppressive Zed, so they removed 3 AD (or whatever it was). That was the source of many of videos of that Spanish speaking guy who never stops laughing, if memory serves.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Fair enough I actually dislike that.

chipndip11 votes

You can't just whine about hyper-carries, then whine about needing longer games. The point of tuning down game times was to add viability to non-hyper carry picks and lane bullies. If average game times lean back into 40 minutes, we'll be back to Renekton, Panth, and other early game picks being useless again.

Jayceonmyface1 votes

It's simple, Riot can't nerf correctly. If they would stop copying Dota maybe they could.

Mizaya1 votes

YOU COULD accept the fact that SOME THINGS just DON'T work out very well, and the best way to handle that IS NOT to throw an entire box of band-aids on the game to try and MAKE it work.

If you used making assassin/ juggernaut items melee only as an example you would have gotten downvoted lol

LankPants1 votes

YOU COULD accept the fact that SOME THINGS just DON'T work out very well, and the best way to handle that IS NOT to throw an entire box of band-aids on the game to try and MAKE it work.

RIP Sejuani

Standgrounding1 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Ya7iN0y5-can-we-move-crit-from-adc-items-to-towers

The only possible way at this point...

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