Why Yasuo mains should NOT be worried about this update:

Shahamut··4 votes·1,532 views

TLDR- After rereading through the "Ask Riot" article about Yasuo's ban rate, I have concluded that Yasuo mains should probably not be worried about the upcoming update to Yasuo.

I would like to take some time to simply highlight some of the things they said in the article and give my thoughts as I read them. Here it goes.

Honestly? Yasuo is badass. He’s a lethal Ronin-esque character that can pull off slick moves in game, dashing and slashing everywhere, leaving chaos and death behind him…at least when he’s on the enemy team. We’re thrilled that we created a character that people love to play as much as him, but we’re also** sad that he’s effectively removed from play because of his popularity**.

So a few things that stuck out to me. RIOT, in what I think is actually somewhat of a humorous jab, recognizes the memory bias people have with Yasuo. Strong/OP on enemy team, feeder of the year on my team. RIOT hears the community loud and clear, this shows that they do hear us, but what follows also suggests that this is not their actual stance. I think this is good as RIOT as a company should definitely be able to recognize bad logic like this, since the feeding Yasuo AND the Killer of all Yasuo are always on SOMEONE's team and also on SOMEONE's enemy team. But even still, they take the time to recognize that this is a common emotion/feeling to a lot of players.

With the second highlighted statement, RIOT basically pats themselves on the back, because they NAILED IT! They hit Yasuo's thematic really well, and a LOT of people like him. They then point out that they feel Yasuo's popularity is one of the primary reasons he is so banned.

Think of it this way: Yasuo's kit is frustrating to play against, especially in certain non-favorable matchups and when he gets ahead. But do you really think the community at large would be so loudly protesting a champion, who is statistically pretty meh (2nd most or 1st most deaths per game, less than 50% winrate in intended role, barely 50% in side roll) if he was only as poplular as say, Urgot? Probably not. Yasuo being so popular means that people are having to deal with what they find frustrating about him a LOT. Does that mean he doesn't have other potential problems? No, but it is an interesting point.

We want you to be able to play Yasuo. The moments when he dashes from minion to minion narrowly escaping death, or lands that 5 man ult getting the pentakill, are **super satisfying and exciting **— we just need to make sure that the way you do it also provides your opponents with the feeling like they could have made meaningful decisions during the engagement.

RIOT wants this popular champion to be played. A LOT of people like him. This paragraph in my mind points out what RIOT feels are the core gameplay fantasies of playing Yasuo- Dashing around, looking for 5 man ults, getting penta kills :P. They recognize that these are the things most Yasuo players enjoy about the champion. The latter part then goes back to addressing what RIOT hears is the main problem, and that is what I have heard referred to as "agency". Players playing against Yasuo need to feel like they have options when engaging/being engaged on by Yasuo. Players will rarely feel "outplayed" while locked out of a fight in a jungle corridor for nearly 4 seconds because Yasuo threw up a windwall while his team gangs up on the one poor tank that tried to start a fight there. #feelsbadman. RIOT hears and recognizes this.

Now, we could easily get his ban rate down by focusing on his raw power,** but** doing so would probably also mean that he’d have to be so weak that picking him was actually putting Yasuo players at a MAJOR disadvantage, let alone putting his promised fantasy at risk.** Yasuo already struggles with being a viable champion the higher you climb**, and** instead has a lot of his playrate derived from players who devote themselves to mastering him** (and** even then aren’t rewarded with the typical winrate growth you would expect**). A decent indicator of this is his presence in pro play: 2016: 19 picks, 1 ban (Nidalee for reference was 404 picks and 930 bans) 2017: 1 pick, 1 ban

BUT- the all important word in this paragraph. They don't want to make Yasuo any weaker than he already is. To all the Yasuo mains, this should be a huge relief to you, RIOT has no plans to make this champion weaker, whatever it is they are going to do. Everything that follows is support for this stance: Yasuo is less and less viable the higher you climb unless you are a one trick. (one tricking to learn this fun champ accounts for a lot of his play rate) But even among one tricks, Yasuo is one of the least rewarded when it comes to increased win rates for spending the time to master a champion. The LCS stats are also evidence supporting this stance that Yasuo is not ACTUALLY a powerful champion, hes just "badass!" or "cool". Obviously, if Yasuo was as powerful as some people talked him up to be, he would probably see more LCS play.

While** these numbers certainly aren’t conclusive, nor necessarily indicative of a problem**, it’s an interesting note that in the most competitive environment Yasuo actually struggles to find his place on the Rift.

RIOT shows that these stats are not what motivate them to do this change (it was established earlier that they have heard the outcry of the community, which bumped him up on priority) but it does show that Yasuo was in fact, as they stated previously, already on the radar for work.

Our belief is that if we want to get him into a state where he is both viable and also not a must-ban, we need to tweak more than numbers. He was already pretty high on our list of champions that we wanted to look at on the scope of a potential ability update (think Rek’sai, Kindred, Heimer etc.), and with the release of 10 bans he’s moved right up alongside some fellow counterparts in Leblanc and Azir.

RIOT wants Yasuo to be a viable champion who is not also a must-ban. We have their goal. Their conclusion? Tweak more than just numbers. This is pretty obvious, but RIOT is pointing out that some things will have to change. To what extent? We don't really know. They haven't told us, not exactly, anyway :)

I want to stress that we haven’t begun investigation yet as we iterate on some other projects, but** we’ll be taking a look at him in the next few weeks.** I’d expect that when we’re done Yasuo will look and feel very similar to now, but with power shifted around on his kit to provide more windows of engaging decision making for his opponents, while maintaining a lot of the agile swordmaster experience he provides today. Again, we’re thrilled that Yasuo is a champion that gives people who play him something to love, now we just need to find a fair way to have his opponents accept their fate as he steals their last breath with his blade.

As of this post, RIOT hasn't yet begun to investigate into Yasuo, but they will be soon. These are a few of the most important parts of this article as to why Yasuo mains need not worry. He will look and feel similar to now, meaning his overall gameplay patterns will change little if at all. He will of course hopefully have more opportunities for his opponents, but will maintain the fantasy of the agile swordsman.

We would love to hear your thoughts on this, actually! What is it that you love about playing as Yasuo? What is it that you hate when playing against him? Tell us in the comments!

RIOT begins their research immediately after this post. I am more than sure there is a RIOTer or two who have been combing through these comments and all of the threads that have popped up since.

So, thoughts and Predictions:

-SLASHY-SLASHY! DASHY-DASHY!

I am fairly certain based on the above that RIOT will not be making ANY significant changes (if any at all) to Yasuo's Q (Slashy-Slashy) or E (Dashy-Dashy). I believe these two abilities to be key to fulfilling the agile swordsman fantasy that has captured the fans of Yasuo. E+Q will still be a thing, and Yasuo will still charge up and throw tornadoes.

What MIGHT happen to Q and E?- My guess, is that if they make changes to Yasuo Q, they will revert the hold time on his stacks to 10 seconds, but then will also increase the cooldown of his Q at early levels. It will still scale down with attack speed, but having a higher base cooldown means fewer tornadoes in the lane phase. If needed, they could also make a distinction between having 1 or 2 stacks of gathering storm, being able to hold the 1st charge for 10 seconds, but once a tornado is ready, only being able to hold it for 6-8 seconds. Either way, a possible cooldown increase on Q early ranks could happen. This change alone could easily reduce his lane pressure, as it means less early tornadoes, and less opportunities for Yasuo to just dash in, knock up, dash out. I also suspect that a minor damage buff (perhaps in removing the -crit damage multiplier) could happen.

As far as his Dash is concerned, the only thing I can currently see RIOT doing is removing the stacking damage, and move that power elsewhere. I don't see any buffs as necessary to Yasuo's fantasy. This skill does what it is supposed to do and the bonus damage is just extra uneeded and unfelt power. Power that can easily be moved elswhere. Also, I could see them adding clarity to opponents by letting them see the cooldowns on Yasuo's dash targets.

-Melee Skirmishers need defensive tools

Yasuo's passive shield, I feel, is only really complained about AFTER everything else. However, it is easily played around, as it only lasts briefly when popped, and is not dictated by Yasuo in its use. Skirmishers need defensive tools to survive in melee and do damage. It has visibility so opponents can see when its about to be up, its personal (only affects Yasuo), and is there for, in my opinion, ok as is.

What MIGHT happen to passive shield?- Its generation rate, at low levels, could become reduced to offer larger windows during the lane phase. I assume it would likely scale back to where it is now in the later part of the game, since I don't think his shield is a problem for anyone outside of lane phase. This extra power could be then moved to something else, like base stats, to make Yasuo an overall stronger champion. Obviously, he is still going to be squishy melee man, but a small buff to his base stats would go a long way to keeping him viable I think.

Windwall... So much can be said about the frustration level of this one skill. Now, although I WILL say that the wall has CLEAR counterplay, to say that the counter play presented is easily accessible is highly unlikely. This is the skill that I think will be the crux of this updates change. I can see it happening in one of 2 ways:

A) The wall size is fixed (current rank 2 or 3?) and the duration will be MASSIVELY reduced. 3.75 seconds is a HUGE amount of time, especially in a team fight. The duration will likely get reduced and scale. Maybe something like 1.75/2/2.25/2.5/2.75. At max rank, its a great deal smaller and a full second shorter. Being as its also his last skill maxed, this would be a considerable boost to his opponents, especially in lane phase, to having opportunity to attack him and making his disengages with it slightly less frustrating. Also, to make it less forgiving, have it form in front of him at his melee range (ya know, where he swings his sword?). This power will likely get moved elsewhere in his Kit.

B) A whole new ability. To which end, there is no way to predict what RIOT would have in store. But chances are it will be Wind themed, and be a defensive tool. A slightly less cool option would be to take his passive shield, buff its utility and make it his W. Call it wind barrier or something and make it like Morgana black shield (cc immune) but for physical damage, completely negating ranged Autos (not skills) for the duration or until broken.

Melee Skirmishers (carries in general) NEED a damage steroid of some kind

Passive double crit- I think critical strikes are part of the master swordsman fantasy that Yasuo brings. This will likely stay as it not only fits thematically, but also is part of why full-tank Bruiser Yasuo won't be a thing. His first two items will NEED to be critical strike items. This keeps him squishy. A possible buff could happen though if these windows prove sufficient, and he could gain the rest of his critical strike damage back. aka no more -10% crit. Of course, a better way to do that would be to scale it down, so as to gate some of his early damage from crits, -30/15/0% crit damage at levels 1/6/11, or something like that.

What MIGHT happen to passive double crit? If this does get changed, I imagine he would gain some kind of critical strike damage bonus, or some kind of regular garanteed critical strike. This would, however present an entire different kind of balance battle that would have to be solved in patches to come, and could lead to more Bruiser Yasuo builds.

Ultimate Armor Shred- As a sustained damage carry, he needs to be able to deal with tanks eventually, and this is a good way to do it, because honestly, if he is ulting in for big team fights on multiple target knock ups, he is likely not focusing the tank for the majority of its duration anyway.

IMPORTANT NOTE I think it is important to note here that Yasuo's 2 "damage steroids" are both indirect sources of damage increase. On live, he currently gains 100% crit faster than anyone else, which is nice, but it still does less critical damage per strike than any other champion. This is especially evident, and in my mind, a problem late game when you have ranged adc's attacking just as fast if not faster than Yasuo from much farther away, for much more damage per hit. His ult gives armor shred, which is largely ineffective against squishy targets since they don't build armor (typically) and only a really big increase against tanky opponents. Other champions in this category (Riven and Fiora for example) have direct damage increases: Riven gets on hit bonus damage to her autos after using skills, and an AD buff when she ults, making her steroid much more effective against squishy targets, albeit maybe slightly less effective against tankier ones. Fiora has true damage, which... ok, the fact that its true damage that scales with X%MAX HP still kind of bothers me personally, but you get the idea. Direct damage buffs vs indirect. Just some food for thought as to why Yasuo is much less effective at higher tiers of play.

I don't predict any big changes to his ultimate. Perhaps some of the power will get moved there to make the base damage stronger, or give it a different affect after landing.

If you took the time to read all of this, thank you. I hope this was helpful and constructive. The winds of change are blowing, and I think its for the best.

34 Comments

ThighHighHentai2 votes

I feel relieved knowing that Rito won't be fucking up my baby, Yasuo.

Shahamut2 votes

I hope I was able to calm some fears for you :)

ThighHighHentai1 votes

To be fair, I had a feeling they weren't going to change his E or Q since those are core parts of his "jump in and 1v5" playstyle.

RogueWill2 votes

Yasuo can keep his tornado for 6-8 sec.... Vlad can only keep his empowered Q for 2 sec. Make it 2 sec from the moment it goes out of cd as well and you add a lot of counterplay

Shahamut1 votes

Not counter play. Uselessness... vlad empowered q much stronger than nado dude... and isnt targeted

RogueWill1 votes

Not really. Any other ability that scales up with he same mechanic like the tornado has a really short window of opportunity to make up fot it. SO both players can prepare beforehand to know what they will do. Instead Yasuo just holds onto the tornado zoning his opponents for half a wave and when next waves comes he does it again. Tell me again how is that not strong?

Shahamut2 votes

Tornado is still a skill shot that can be dodged, doesn't do near as much damage (especially early) and doesn't provide a huge heal.

Annie holds her stun for as long as she wants. Yasuo holding his tornado for 6 seconds is not oppressive at all.

RogueWill2 votes

Except Annie holding her stun is a self silence (she can't use any other ability or she lose the stun and you can immediately engage on her) plus you have a huge red indicator to know how close she is to it so you can plan accordingly. Yasuo has no indicator, has CC attached to it (vlad doesn't btw and you still think is stronger) and he can use any other ability while he holds onto it. What is exactly the drawback from having it 6 sec? A real drawback would be making him drain his flow the longer he holds it. But sure the tornado is not oppressive at all.

Shahamut2 votes

A self silence that can completely zone you from farming for fear of her full burst combo. She only needs e stacks to have this zoning power past level 3.

Yasuo's tornado can be dodged. Vlad Q cannot. Not only does Vlad Q not require a skill shot, not only does it do a ton of extra damage, it also RESTORES a crap ton of his own health. The two skills aren't comparable, vlad q is far more impactful.

RogueWill1 votes

A self silence is still a drawback, and if you are ranged that self silence screws annie since the wave will push towards her forcing her to reset the counter in order to keep the wave control.

E+Q is not dodge able, you will be knocked up unless you have godlike reflexes to flash. The current tornado have no play around it, it simple adds a huge amount of power without any drawback at all. Take other people that hold skills Jhin can hold is 4th shot but after it he wont be able to aa for 2 sec (can't aa on the time being as well), Draven has to actively catches his axes in order to keep his power window, Fizz and Leblanc have to wait while they are in battle; Yasuo...yeah just Q twice the melee minions and proceed to zone your opponent.

Shahamut1 votes

Annie is also ranged... wth you talking about? That's not a drawback. That's called wave control and zoning. Annie zones you off creeps. You get no cs, wave pushes to her side and she freezes lane. Now you are overextended if you are trying to farm. Not every skill has go have a "draeback". Using your logic, I could say Vlad Q has no real drawback.

RogueWill1 votes

It has a short window of opportunity. Hence what I'm telling you to do with Yasuo.

Luminier1 votes

Just by making this suggestion I can tell you've never played a game of Yasuo in your life

Shahamut2 votes

Surprised at how fast these posts get buried...

Leaf on Bush2 votes

People prefer quantity circlejerks instead of quality discussions. It's nothing personal. Your efforts to discuss any topic in detail will just drown in waves of QQ and rants.

There are many players who content themselves with blindy hating a champion like Yasuo and they celebrate their bias and all their little prejudices on every occasion.

They also hate change. Reworks are always bad!

You will get downvoted by Yasuo haters but also by a lot of Yasuo mains and most of them won't read even 20% of what you said.

Shahamut2 votes

Did... did you read it...? :-(

Hèntaî 2 votes

Yes.

Shahamut2 votes

:-)

Leaf on Bush2 votes

Might do that if you fix the quotes. xD

Shahamut2 votes

Not sure what happened. Fixed it I rhink

Rexxiee1 votes

And you trust riot's word?

They could completely butcher him, or not.

Riot reworks right now are 50/50, they are either good or awful.

Shahamut2 votes

RITO has been pretty good about sticking to what they say. I would be willing to bet that the "failed" reworks (if you want to call them that cough Skarner cough) were all communicated as to what was going on... Even if the player base didnt like it.

Just check what they said man... They want Yas to be a good champ. They aren't going to butcher him, and they arent going to change his theme or gameplay style.

Most likely is windwall for big changes. possibly some clarity and window making changes. Other than that? buffs my man... buffs...

DoktorKaiser1 votes

I am ok with him dashing a lot, I am not ok with him dashing infinitely. Make his dash once per minion and never again. That way he can be punished if he dashes for no fucking reason or just to harass you a bit every 10 seconds. Nerf the crit passive or rework it alltogether, its cancer. Move the shield passive to W. Rework W completely, its extremely toxic and buggy and is in no way an expression of skill or good reflexes. Lower the armor penetration on ulti, he doesnt need to be a tank buster, and remove the mechanic that moves him away from the turret when he uses it. There you go, easy fix.

Shahamut1 votes

First of all, a Yasuo RARELY if ever uses a minion to dash through more than once. I honestly can't think of a single time I have ever seen a minion get used for dashing as in its short existence on the rift. Adding clarity to which minions have been dashed to I think is a better solution to your problem.

Crit passive is his damage steroid, and as I pointed out, it's one of the weaker steroids amongst carries, since it is currently reduced crit damage. Same with the armor pen on his ult. You can probably expect changes/buffs to his steroids, since they are comparatively weak.

As much as you hate Yasuo, he obviously isn't OP and his defensive abilities are obviously under performing. Shield is overrated, and Windwall does in fact have some skill expression, just not beyond the initial cast :-P. Windwall will likely be the biggest target for change in this update.

Moving Yasuo to a spot outside of tower range is only weird when he is being placed further than melee distance from his target. Is a minor issue.

Regardless, this thread is here to point out what RIOT has said concerning Yasuo and why his mains should not be worried about him getting completely gutted or his play style drastically changing.

DoktorKaiser1 votes

Well that is where I disagree, there is no way to keep his style the same without him being extremely frustrating to play against, even if his winrate was 25%. Its just boring, I literally lose my will to play when I see that I am against yasuo and he is played too fucking much. Dont think that I dont feel the same way about Lee as well, they are the same deal.

Shahamut1 votes

Well thank you for confirming Riots conclusion that a lot of his hate is generated from his popularity.

I mean, if you think fighting Yasuo is boring, I'm curious who you think is not boring to fight. Personally, I think Xerath, Ziggs and Heimmer are the most boring lane matchups.

DoktorKaiser1 votes

I dont know how to put it, that feeling when laning against Yasuo, its like I'm standing there and watching him slide around and throw tornados around every second without a care in the world. There is no punishment, there is nothing you can do to stop him on most champs, you can only wait for him to do something stupid which he almost always will do and then you kill him. But thats it, he has to fuck up so that you can do anything, if he doesnt - you wont kill him/win the trade/ harass him. Eventually it all comes down to the fact that having no cooldowns on a resourceless champion who is also super mobile is not healthy for the game and is certanly not fun to play against. And actually I dont think laning against Yasuo is boring, its more boring because every goddamn person has to play him every single game and most of them suck so you get bored of same shit every game, but once a true good Yasuo player comes along boring soon turns into extremely frustrating, unlike something like Heimer who is always just boring.

Shahamut1 votes

Although my experience is different than yours, I can understand your feelings. I think adding agency, the feeling like you can lane vs him, is one of the primary goals for his update. Going back to having higher early cooldowns on his Q is one way to do this for sure. I really feel like this update will be good for everyone. Yasuo players and opponents alike.

Dynamiku Entry1 votes

What in the bloody soggy fuck are you on about.

Shahamut2 votes

What??

Maddened King 1 votes

I honestly think they are just going to change the wind wall like you suggested or give him something else. But yeah, I don't think he is getting gutted or nerfed like people hope for. I do feel he is going to remain at the same power level and might be a bit stronger or a bit weaker. Regardless of the outcome, it will be fine tuned back to his original level. I really hope Riot do not nerf Yas, he is fine, I honestly don't even understand the change but I guess people just don't like dealing with him.

Shahamut1 votes

Yeah, I mean, based on what RIOT said, I think people are going to get the opposite of what they wanted. Right now, Yasuo is on the weaker side as a champion, who (mostly due to his popularity) has a few VERY frustrating aspects to his kit. RIOT has been looking at Yasuo for a while now, but due to player out cry he is now up in priority.

He is going to be overall buffed, and his dash and slash play style will stay in tact, as per RIOT's stated goals. Haters gonna be mad.

side note: My suggestion for windwall-

  1. Fix size (live rank 2 or 3) no longer grows with rank.
  2. Duration scales from 1 to 2 seconds based on Rank.
  3. Spawn from melee attack range instead of in model.
TruelyTrueTrueth1 votes

i see so muhc chaos icon in this comment section

;-;

Shahamut1 votes

If it wasn't Riven and Yasuo, is have picked order... don't know if that's any consultation, but there you have it

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