Its honestly ridiculous how quickly your HP gets chunked with this item that costs only 2600 gold. On top the fact that the wave clear with it is way too good. I think lowering the stats it provides and then increasing the cost would be a good start.
PopcornBunni38 votesDon't forget it turns ADCs into mixed damage threats as well.
Sugar Momma21 votesShiv's damage really should be changed to physical damage so it's easier to itemize against marksmen.
Mages don't get any items which deal physical damage to enemies.
Pierce The Veal19 votes[{quoted}](name=Sugar Momma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a9B3504A,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-03-01T09:20:48.189+0000)
Shiv's damage really should be changed to physical damage so it's easier to itemize against marksmen.
Mages don't get any items which deal physical damage to enemies.
Lich bane used to do 100% of your ap as physical damage after casting a spell. It got changed because it made mages that can use it impossible to itemize against. Nowadays we have statikk shiv...
Tin of sardines1 votestaking about itemizing:
makes build health not a good choice.
makes build health less good and build armour even less good.
and 
makes building magic resist something to consider.
that said, tank are op, until they aren't.
Pika Fox1 votesIt being magical is worse for them, as minor amounts of MR (which most champs are going to get anyway) is going to reduce its damage, and an ADC isnt going to run spellpen boots/morello/void just for shiv.
It would only be beneficial if its damage didnt come into play 20 mins into the game. The dual stats damage is really only an issue during laning.
PopcornBunni5 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a9B3504A,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-03-01T17:08:41.148+0000)
It being magical is worse for them, as minor amounts of MR (which most champs are going to get anyway) is going to reduce its damage, and an ADC isnt going to run spellpen boots/morello/void just for shiv.
It would only be beneficial if its damage didnt come into play 20 mins into the game. The dual stats damage is really only an issue during laning.
And what would the "minor amounts" of armor (Which champions, especially tanks, have more of) do if it dealt its damage as physical?
Hmmmmmm
[sg-lux-2]
Marshbouy34 votesIMO the worst part about it is how it can either deal 100 damage or 250 b/c "crit chance lol"
PB4UAME19 votesUh, I think its a little stronger than that, bud. It's passive reads: "Your next basic attack (on-hit) sparks lightning to up to 5 nearby units, dealing 60 - 160 (based on level) bonus magic damage, increased to 99 - 264 (based on level) against minions" *2.5 for up to 400 damage to champions and 660 to minions, or 160% to 264% as strong as you thought against champions and minions respectively.
Nothing like a free 2k damage in a teamfight off a single item proc from ranged that cannot miss, for only 2,600 gold, along with also giving: +35% attack speed +30% critical strike chance +5% movement speed
ChaddyFantome2 votesUh, I think its a little stronger than that, bud. It's passive reads: "Your next basic attack (on-hit) sparks lightning to up to 5 nearby units, dealing 60 - 160 (based on level) bonus magic damage, increased to 99 - 264 (based on level) against minions" *2.5 for up to 400 damage to champions and 660 to minions, or 160% to 264% as strong as you thought against champions and minions respectively.
Nothing like a free 2k damage in a teamfight off a single item proc from ranged that cannot miss, for only 2,600 gold, along with also giving: +35% attack speed +30% critical strike chance +5% movement speed
AND it can crit
And thats B4 
comes into play.
Marshbouy2 votesI'm speaking in reference to laning phase. I dislike how it can single handedly win trades and greatly sway kill pressure because "lel RNG"
Pika Fox1 votesIts like that so shivs power can be reduced and strengthened with more item purchases, making it a terrible 1 item effect, but a good 3 item effect.
MuffledGarbage6 voteswhat?
Shiv is an insane power-spike on the levels of 
and in certain cases
The item only STARTS as good as those items and gets BETTER with more purchases If Shiv started worse than those items and scaled to be better AFTER 3 items, like you said, then it would undoubtedly be more balanced As of right now, right here, in this patch, Shiv is not balanced in any way/shape or form
Pika Fox1 votesNo. Shiv is nowhere near the spike levels of BC and trinity. Titanic and duskblade, on their own, maybe, but not really. Titanic is an auto reset, and on any champ who wants it the amount they get from an auto reset is insane, and duskblade gives AD, which will do more for when you get it than shiv.
Shiv simply is not good until 2-3 items deep into the build. ADCs arent good until 2-3 items into their build in general.
MuffledGarbage1 votesShiv gives a minimum of 60+ AD(+possible crit chance) at around level 6-8-ish is when Shiv would be finished
This means around 70 AD extra damage(possibly more from different ADC+runeset damages)
This makes around 150 MINIMUM mixed damage
Assuming that Shiv crits that bumps up to 300 minimum mixed damage
300 damage on an RNG chance for damage is EASILY comparable to the 150-200 damage boosts from 
and which all, mind you, cost MORE and deal LESS THAN, IF NOT EQUAL TO the amount of damage that Shiv does
Pika Fox1 votesShiv gives 0 AD, and overblows your AS until you finish your AD item (you should have a BFS already).
Its also only one proc per fight, generally, early game.
Triforce gives far better stats, and sheen will deal far more on its own than shiv.
Titanic is a terrible first buy, same as shiv being a meh first buy active.
Cleaver gives 20% CDR and shreds armor. On the champions that rush it, it will do far more work than just shiv.
Seriously, if you think shiv does more than TRIFORCE, i cant help you. You are beyond reason.
MuffledGarbage1 votesSheen won't be procing faster than what Shiv will for the majority of 20 minute games and for the majority of 40+ minute games.
Shiv's 0 AD doesn't magically make it not overpowered.
Earlygame, Shiv can deal up to 300 mixed damage before Armor/MR.
Trinity takes longer to buy, RARELY will ever proc for equal DPS to Shiv(Only Nasus and Yorick can reach the same DPS), is at a static damage amount(will never change),doesn't cover any weaknesses whatsoever, and Trinity isn't going to get much better than what it is after it's been bought
Shiv takes 1/2 of the time Trinity does to buy, can be procced more often, almost never falls off, has more DPS AND burst lategame than Trinity does, Has more burst than Trinity earlygame, has a change-able damage amount, will ALWAYS get better after other items are bought to help it out, AND covers ADCs weaknesses
How is this fair?
one of the main weaknesses of ADCs should inherently be waveclear because if that isn't an inherent weakness then ADCs will be able to do everything and therefore will not have a single strategic niche
Riot has circumvented this by allowing ADCs to have Stattik Shiv
Okay so Riot wants to give some ADCs waveclear... but then why does Shiv does equal/more burst damage than Trinity does from the early-midgame?
That would only mean that Riot wants ADCs to out-burst the champs who buy Trinity force...
Shiv also does more DPS than Trinity(again exceptions being Nasus and Yorick) which leads to a huge problem...
If I can get all the burst I want from Trinity but then decide to instead opt for Shiv... the only thing I lose out on is some mana and health
The health can be solved for with lifesteal and the mana can be solved with Essence Reaver
This means that ADCs can, if they so choose, have no weaknesses except for what is inherently in their kit, and Assassins(Plus the Assassins have to work three times as hard to do the same burst that most ADCs can get in 3-4 basic attacks from 10 minutes into 40+ minutes)
This makes ADCs a game-warping class that should NOT be as powerful as they currently are...
Pika Fox1 votesAgain, you make your entire post moot because you think trinity does less than shiv. Trinity has a 2s CD. The idea that you wont get better DPS out of trinity is insane, and so provably false that it makes any argument you try to make null. Shiv will never deal the damage trinity will. Theres a reason Ezreal goes Trinity and not Shiv first item (when going damage).
MuffledGarbage1 votesGj ignoring the rest of my arguments and then "calling me out" for saying a true statement that you refuse to believe
Pika Fox1 votesSheen alone out DPSs shiv on proc. The simple fact that its on a 2s CD vs a 10-15 second CD, if not higher, is more than enough for it to out damage shiv. By leaps and bounds.
Again, if shiv proc really did more work than sheen/TF, Ezreal wouldnt first buy sheen into IBG or Tri. Hed go Shiv.
Its clear that youre dead set on comparing a weak shiv proc with no other items to literally one of the best single items in the game and think it somehow does more damage.
Your argument has no merit to it. You cant expect me to take you seriously when you think you can compare these items in honesty, let alone when you state something as wrong as "shiv out damages triforce"
Tin of sardines1 votes300 damage on an RNG chance for damage is EASILY comparable to the 150-200 damage boosts from and which all, mind you, cost MORE and deal LESS THAN, IF NOT EQUAL TO the amount of damage that Shiv does
if you got the right number on the RNG.
MuffledGarbage1 votesWhich is still unhealthy for design choices...
At least it's possible to KNOW how much an Assassin will mangle a Mage up after
At least the damage from any non-crit source in league is consistent and predictable in some fashion
Crit is entirely out of players hands on whether it impacts a fight or not
This in turn can lead to an item like Shiv being more stat efficient than higher cost items for 90% of a game just because crits just so happened to impact the right fight VS Trinity force being unable to have any un-predictability with it's usage on a character(they use a spell and ALWAYS get the extra damage on basic attack)
Teridax6817 votesI personally feel like absolutely no component to marksman itemization should provide upfront burst at all. Marksmen as a class are meant to specialize in DPS, not burst damage, and I would rather they had more items that provided persistent damage instead, with specific kits providing innate burst as needed. Because of this, I don't think it's necessary for marksmen to have a) burst damage that can exceed even Duskblade's on-hit damage (an IE-enhanced crit can make Statikk deal up to 400 damage on its own, compared to Duskblade's 320 damage for melee champions), which is also b) applicable to multiple targets at a time, including at poke distances, c) reusable multiple times per fight just by fighting normally, and d) cheaper than Duskblade, while e) providing a whole bunch of other stats that cause marksmen to scale harder.
Because energized attacks are front-loaded by nature (you build up towards a first-attack advantage in combat), any sort of damage attached to it will always increase the potential for marksmen to deal front-loaded burst. To resolve this, I think it might be better if Kircheis Shard and its upgrades only damaged non-champions: if Statikk were a premium waveclear option, rather than a waveclear/burst/poke monstrosity, it would fit a much clearer purpose and allow marksmen to become healthier overall. Similarly, if Rapid Firecannon allowed the player to siege turrets specifically, without necessarily bleeding over into more poke for marksmen, it would also become much better at fulfilling its niche, and could stack with Shiv without causing any real problems, at least not when fighting enemy champions. This could also help differentiate Zeal items better by having them all provide some kind of utility that doesn't necessarily translate to more damage in duels, and could give marksmen better options to cover up something they're innately weak at: a pure waveclear Shiv could be good for marksmen like Vayne, who lack innate waveclear, whereas RFC could be good on marksmen who are too short-ranged or vulnerable to siege properly (e.g. Vayne, but also Quinn, Draven or Lucian). Meanwhile, PD would remain a good defensive option for skirmishing duelists, and Runaan's could be emphasized as a teamfighting item, rather than a multi-target/waveclear combo, if its secondary bolts only targeted champions but dealt more damage.
Child of the Pit12 votesI don't see the sense, it would make more sense if Shiv does less dmg than and has the waveclear instead, but no, the only benefit you gain from Rapidfire right now is that one long range auto atack, while Shiv is both doing more damage, and giving better waveclear, it is just stupid if you ask me...
Jesus is Savior8 votes[{quoted}](name=Child of the Pit,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a9B3504A,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-03-01T15:32:23.882+0000)
the only benefit you gain from Rapidfire right now
-> Can be used on structures -> Makes ALL your energized attacks (including fleet footwork) generate stacks 25% faster
Child of the Pit5 votesIt is still rather meh, considering fleet footwork is the only other energize besides Rapidfire itself, and fleet footwork is more of a lane sustain rune, not to mention the damage on structures isn't that great or significant, in the end it all boils down to what can deal the most damage and be the most efficient item.
Rapidfire can
Generate itself and fleet footwork faster ( i don't count Shiv in because who buys Shiv and Rapidfire together?'' Do 60+(scalling with level) dmg to a tower or a single enemy target Give one longer range auto atack
So good in early game, but becomes rather meh in late game
Meanwhile shiv can
Do immense amount of damages in a teamfight Give an champion the ability to splitpush really fast give an champion the ability to burst down even heavier when criting give overall more single target burst value than the item that gives single target burst
I mean i see where you are coming from, but you have to admit Rapidfire is really lackluster compared to Shiv no?
Jesus is Savior3 votes[{quoted}](name=Child of the Pit,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a9B3504A,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2018-03-01T15:49:44.447+0000)
It is still rather meh, considering fleet footwork is the only other energize besides Rapidfire itself, and fleet footwork is more of a lane sustain rune, not to mention the damage on structures isn't that great or significant, in the end it all boils down to what can deal the most damage and be the most efficient item.
Rapidfire can
So good in early game, but becomes rather meh in late game
Meanwhile shiv can
I mean i see where you are coming from, but you have to admit Rapidfire is really lackluster compared to Shiv no?
And as a dueling item, shiv is lackluster compared to PD.
They all have their niche.
SpecterVonBaren3 votesThe issue is that Shiv is better at RFC's niche while also having its own.
GrReaper963 votesHence a huge problem arises from buying both to overcome their flaws
Pika Fox2 votesThe bonus range is pretty massive for high level play.
Child of the Pit2 votesI don't watch high level play, or any eSports, but i can gues how this would work.
However at my MMR there is no point in buying Rapidfire over Shiv, it isn't the greatest elo i admit, but im mainly discussing with numbers and benefits in here as with actuall gameplay.
But yeah i can see how it would work out in coordinated combs, however in normal community games, this item migth be extraordinary useless right now.
Chromatic Eagle7 votesWhy increase its cost if you want its stats lowered as well? Since it's intended to be a wave clearing tool, why not keep its damage to minions, but reduce its damage to champions?
Blåbæret6 votesWhy should ADCs have wave clear? Give mages a high DPS item then.
AirKingNeo7 votesThey do. They're called: Nashor's Tooth, Spellbinder, and Liandyr's Torment.
Shockingly, if you're DPS AP champion, you're buying 2 of these 3 items.
INT then ULT2 votesUhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
AirKingNeo2 votesTake Spellbinder and Liandyrs. Spellbinder lets you burst squishies.
INT then ULT3 votesMy typical build order is mpen orb > tear > sorc boots > archangels > morello > void staff. I burst squishies anyway.
GrReaper962 votes
is already the perfect waveclear item for ADCs. Shiv is just to AOE burst em
Chromatic Eagle1 votesI thought that was the aoe team fight item?
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesRunaan's is terrible for waveclear. The bolts more often go to melees than casters. Unless you wanna sit behind their wave, in which case you're just begging for their assassins to 4v1 you.
Shiv is far more reliable for waveclear, since it prioritizes targets closer to your primary target, instead of closer to you.
GrReaper961 votesYeah perfect was the wrong word, should of said appropriate. 1-shotting the entire minion wave is far less healthier than attacking multiples times like an ADC should do
Moonfall Saber5 votesIt's better than ludens
LemurKick3 votesI think the issue is how the magic damage can crit on champions. combined with IE, it's simply doing too much damage.
AirKingNeo1 votesMake it a modified Crit for 50% more damage, not 100% (75%/150% with IE).
Done253 votesThe proc crit component just need to be outright removed. It literally has no good reason to be on there. It's literally the only on hit effect that can crit.
kiri20002 votesImo crit damage should be reduced by 25%, or even 30%, this way most ad carries won't be reliant on crit chance, and it would bring you the choice to go more into crit, to go more into damage or to go more into lifesteal, based on the situation. The big problem is that atm crit by itself, without any damage items can deal more damage than a full lethality build.
PopcornBunni3 votesImo crit damage should be reduced by 25%, or even 30%, this way most ad carries won't be reliant on crit chance, and it would bring you the choice to go more into crit, to go more into damage or to go more into lifesteal, based on the situation. The big problem is that atm crit by itself, without any damage items can deal more damage than a full lethality build.
I think crit damage should be an individual stat for each champion. The dueling shorter ranged marksmen like 
are fine with the more damaging crits, but ones like the 1v5ing 
or one-shotting 
could have weaker crits.
In addition, have crits work by building up a hidden meter on a target until that meter reaches 100%, resulting in a critical strike. This would still result in the same number of crits in a drawn out fight as the streak-protection forced % crits currently, without the influence of random lucky first hit crits adding burst damage.
would need a rework under this paradigm of course, but even something like increasing its damage by a raw amount by your crititical strike modifiers could work. This would be in addition to changing energized strikes to physical damage and lowering its damage to champions while raising its damage to non-champions to compensate. It's meant to be the waveclear option over 's poke, and shifting its power to that job would be a perfectly reasonable decision.
Kyovulpes3 votesIf I may on Jhin the thing with Jhins Crit Dmg is that the fourth shot in particular does more dmg on missing health. Essentially like 
old W where fighting him longer became more dangerous. Jhin in general has weaker "Crits" but it is modified by the massive amount of utility in things like movement speed. Which Is why most Jhins optimize for more flat AD+pen compared to crit tho. But more so the runes more so screw him over more than other ADs which is why he is considered to be in a bad spot right now along with the other caster ADCs like my wifu . V.V
Edit:Which is why hypercarries are quite out of line imo the cost of crit+the continuous direct/indirect Nerf of Castor ADCs means only hyper carries can check other hyper carries. And give HYPER carries gold and well....here's our meta today.
PopcornBunni5 votesIf I may on Jhin the thing with Jhins Crit Dmg is that the fourth shot in particular does more dmg on missing health. Essentially like
Fortune was completely busted at the start of the year. What's odd is usually her being busted comes with the other lethality ADs also being busted -- 
. Instead she rode along with 
on the aery/klepto/comet train.
Kyovulpes1 votesTrue it's also but guess who boards wasn't complaining about at the time cough #bringbacklanebullies2018
Modl Ryden l2 votesThey oughta make it so there are better options than crit builds. I'm liking the onhit builds but it's so niche to and 
.
