Maokai saplings make Teemo shrooms seem like an absolute joke

The Deckowner·May 15, 2017·54 votes·3,454 views

Revert this rework already, is supposed to be a tank, not some BS mage support.

90 Comments

FilDaFunkMay 16, 201711 votes

Next patch: Teemo's shrooms now chase enemies.

Hèntaî May 16, 20171 votes

They blow up both sides' nexus

GGLineaRMay 17, 20172 votes

http://files.fobby.net/0000/5603/Ramblin%27%20Evil%20Mushrooms.png

Colton147May 16, 20178 votes

Maokai's saplings have counterplay (not invisible and can outrun the saplings).

Teemo's shrooms do not - they are invisible and are not disabled by a trinket.

The DeckownerMay 16, 20171 votes

can outrun the saplings

Literally impossible without tier2 boots

are not disabled by a trinket

item 3364 item 2055

The EcdysiastMay 16, 20172 votes

Looks like someone didn't read the most recent trinket changes.

MhihnjMay 16, 20171 votes

don't control wards disable traps. Oracle's doesn't, but i believe control wards do.

ModAcademy KaynMay 16, 20176 votes

Maybe, I don't know, we wait a few patches to fix things. What did you expect, a perfectly balanced champion straight off the bat? It's the same thing every Class Update, just give it a while before demanding reverts.

It goes against everything Riot has ever said if they actually meant to make him a Mage support. It's a mishap, that's all it is.

zero356May 16, 20172 votes

You know, I want to believe you, but Malzahar and to a lesser extent Mordekaiser (lesser because they at least admitted wanting to send him botlane)

ModAcademy KaynMay 16, 20174 votes

Wow, look two outliers. With Morde though, they didn't just ditch him after he got nerfed to hell. He got patch after patch of buffs to try and help his solo lane again.

Malz is stil getting his work, so it's not like he's out of the blender to be compared either.

zero356May 16, 20175 votes

Those are just the two worst outliers Vlad arguably still has the same problems as before Kogmaw had to be completely reverted Zyra is as much of a mess now and also got shoved botlane (she was there before, but now it's more permanent) MF is now a support, though I personally won't say that's from the update Caitlyn's even more annoying with the way her traps work Rengar Fizz in general has problems (again, may not be the update) where getting ulted basically means death, little to no questions asked

Towers are shit, and they get more shit with each update The amount of dissatisfaction with champions seems to increase after each update And consider Zac and Velkoz. Not ruined, but do call into question what the hell Riot's doing if they pick two relatively balanced champions to update

ModAcademy KaynMay 16, 20172 votes

Vlad has the same problems, but is much more fair in how people can deal with them. Kog'maw wasn't a complete revert, they kept his ult as Reworked.

Mf's not a fucking support, in no way is that the freaking meta. Rengar had health issues before, now he still does, but his damage is more delayed and more play aroundable. I'm fine with Fizz save for tank fizz.

Concerning Zac and Vel, they don't do updates solely on what's balanced or not. They wanted to make Velkoz more unique against other mages, and same goes with Zac (his Ult is honestly just a Wu ult with different Visuals)

But, despite all that, ALL OF THEM HAVE GOTTEN WORK after their rework. Velkoz eventually became the same thing after a few patches, Kog'maw got work, Vlad has had a lot of work on him. So, let's give Riot some time to Work on the newest people like they've worked on EVERY OTHER CHAMP BEFORE, before we start crying for reverts.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 16, 20172 votes

Or maybe finish a cycle before you start another one? Two class updates since the mage "rework" and we aren't done with mages yet. Release champ after champ, after rework, change jungle every half season, leave all those overpowered meta champs alone and we have the shitfest we have right now. What is riots goal honestly? How long should we give them time? 5 years? Until the current rework "failures" got solved? I mean for real now, if other people in the free economy work like that they could close the doors. Just finish a project one at a time and don't mesh twenty different things together.

ModAcademy KaynMay 16, 20171 votes

What mages are still being worked on other than Malzahar? Should one champs balance hold off the need for other champions time to be worked on? The Mage update itself is done, it's been done for a long time. The only issue we have are balance issues, with a single power balancing issue that Malzahar has found himself in. That's not the Class Rework's job, it's the Balance teams job after a few patches cleaning things up for the Pre/Mid-season.

3TWarriorMay 17, 20173 votes

actually, a lot of the issues are that the reworks quite literally gave champions power in their kits that is impossible to keep balanced

Swain, for example, can now harm the entire opposing team at once

malzahar lost everything he had because he has one of the most powerful item actives...on a short cooldown for his passive

zyra is everyone's favorite poster child for how not to balance a mage

fiddlesticks is probably the oldest mage design left in the game and could really use some of the resources they devoted to "outdated" and "underpicked" "niche" champions

velkoz was the only champion EVER that since release had only minor number tweaks to do with balance issues where he was never oppressive but he was "updated" for having a generic kit

Syndra, as people say, you don't have to land anything to delete someone

the design team is making mistakes that have been "fixed" in the past such as the new interactions between Xayah and Rakan who will inevitably suffer from Azir syndrome

I can post more, but the other examples tend to spark constant debate, whiteknighting and personal bias by players

ModAcademy KaynMay 17, 20171 votes

I haven't seen anyone complain about Swain in any way for a long time. How is being able to damage 5 people at once "unbalancable" either? That's risk-reward, planting yourself into the middle of an enemy team. You're going to take a lot of hits, but you're healing due to the danger you put yourself in.

Fiddle needs a VGU honestly. He's unique, but has more problems than meets the eye.

That's really not true with Syndra. Until level 9, nothing has changed since her mage rework if you can't hit anything. If you can't kill a Syndra who missed everything, and used a 4-6 ball ult, a lot of the problem is on the opponent for either missing their stuff, or the Syndra for being able to dodge and prolong a fight.

What interactions in the past were "fixed" that is comparable to Xayah and Rakan's special interactions? For my knowledge, their special interactions are entirely unique.

3TWarriorMay 17, 20171 votes

with that last part I meant that they have so much hidden power in their kit that they can adapt and overcome situations while preventing opponents from retaliating. It was the reason Azir was nerfed and several elements of his kit were removed

as for the others, i'm going by popular opinion....I haven't been able to play since the ISP of our area discontinued our area for being out of range and I can tell you that league is not fun or productive on a satellite connection...tried it before way back in like season 4

ModAcademy KaynMay 17, 20171 votes

I thought the reason that Azir had stuffed removed from his kit was due to the sheer overloaded nature of it. I wouldn't consider Rakan's one hidden power, as it's fairly obvious what just happened, even if you don't understand it.

Xayah's buff perhaps, but at the same time, you have visuals that show his feathers get special at the same time when Xayah's feathers look special. I don't think it's comparable to Azir.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 15, 20175 votes

ok so ya know on the PBE they are already lowering the base damages but increasing the max hp damage to a flat 8 % i dont know if that is in the bush or out of the bush sappling...

but ya know since it does Magic damage there are things called MR i mean an item like item 3194 most likely would be really effective from the bonus dot damage on the sapplings , could be wrong but yea lets cry over the only threat the champ has [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Fed by Snu SnuMay 15, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a4348OVl,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-15T22:46:40.511+0000)

ok so ya know on the PBE they are already lowering the base damages but increasing the max hp damage to a flat 8 % i dont know if that is in the bush or out of the bush sappling...

It's both.

Bush sappling just does double the damage.

And I'm pretty sure that's a buff in any regard except for the mana cost, but oh well, let's just watch Riot make him play Mid Lane as well and laugh at the tank "buffs".

junglerboy16May 15, 20172 votes

it's actually a large nerf unless the opponent has a very large amount of HP early, and a straight nerf the more ranks you put in it.

At max rank it's a flat -40 bush damage and +20 mana cost.

Fed by Snu SnuMay 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

it's actually a large nerf unless the opponent has a very large amount of HP early, and a straight nerf the more ranks you put in it.

At max rank it's a flat -40 bush damage and +20 mana cost.

And he does 8% from level 1.

So his early harass will be just as strong and since its the % that scales with AP, the later game won't make a difference.

I don't understand why they refuse to move his % damage back to his W already. Or I kinda do...that would be admitting that the rework had a mistake in it and Riot can't have such an admission.

junglerboy16May 15, 20171 votes

you don't get it bud.

that gave him +2% damage on his saplings, so until his opponent has 1000 health it's weaker. ON TOP OF THAT: every rank you put in E is giving you less and less return, so it's only a damage buff if they have 1,000/1,333/2,000/10,000/(outright nerf at max rank) HP.

Also, buffing the % scaling early game doesn't mitigate that they flat nerfed his late game, and the AP ratio is unchanged so it's not like building AP is gonna magically give him back the 40 damage they took from it.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 16, 20171 votes

well it its not like it really scales well ap any ways... yes you can do more damage on it with ap but the ratios are very low...

SteelflameMay 16, 20171 votes

His saplings scale great with AP, not sure why you think otherwise. You can increase the damage by about 150% to 200% with heavy AP investment. You can viably push them to be at a point where a single sapling is 45% max HP magic damage late game on a build with Void staff, Liandries, and Sorcs with pen runes for the maximum penetration with Rabadon and Morello. For your final item you either have the jungle item or support Eye-stone, depending on what role you are playing. This effectively means that 4 saplings in a bush will 1 shot most champions shy of them stacking an absolute ton of MR (Multiple saplings only stack the initial chunk of damage, which is about 20% max HP each, with only one sapling applying the bush DoT unless they somehow get staggered in application perfectly, at which point you could possibly run into a 2 sapling kill).

Your ult actually starts rather far behind you, like 1-2 character models behind. Casting it at a backwards diagonal may actually result in a hit that you wouldn't have gotten normally. You can instantly land a backward diagonal ult that would have taken 3 seconds to travel to a target standing still.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 16, 20171 votes

you do plenty of damage with out the AP... you get 4% of 100 ap added on to E

but 16% max HP damage is still strong on its own... its stronger then what his old W was... but to get 200 ap on maokai or more really makes him a weak front line target... so even if you get 100 ap which is typical

even for top lane if you get a item 3027 and at max rank on E is 290+16% +4% which is damage... i agree but by the time he gets 100ap or 200 ap or have time to get a full ap build you should A: killed him a bunch to make the investment not worth... B: have built mr vs him just like you would vs any other ap champ chunking you

SteelflameMay 16, 20171 votes

They do plenty of damage without AP, yea, but that doesn't mean his AP scaling is bad. For comparison, Zyra takes 760 AP to double her damage output. Mao triples his damage at about 650-700. He just has the perfect mix of pen and AP scaling as both his flat and pen damage scale great.

3TWarriorMay 17, 20171 votes

1000 health is about level 5, marksmen get up to 1100 by 6

The DeckownerMay 16, 20171 votes

Yeah I amma have adaptive helmet at lv1 so I can actually lane and not have to hug river for entirety of laning phase. Great advice kappa~

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 16, 20171 votes

ok do u not have any mr at lvl1? it dont do true damage

and how much damage can he do at lvl 1 with no ap ?

lets say its in a bush for the bonus damage instead of regular at lvl 1 90+12% of your max hp

lets say you have 600 hp lvl 1 600*12%=72 +90 =162 if he has no ap, no magic pen... and before we include base mr of 30 or runes for flat mr +12 so lets say he dont have ap or magic pen so 162 damage reduce by 30 mr would be how much damage ?

The DeckownerMay 16, 20171 votes

Let's say you are a morgana lv1 with 547 hp, 42mr, 1 single sapling in bush with 0 ap and 0 magic pen will do (90+0.12*547)*100/(100+42)=109 dmg, 20% of your entire health bar.

Not to mention when you leash for your jungler on blue side, Maokai can throw up to 3 saplings in the tribush, forcing you to take 60% hp chunk or take a long route and fall far behind in exp.

You can't outrun salpings lv1 without dash/speed up.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 16, 20172 votes

ok so as morgana take spell shield 1st and protect yourself and adc from it...

oh and knowing if you are vs a maokai dont face check bushes... ( one of the most basic rules of game )

seems like a sivir morgana bot lane would do really well vs maokai dont it ?

place a ward in teh bush as you approach it... you can put the ward in the bush at the outer edge of the circle and not be in range to argo the sapplings if they are there .

The DeckownerMay 16, 20171 votes

LMFAO good luck getting to lane without walking through tribush in blue side.

SpecterVonBarenMay 16, 20171 votes

Yes, let me buy item 3194 with all the gold I get as a support, or watch my ADC build it and then get flammed for doing no damage.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 16, 20171 votes

and what do u do when you face a zyra or brand in lane as a support ? do you not take MR RUNES cuz they do alot of magic damage

SpecterVonBarenMay 16, 20172 votes

item 3194 Isn't MR runes so why are you changing what your original point was?

The DeckownerMay 16, 20171 votes

how dare you question MrFawknSunshine, the one and only, god of league of legends, prophet of the gameplay board, who reached the unreacheable silver tier last season, and knows absolutely everything about maokai with the normal games he played yesteraday?

Skins ProjectMay 16, 20171 votes

He's a mao main you know....

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 16, 20171 votes

i am ... and i hate the rework and the changes to him...

he is a joke cheezy support now...

but its all he has...

he has zero damage with out the E

mao has had an average win rate of 46% since the end of last season... the rework hasnt made him stronger in top or jungle... the only role he has any positive win rate is the cheezy ap mao support.

never less just as vs a brand,zyra, or other dps mage support you run mr on runes and expect to be chuncked by them....

vs mao ward the bush... so u can see them * kinda like blitz sitting in a bush* be aware and oh the fukin sapplings arent targetable and you can see them and run away from them. stand on the opposite side of the the lane and have the minions between you and the bushes and ward the river side of lane for ganks.

ON NO i have to adjust and account for someting in game IT MUST BE THE END OF DA FUKIN WORLD!!! [zombie-brand-facepalm]

SpecterVonBarenMay 16, 20171 votes

Mao was my last jungle that Riot hadn't yet taken from me with nerfs and reworks so I too hate how he is right now and understand its the only place he's good right now but that doesntb mean we should act like its healthy and not speak out about its issues.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 16, 20172 votes

thats fine...

and i have advocated and bitched about how rito shit the bed on this rework

and i have even purpose a change that would be a compromise

and here it is:

i still maintain a 57% win rate with him top/jungle when his win rate in those roles are on average 46% since the season started (so before rework and after rework) 39-27 on him in the last month for a 59% win rate with a kda average of 3.39

they took the impact damage from his E cuz it was too strong in lane and he couldnt be shut out vs a bad match up and then they take the %hp damage on W to E now and people build him full ap go support and he has a win rate over 52% at support...

but if they simply give him lower CDR on W and make the duration of the root worth leveling (it goes 1.0 to 1.4 at max rank ) and lower the CDR on his ult by 15 seconds at each rank 120/110/100 currently so down to 105/95/85 seconds and make it move slighty faster , they can nerf the E damage and he would be fine and able to function as the protective type of counter engage tank they want him to be...

maybe just give him a lil higher flat ad base and a lil better attack speed at lvl 1 ( even nerf the scaling on it later is fine to compensate)

and a pet peeve is the clunky slow animation of his heal proc on passive , it use to be the fasted auto attack in the game now its weird

im not asking for higher ratios or damage or tank stats. just some cdr and a lil better duration on the root on W scaling

SaiannaMay 16, 20173 votes

Do you really expect ADCs buing MR xD?

Their bitching and moans on boards caused so many champions to be nerfed, just cause creating a thread was cheaper than buying MR xD

Even even gone as far so to make retarded-strong MR options for ADCs, but they ain't buing it xD

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 16, 20172 votes

they build ninja tabs vs armor pen now dont they?

they take flat armor in runes for trades in lane , the should have MR in runes vs an ap threat in bot lane.

SaiannaMay 16, 20171 votes

I meant something that would seriously buff their survival chances versus magic like MAW or Scimitar.

Runes, although important, are obvious :P

Rıots Bad ClientMay 16, 20172 votes

as a supp main. I just use Maokais saplings take the cs/push the wave and then ask for ganks.

BreakuMay 16, 20173 votes

lmao right?

i played against quite a few mao supports today, easy lane to win

The EcdysiastMay 16, 20172 votes

When Teemo shrooms are strong, no one plays the game.

Alex h8721May 16, 20174 votes

{quoted}

When Teemo shrooms are strong, no one plays the game.

they play a game, its called minesweeper.

3TWarriorMay 17, 20171 votes

thought it was Mario?

step on the mushrooms and jump on the Teemo!

BlakiepugMay 16, 20172 votes

I just want Teemo shrooms to be coded fairly. :/ They get destroyed by Yasuo Wind Wall but other traps like Jhin and Jinx do not. This interaction I want to be consistent more than anything.