Boards›Gameplay

How come Nidalee can heal point click for half her damn HP and Bard's heal does jack?

LegitBacon66··174 votes·8,116 views

How can that be possible? Nidalee is already one of those champions difficult to deal with and she has a point click heal that heals a set HP + 50% of her ability power. I can guarantee no one wants to wait for Bard's health pack to "Empower" to get a better heal, they want it now and quick. Not only to mention she increases the attack speed of the someone to?

Meanwhile Bard here has jack for scaling and less bonus ability power. BETTER yet he has to place a HP pack and someone has to WAIT for the empower to get more HP or just go with the other one that doesn't heal at all >->. No matter where you place the HP pack before hand in a fight, it almost never works out because your team doesn't know where it is. The best part of all of this Nidalee's heal costs less mana and Bard's start out with 100 mana at level 1 and scales up to 120? Yeah Nidalee's does the same, but hers heals more!

Fan-freaking-tastic. Buff bard's heal please. Thank you for your time.

167 Comments

BigDumbSmartGuy63 votes

Because when Riot designs a champion they have this weird habit of not comparing them to any other champion currently released.

biomaster24 votes

probably why shens shield scales less then rivens >_>

Penta Penguin3 votes

Yeah perfect dude... Give Shen a bigger shield than a fighter... because he needs it. Stacking armor/mr/HP on Shen, just double his shield, totally balanced.

Someone like Riven who doesn't really get to build defense needs a larger shield. Watching Boxbox on youtube isn't proof she's OP

LeeDark17 votes

Are you really arguing that Shen is more oppressive than Riven? I mean... REALLY?

ArithianFlame5 votes

No. He's arguing that a shield that scales off of defense, on a champion that builds only defense, would make him oppressive. You should try reading the comment next time.

Jalkan10 votes

Yet Riven has an AD shield.

Zair Umbras1 votes

Yes, a 1-1 shield on a 6s CD that lasts for 1.5s while Shen's is a .6x AP shield that has a 5s CD and lasts for 3 seconds. Base-wise, Shen's is also a 220 while Riven's is a 210. Honestly, if you snagged any kind of AP item on Shen, it'd make his shield on his W and R block a lot. It's not all that bad to snag a Rylai's or Abyssal on him. Boosts his shield by 60 with Rylai's, by 42 with the Abyssal. His R gets 135 from Rylai's and 94.5 from Abyssal. Both give him defense and help boost his damage slightly while also providing a slightly bigger shield on a friendly.

You'd honestly be surprised how well an AP Bruiser Shen can tank and dish out damage.

Gin no Nekomata3 votes

Unlike Riven, Shen can't spam his shield without going OOE immediately though.

Zair Umbras1 votes

Shen can spam his shield without running out of energy actually. The shield is 5s CD and he regens 10 per sec plus also gains 30 energy when his passive procs and his AA's shorten the time on his 9s CD. He also attacks about 1 per sec with the shield making AA's do 2s reduction rather than 1. With 40% CDR if you choose to get it, his W has a 3s CD. Timing your shield prior to an AA that's not a Ki Strike one you'll get at least 4s knocked off in that 3s, bring the CD down to 5s. If you manage to get 2 AA's through, you could get 5s knocked off, meaning you'd Ki Strike 1s after your sheild drops, which would maintain your Energy with 70 energy every 4s when you're consuming 50 every 3. That's just to maintain it though. With other abilities, you could go OOE, but your shield is for immediate deflection or to increase his damage output via his Ki Strike. You're not going to be walking around spamming it just like a Riven wouldn't unless she wanted to get rekt when her shield is on CD. lol.

Red Frostraven1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=31xetEBM,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-05-30T07:27:58.500+0000)

Yes, a 1-1 shield on a 6s CD that lasts for 1.5s while Shen's is a .6x AP shield that has a 5s CD and lasts for 3 seconds. Base-wise, Shen's is also a 220 while Riven's is a 210. Honestly, if you snagged any kind of AP item on Shen, it'd make his shield on his W and R block a lot. It's not all that bad to snag a Rylai's or Abyssal on him. Boosts his shield by 60 with Rylai's, by 42 with the Abyssal. His R gets 135 from Rylai's and 94.5 from Abyssal. Both give him defense and help boost his damage slightly while also providing a slightly bigger shield on a friendly.

You'd honestly be surprised how well an AP Bruiser Shen can tank and dish out damage.

Who wins a 1 vs 1 melee: A fed Riven or a fed Shen?

Zair Umbras1 votes

Fed Riven has 4 items. Fed Shen has 6 'cause tank items and tanky AP items are more gold efficient and cheaper in general. Plus the fact that Shen with a TM and a Visage can stand there and 1v1 most champions.

Joe Dredd6 votes

There's also the part where the community doesn't compare the rest of their kits either (^:

Dragonface18 votes

Not saying Bard isn't underpowered as a support, HOWEVER, his heal can be better in ways than Nids, as Bard can leave and still be able to heal a teammate. Now this doesn't at all change the fact that he's still just a little too weak right now, but he does have some utility that Nid doesn't have.

BADxW0LF5 votes

Too add on to this, his health packs also give a MS boost and he can have more than 1 down at a time to be used whenever you want rather than a point-and-click and then wait for the CD. This is especially helpful early game and when doing dragon. Early game, always start w and lay 2 health packs for your jungler to help with jungle clear and to maybe get that earlier gank off. Drag and baron, lay 1 before starting and someone who needs it can take it if they want.

Sinister Anubis13 votes

{quoted}

How can that be possible? Nidalee is already one of those champions difficult to deal with and she has a point click heal that heals a set HP + 50% of her ability power. I can guarantee no one wants to wait for Bard's health pack to "Empower" to get a better heal, they want it now and quick. Not only to mention she increases the attack speed of the someone to?

Meanwhile Bard here has jack for scaling and less bonus ability power. BETTER yet he has to place a HP pack and someone has to WAIT for the empower to get more HP or just go with the other one that doesn't heal at all >->. No matter where you place the HP pack before hand in a fight, it almost never works out because your team doesn't know where it is. The best part of all of this Nidalee's heal costs less mana and Bard's start out with 100 mana at level 1 and scales up to 120? Yeah Nidalee's does the same, but hers heals more!

Fan-freaking-tastic. Buff bard's heal please. Thank you for your time.

My beef that you have to wait for bards heal to bloom before it heals and nidalees is a instant burst heal. Kind of BS.

BADxW0LF2 votes

His packs also give MS boost.

EvilRabbitt5 votes

Not arguing either way BUT, Nidalee's heal gives an attack speed boost. Unless that got fixed....stealth changes and all...

Jungle Lux God1 votes

And in some cases the attack speed boost is more worthless than the healing portion of Bard's heal.

EvilRabbitt6 votes

Wiki gave me numbers:

Heal: 45 / 85 / 125 / 165 / 205 (+ 50% AP) 

Attack Speed: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60%

That's rather strong, especially combined with Janna's shield.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

It's strong, but is it useful?

AP's don't scale with attack speed. Imaging Nidalee healing someone like Lux or Brand or Malzahar or most of the other mages in the entire game, and it doesn't do jack shit for them because they don't scale with attack speed at all. Same with a lot of tanks and supports (including Bard!).

In these cases, Nidalee's attack speed buff is a lot less useful than Bard's heal. That's why I said that Nidalee's attack speed boost was more worthless in some cases than Bard's heal.

EvilRabbitt3 votes

Not in a solo environment, but in a fight with your adc or a kayle? Yes. Very muchly so yes. 60% for an adc is absolutely massive. I do agree they are situational. I just like to make sure everyone knows whats on the table when they talk. =) I'd personally pick Kayle over Bard. Point and click heal with a higher ratio.

OyddAWqJ5r12 votes

Bard really needs a % health heal for his. He isn't AP like Riot originally intended for him to be so he doesn't even utilize the small AP ratio that he has. He shifted to being played as a 100% utility support after people realized it was far better than AP but the only downside is that the heal needs AP to heal.

TL;DR Bard needs his heal to heal % health or have a higher base because his heal originally was meant to scale with the AP items that he doesn't build now.

Dr Poro1 votes

%hp would make the heal either too strong on tanks or too weak on carries. Making it scale of Bard's %hp wouldn't make sense as he's not a tanky support (and he shouldn't be). Raising the base stats is probably a good way to buff him, but I think Bard is in a good spot. Most of the Bards I saw lately are doing impressively well, and he's somewhere in the middle of the overall support rankings (9/23) although his winrate is rather low, but this is due to his high skill floor and skill cap. Bard will (should) never be a top solo queue champion because of his nature. He is all built around teamwork and coordination, which is by definition less present in soloQ compared to ranked 5v5 and competitive tournaments. Those who main Bard may shine, but he's never going to be freelo. (Comparable with Thresh who also has a low winrate, although Riot made Thresh too strong on release but after the nerfs, he also never was freelo except for those who mained them and play them well.)

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

%hp would make the heal either too strong on tanks or too weak on carries. Making it scale of Bard's %hp wouldn't make sense as he's not a tanky support (and he shouldn't be).

...You do realize there are tons of % health skills in the game right? All of which are balanced to a point where it's not too strong on/vs tanks and on/vs carries? That's like saying putting % health on an AD item would make it way too strong vs tanks and weak vs squishies but as we know BotRK is completely balanced.

And Bard IS a tanky support (and he should be). If you are playing as/with Bards that are squishy then those Bards are doing it wrong. With the items he typically builds he most definitely should be tanky.

SexyTaylorSwift10 votes

Because Bard is also really mobile, has an execute, and has a nuke. Oh wait....that's also Nid.

Narasimha8 votes

Because Bard's isn't meant to be an instant heal. Its meant to be a contingency, something dropped and left for later. And he can have 3 of those at once. Can Nidalee have 3 heals up at once?

Loken Stoneheart47 votes

{quoted}

Because Bard's isn't meant to be an instant heal. Its meant to be a contingency, something dropped and left for later. And he can have 3 of those at once. Can Nidalee have 3 heals up at once?

Can enemies step on Nidalee's tail to cancel her heals?

Narasimha8 votes

And there's your answer :D Apples and oranges.

NauticalNonsense9 votes

Nid heals more than all 3 relics in one spell.

JJI7444 votes

{quoted}

Nid heals more than all 3 relics in one spell.

Bard's relics actually heal for more,individually, up to the 500 AP mark, at which point Nid's better AP scaling makes hers take a slight lead.

Tilting in Bots12 votes

But that's actually an important note: Nidalee's heal scales off of AP, which she'll be putting all of her gold into THE ENTIRE GAME.

JJI74418 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jayce Spam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=31xetEBM,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-29T15:52:06.961+0000)

But that's actually an important note: Nidalee's heal scales off of AP, which she'll be putting all of her gold into THE ENTIRE GAME.

If your argument is "Bard's heal should be better than Nid's while Nid builds AP and Bard doesn't," then this is not a conversation worth having. Its roughly equal to complaining that people who build armor are harder to kill with physical damage.

LegitBacon662 votes

{quoted}

If your argument is "Bard's heal should be better than Nid's while Nid builds AP and Bard doesn't," then this is not a conversation worth having. Its roughly equal to complaining that people who build armor are harder to kill with physical damage.

What he is saying is that Bard doesn't build AP. Yet his heals do but they do nothing and AP bard is useless

EffectFX2 votes

230 base heal is pretty good for no AP.

purpletoweljh2 votes

every bard is useless, he doesn't scale tanky well or can use item 3302 and none of his spells help him be tanky, and has no capacity to do tank support stuff, but what would be nice is if a champ centered around utility could have a semi useful heal

Rabid Husky1 votes

item 3027 item 3116 item 3151item 3025 item 3092 item 3158 try it item 3069 also works if your laneing less and going for chimes or farther chimes than bot

purpletoweljh1 votes

these work ok but he can't overall get either damagey or tanky late game, not that building items doesn't help but they can't do enough to give him much usefulness as either. Bard's time is better spent getting chimes than getting gold

LeeDark2 votes

What's wrong with having spells that scale off of items you already want to build because of your role?

CupcakeTrap9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Loken Stoneheart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=31xetEBM,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-05-29T13:31:21.740+0000)

Can enemies step on Nidalee's tail to cancel her heals?

riot pls

And there needs to be a "MREEEEEOWWWR!" sound effect when that happens. For, uh, clarity purposes. I mean, she doesn't currently have a tail on Live when she's able to use her heal. So also give her a step-on-able tail in human form.

Good work, team. I expect to see these changes next patch, Riot.

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

This requires all the upvotes

Solidair37 votes

Well, Bard probably won't be building 700+AP as a support.

LegitBacon667 votes

{quoted}

Well, Bard probably won't be building 700+AP as a support.

Then his heal practically useless

idoki2 votes

No, it's part of the "leave-your-ADC-alone-with-some-health-packs-so-you-can-collect-chimes-and-roam-around-the-map-using-Magical-Journey-and-your-ultimate"-pratice

Red Frostraven1 votes

{quoted}

No, it's part of the "leave-your-ADC-alone-with-some-health-packs-so-you-can-collect-chimes-and-roam-around-the-map-using-Magical-Journey-and-your-ultimate"-pratice

Thanks for the two 40 healing packs, Bard! I love you so much! I needed those after the opponent Morgana shot me ONCE with her Q, dealing 120 damage to me, forcing me to flash to survive two morgana auto-attacks and a couple of shots from the opponent ADC..! Now, with the 80 healing and one health potion, I can sit behind the turret and collect half of the CS instead of porting back to the fountain to heal up! But, Bard... why didn't you just stay and help..?

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Frostraven,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=31xetEBM,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-29T19:34:27.650+0000)

Thanks for the two 40 healing packs, Bard! I love you so much! I needed those after the opponent Morgana shot me ONCE with her Q, dealing 120 damage to me, forcing me to flash to survive two morgana auto-attacks and a couple of shots from the opponent ADC..! Now, with the 80 healing and one health potion, I can sit behind the turret and collect half of the CS instead of porting back to the fountain to heal up! But, Bard... why didn't you just stay and help..?

MAXIMUM HEAL: 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 (+ 45% AP)

if Bard left those shrines that means that they will at bare minimum heal you by 70 HP not 40... he could also just put another point or two in it to increase how much you heal with them. If you get hit by a Morgana Q then Bard being there isn't going to be of much use unless he can actually manage to land a stun with his Q. How about you don't get hit by Morg's Q instead of QQing about Bard's not being in lane and his heal being low?

Rew7115 votes

I will say that heal is puny. I can lay all 3 heals down and if I were to let them all fully go through, then I may get a good 1/4 of my health back, unless I'm Bard then I get half of it back.

ZephyrDrake5 votes

because Nid actually builds AP... a lot of it while Bard when he does it isn't in any really significant amount?

CoolKnightST5 votes

What if whe reduce the buildup time from Bard Caretaker's Shrine when you rank it?:

#http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20150224202906/leagueoflegends/images/6/6c/Caretaker%27s_Shrine.png Caretaker's Shrine ACTIVE: Bard conjures a health shrine at the target location that builds up in power over 10 seconds 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 seconds. Bard can have up to 3 shrines active at once, which remain until visited by an ally or crushed by an enemy.

Allied champions who step over the shrine will consume it, healing for an amount based on the shrine's power and gaining 50% bonus movement speed which decays over 1.5 seconds. Enemy champions who step on the shrines will destroy it.

Problem solved

LegitBacon663 votes

{quoted}

What if whe reduce the buildup time from Bard Caretaker's Shrine when you rank it?:

#http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20150224202906/leagueoflegends/images/6/6c/Caretaker%27s_Shrine.png Caretaker's Shrine ACTIVE: Bard conjures a health shrine at the target location that builds up in power over 10 seconds 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 seconds. Bard can have up to 3 shrines active at once, which remain until visited by an ally or crushed by an enemy.

Allied champions who step over the shrine will consume it, healing for an amount based on the shrine's power and gaining 50% bonus movement speed which decays over 1.5 seconds. Enemy champions who step on the shrines will destroy it.

Problem solved

Make it scale with %HP

NorthernDruid3 votes

Also up the number of max shrines by 1 per rank.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by LegitBacon66

Upvote if you don't care about longer queue times
Gameplay188 comments
446
votes
Ekko's ultimate needs a damn mana cost
Gameplay217 comments
261
votes
Honestly, Even LCS is boring to watch
Gameplay251 comments
227
votes
Watching Dyrus's stream, the amount of open mids is retarded
Gameplay221 comments
202
votes
"It's sad that my laning phase is decided by one bad play" -Doublelift
Gameplay138 comments
181
votes
The randomness of the dragons has no strategic value
Gameplay113 comments
147
votes