how do we make immobile melees with no ranged attacks NOT stat checks

Big Lincoln·Jun 6, 2017·23 votes·2,114 views

and how would they ever be realistically viable if they didn't have very reliable melee damage when they have no means of extending their threat zone or quickly gapclosing onto targets? then there's also the issue that comes with most juggernauts, limited outplay potential; they don't have big juke tools or counter-attacks like riposte etc, so they usually have to facetank harass and crowd control. is that acceptable for these 3? do they need to be given those tools, or can they somehow work as only-melee threats and be healthy?

how do we make these guys acceptable for modern standards? i would like to play them without feeling like a handicap for my team

edit for discussion: i think, if it's not offensive to their theme, then either of these champions should be given a ranged attack or a way to more reliably close the distance (think like illaoi jump distance, but free-aim or something so it's a proper gap closer). i actually think a ranged lightning attack would be quite cool for volibear, he doesn't use the element nearly enough

66 Comments

MarshbouyJun 6, 201720 votes

https://media2.giphy.com/media/WUGNg3FuhiywU/200.webp#0-grid1

Big LincolnJun 6, 20174 votes

very insightful

TakazakiJun 6, 201712 votes

The reason why these champions are stat checks is because they have very little means to outplay

people who complain about mobility creep tend to forget that without it you just get binary champions who can only do one thing.

Imo you have to give them skillshots/mobility/secondary quests/objectives then tie their power into it.

when it comes to these champions you have no way to pay around them. its either they catch you and if they have enough stats you lose or they dont have enough stats and you just kite them into oblivion.

this isnt limited to tanks either

xin zhao is probably one of the biggest offenders of this. he jumps on you and pokes you, if you dont die he just doesnt have enough gold. thats all he can do, there is very little else he can perform that would be outclassed by nearly anyone else even if it isnt their specialization.

Big LincolnJun 6, 20174 votes

i dont think you need mobility to make these champions less binary, or at least not extreme mobility.

other MOBAs, most melees have ranged stuns/heavy slows that help them get in range to do their thing, which I think would be much better suited for juggernauts. the biggest hurdle with this direction is that riot just sort of refuses to give juggs hard CC, and the only exception i can think of is udyr's bear mode, but i honestly think it would be the healthiest way to do it, as long as it's not excessive high damage aoe CC all in one move.

TakazakiJun 6, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a1L5kU2N,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-06-06T02:39:58.751+0000)

i dont think you need mobility to make these champions less binary, or at least not extreme mobility.

other MOBAs, most melees have ranged stuns/heavy slows that help them get in range to do their thing, which I think would be much better suited for juggernauts. the biggest hurdle with this direction is that riot just sort of refuses to give juggs hard CC, and the only exception i can think of is udyr's bear mode, but i honestly think it would be the healthiest way to do it, as long as it's not excessive high damage aoe CC all in one move.

you didnt read the whole thing they have to have one of the following ( or a mix of )

skillshots/mobility/secondary quests/objectives then tie their power into it. im just saying just throw mobility onto everyone, you have to give more power to them that can fail in order to make them less stat check and more skill based.

Also BIG BIG BIG NOTE juggernauts only form of counter play is they they have low utility ( which is why daruis is arguably the best as he might do less damage but he is able to make you fight him via CC whilst garen and illoai are just pure unadulterated stat check) giving any of them a useful form of CC will break them unless their damage is nerfed to compensate for the new power they have.

Big LincolnJun 6, 20177 votes

Also BIG BIG BIG NOTE juggernauts only form of counter play is they they have low utility

disagree, a lot of juggernauts have more utility than people give credit for. they just don't have much in terms of CC, but that's still not a problem IMO as long as the CC is clearly avoidable and easy to play around. a single target stun skillshot, or an AoE that's very delayed, would not break a new jugg provided their kit accounts for it

illaoi is probably the furthest thing from a stat check in the game, she is the epitome of avoidable and heavily telegraphed but can win very hard even when extremely behind. her win condition is whether or not she lands her E; she's still binary but not because of being a stat check.

TakazakiJun 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a1L5kU2N,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-06T03:24:17.200+0000)

disagree, a lot of juggernauts have more utility than people give credit for. they just don't have much in terms of CC, but that's still not a problem IMO as long as the CC is clearly avoidable and easy to play around. a single target stun skillshot, or an AoE that's very delayed, would not break a new jugg provided their kit accounts for it

illaoi is probably the furthest thing from a stat check in the game, she is the epitome of avoidable and heavily telegraphed but can win very hard even when extremely behind. her win condition is whether or not she lands her E; she's still binary but not because of being a stat check.

Name one juggernaut with Decent utility besides Daruis

https://plays.tv/video/578593e235f102ccda/savagery?from=user

Avoidable? this was with 1 favorable spawn, you either die to illaoi whilst her ult is up or you dont and she does nothing useful outside that that without a doubt a stat check. Illaoi's win condition is her ult duration her E only serves to enhance that as it baits you into fighting her which again can very much work against her. i was what 3/2 in this clip and i still would have lost that fight had the not decided to do exactly what i wanted them to do ( and even called it out before hand telling him not to do it) all gragas had to do was E me or let gnar stun me take a E hit wait for my ult and then knock me away with ult and wait for ult duration. then i just straight up lose fights because i cant stop gnar from killing my tenticals.

Big LincolnJun 6, 20178 votes

trundle Q stealing AD, E slows, R shreds a tank's resists, olaf Q slow spam, mundo permaslow, mord can heal an ally, nasus has wither and AOE armor reduction, yorick has a slow and his box, voli's aoe 3 second slow, hell even garen has pretty decent utility between his silence and his armor shred. the ones who are worst off in terms of utility are udyr, illaoi and shyvana

and you just listed how illaoi is not a stat check; needing to actually fulfill requirements (being near tentacles, landing E, getting R on multiple people) is the definition of not a stat check. Volibear is a stat check because he has no conditions other than stand on you and right click, same for Udyr . Garen is a stat check because he has no conditions other than stand on you and press Q and E. Illaoi needs to do stuff, some of it relies on landing slow skillshots, other parts are about baiting enemies to over-commit. that is NOT a stat check champion's play style.

TakazakiJun 6, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a1L5kU2N,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-06T03:54:09.689+0000)

trundle Q stealing AD, E slows, R shreds a tank's resists, olaf Q slow spam, mundo permaslow, mord can heal an ally, nasus has wither and AOE armor reduction, yorick has a slow and his box, voli's aoe 3 second slow, hell even garen has pretty decent utility between his silence and his armor shred. the ones who are worst off in terms of utility are udyr, illaoi and shyvana

and you just listed how illaoi is not a stat check; needing to actually fulfill requirements (being near tentacles, landing E, getting R on multiple people) is the definition of not a stat check. is a stat check because he has no conditions other than stand on you and right click, same for . is a stat check because he has no conditions other than stand on you and press Q and E. needs to do stuff, some of it relies on landing slow skillshots, other parts are about baiting enemies to over-commit. that is NOT a stat check champion's play style.

Trundle didnt even have a good winrate in the last 2 tank meta where he is suppose to dominate, he is gimped because he is win or lose due to having that utility ( which is also weak to begin with ) trundle was a nightmare when he was meta

his win condition is standing on top of them and hoping he can beat them to death before he dies

Olaf only strong when his ult is up, to much power in his R when allows him to bypass the juggernaut weakness of just kite them which is why the rest of his abilities are sub par Swift boot almost completely negate hit Q utility ( which is where the power of his R should have been spent imo because then he could at-least be balanced)

run at them hoping he can kill a carry before he dies

Nasus has the one of the weakest laning phases in the game, he can almost auto lose some match ups and is very abuse-able by junglers. his wither/spirit are only strong with points in them unlike most other utility spells ( also spirit fire isnt a utility spell ) He pays hsi price for having that late game "slow" not to mention again its completely cucked by swift boots for 900g

Farm enough hoping he can threaten the back line... aka run at them untill they die.

every single juggernaut you listed has VERY weak CC thats completely negate-able through itemization

illaoi E-Q get nothing don't by their down unless you run into it 7 times, at that point literally anyone else in could have also killed you

you're confusing skill ceiling ( the mastery of a champions mechanics EI landing olaf Q's ) with binary ( relating to, composed of, or involving two things, IE: you run at them [ part one ] you deal damage [ part 2 ] ) every single champion you listed does that and has no other saving grace but that ( which is why they are played as split pushers )

AhristocatsJun 6, 20178 votes

you asked who had utility and he gave you juggernauts with utility

mordekaiser can also heal an ally for 500 hp and give movement speed

MordepoolJun 6, 20172 votes

Also Dragon.

Big LincolnJun 6, 20176 votes

none of that is relevant. you wanted to know what juggs had utility and I showed you that they had utility

most juggs are outdated and need to be brought up to par, i'm not arguing that. but juggernauts have utility, and that's not likely to change with any new releases or reworks we get

ZerenzaJun 6, 20171 votes

Agreed, though would argue illaoi doesn't need to land her E, but it's definitely core to her winning trades against other fighter's/juggernauts(She can't auto attack them to death, she doesn't have any CC at all, no true damage execute buffer like Garen or Darius).

Illaoi is really REALLY good in a comp that has a lot of lock down already/engage. If your ADC is an ashe for example, it's nice to pick Illaoi because her ult can be used to engage for you, Another good one is Varus, Veigar, Amumu, Wukong, Braum, the list goes on but basically if you don't already need a tank to go in, pick her if you have enough AP already, she'll basically solo carry the game until your ADC is able to catch up finish it off.

Mastery 7 illaoi main.

Yorick is also a damned good juggernaut, his W has a lot of uses, catching people, locking people out, singling someone out in a teamfight, punishing over committing.

I play a lot of champs that punish player's for over committing( i like them a lot).

EndlessSorcererJun 8, 20171 votes

None of that matters. You asked which juggernauts had utility and they provided many valid examples.

Don't just try to change your argument when you are proven wrong.

SEKAIJun 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

xin zhao is probably one of the biggest offenders of this. he jumps on you and pokes you, if you dont die he just doesnt have enough gold. thats all he can do, there is very little else he can perform that would be outclassed by nearly anyone else even if it isnt their specialization.

He can do the "Insec" trick, just that he needs an enemy target to jump to first.

But otherwise yeah, he's a stat-check.

PermabannedGarenJun 6, 20174 votes

Any design whose win condition is "get into melee range" but doesn't actually have any tools to help them get into melee range is doomed to fail.

They need some mobility or they need some way to force enemies into their threat radius.

And giving them mobility would just make them obnoxiously tanky divers.

So sort of like Warwick I guess.

Big LincolnJun 6, 20174 votes

And giving them mobility would just make them obnoxiously tanky divers.

even a very small jump on par with Illaoi's?

Darkdemon653Jun 6, 20173 votes

You ask that like there's a problem with supposed "stat checks".

Big LincolnJun 6, 20176 votes

the problem is that riot does not find their play patterns to be desirable anymore, and thus they will be kept down until they can be worked on and made to be more acceptable by their new standards

DeathBurstJun 6, 20173 votes

Udyr or Volibear have similar levels of "extending their threat zone or quickly gapclosing" as Illaoi or Darius, who are arguably functioning Juggernauts, and even Garen is not that far behind. That's not their real problem.

Their real problem is that they are so reliable that they have to give up a lot of power to get that level of consistency. Where Darius or Illaoi can fail, miss their skill-shots, not get that critical hit in that will let them survive just 1 more auto and then get a triple kill, instead, it's hard to miss anything on Garen/Udyr/Volibear. This lack of variance in their output is why their ceiling is so heavily constrained. In order to make them "not stat check" (and simply viable, actually), you need to give them the possibility to fail.

So how you do that precisely, I don't really care, but that's the key point you have to hit. For Garen, it'll probably involve some way to get a variable amount of in-combat sustain. Udyr is not in as bad a shape as the other two because choosing the right stance for the right situation is actually a decent skill check where you have room to fail already, even if it's not mechanical execution. And for Volibear, I don't have any strong idea. Maybe make his charge works similarly to Rammus power-ball? Maybe make his bite a skill-shot, or his roar have an additional effect if you time it well according to some condition. I don't know.

CyberBaltJun 7, 20173 votes

I guess if they had more windowed moments of power, like Yorick ?

Zero Skill TankJun 7, 20171 votes

That. More recent juggernauts like Jerry or Aloha are not stat-checky at all.

CyberBaltJun 7, 20171 votes

Jerry? Aloha? Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about xD

FeelsCampedManJun 6, 20172 votes

Give them mobility or ranged attacks :^

Big LincolnJun 6, 20171 votes

ya i think that'll be what needs to happen, it'll be sad to lose them but i'd rather they be viable

udyr seems like the trickiest to work with, i feel like he'd become very complex and bloated if his stances all become very conditional. might feel very gimmicky

SEKAIJun 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a1L5kU2N,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-06-06T01:20:11.971+0000)

ya i think that'll be what needs to happen, it'll be sad to lose them but i'd rather they be viable

udyr seems like the trickiest to work with, i feel like he'd become very complex and bloated if his stances all become very conditional. might feel very gimmicky

That's not how you keep your roster iconic and meaningful.

Back in the release rush, Riot released most of their champs with almost identical kit philosophies and functions, where almost every released champ was a fighter (which is why there are so many of them). It's also because of it they are doing the rework frenzy re-doing every one of them.

You don't want to repeat that exact same mistake by making everyone at least semi-ranged.

What you want to do is to make melee viable and not make everyone into the same thing again.

Big LincolnJun 6, 20172 votes

you make melee viable by giving them tools that get them into melee range

nyx1998Jun 6, 20171 votes

why not both*[slayer-jinx-wink]*

My HeartshakerJun 6, 20172 votes

I honestly think DMG reduction or increased mobility is the way to go.

The champions you've listed are tanks, or pseudo-tanks aka kiting them is a massive way to outplay them, by giving them ways of reducing damage or getting to their target faster you are realistically making them effective or viable at doing their roles.

LeetriJun 6, 20171 votes

They're juggernauts, so they should be tanky and not very mobile but deal very respectable damage once they managed to enter a fight. Think like Darius. They need some kind of utility to catch their target aside from just running at them, like how Darius can pull in enemies to the range he wants or how Nasus can slow them by a ton. Garen might shout DEMACIA really loud which makes enemies tremble in fear, for example. It could disarm them and make them grounded, or maybe just a straight up fear. It could be AoE, it could be single target, it could only affect those who recently damaged him or an ally (actually I like that one).

ZerenzaJun 6, 20171 votes

Alternatively they could be the anti-fight Juggernaut, similar to illaoi, it's a very bad idea to engage a 5v5 with an illaoi on the enemy team. She zone's people away and teaches them not to fight her, in lane and out of it because it's how she was built. They could also go Yorick's route and make him a damned good split push juggernaut. I hope to god they don't model newer juggernauts after Garen or Darius, jesus christ those two are insane, garen is bad because he has to be, juggernaut's shouldn't have guaranteed CC such as a silence because, where's the counterplay to that? They also shouldn't have True Damage execute's, fear's or charms, those abilities on juggernauts are extremely potent. Darius is one of the best juggernauts for a reason, it's because unlike other juggernauts he doesn't pay for the massive damage he get's by having no CC, he has a freaking pull one of the most powerful CC's in the game.

I think juggernaut's should take more notes from Yorick and Illaoi, the most recent juggernauts, skillshots are extremely important, they aren't focused on being abusive in lane their focused on Zoning, teaching you that you can't fight them and keeping you in your place. More juggernauts with zoning play styles seems very good to me, they could technically have Zone specific CC, like if you step in a certain area and sit there for to long, you get silenced, stunned or rooted, that would be fair.

five oh tree Jun 6, 20172 votes

There are very easy ways riot could fix the champions

Let's take Garen example: Remove his current Q and replace it with an ability like...

Q: Righteous Wrath: Garen briefly (.3s) roots himself and swings his sword in a wide overhead swing that has enough force that it cracks the ground and damages enemies for 10/60/110/160/210 (+ .9 total attack), grounding enemies hit in the center for 1/1.1/1.2/1.3/1.4s and lightly slowing all enemies hit for 10/15/20/25/30% for 2.5s Range: 650 units Width: 300 (75 in the center) units Missile speed: 1000 units/second CD: 16/14/12/10/8

Think of something similar to a Braum ulti with the cracked ground kind of thing.

Not only does this give garen some actual utility, it removes a huge part of his binary nature.

Clearly it's not perfect and there are better ideas, but it's just an example.

Edit: There would have to be some sort of mobility moved into his kit elsewhere, like a speed boost, but this is just an example of how to fix garen's problems*

Legacy HydralphaJun 6, 20172 votes

At least it gives Garen a niche (anti-mobility) IMO Garen doesn't have much of an identity outside of working like an assassin (running in and killing a target) with the stats of a juggernaut.

Voluug13Jun 6, 20172 votes

They are kinda supposed to outstat other melee and that is their niche and IMO that is completly fine. In fact that is the point of juggernauts, that they counter champions that need to get close to them and trade being pretty kiteable for that. They are not supposed to be the adc killers unless the enemy team has no way to peel for their adc.

When some champions are designed to dance in circles around their enemy with lolmobility, their only realistic counter other that hope they are awful its champions with simply kits and simple mechanics that flat out ignore their juking. Juggernauts are those champions.

ArakadiaJun 6, 20172 votes

I don't think "I literally have better stats than you so i win" is an okay niche. Especially with how reliable their damage can be when your not a ranged carry or something else able to kite them.

Juggernauts don't need to just have better numbers. That's unfun, unsatisfying, and unfair. You can make juggernauts like Illaoi who have dodgable aspects or abilities like Darius Q.

ArakadiaJun 6, 20172 votes

Abilities like Darius Q or Warwick fear or Illaoi passive all are way better than abilities like Volivear W or Garen Q.

BrascusJun 6, 20172 votes

I've been imagining darius having his E to be held down, the longer its held the further it goes but the smaller its hitbox gets and the longer its animation lock becomes.

Juggernauts don't go to the enemy, the enemy goes to the juggernaut

The DeckownerJun 6, 20171 votes

IDK about you but Rito will probably add a skillshot.

zero356Jun 6, 20171 votes

And a three hit passive

ArkilusalJun 6, 20171 votes

Hrrm. Well, to avoid the stat-checking thing, we need ways to 'out-play' people right? Garen's a basic champ, or at least that's supposed to be a thing with him, I was wondering about the idea of a simple 'partner' mechanic not unlike old Zeke's Harbinger, specifically, about the idea of having Garen be a protector, and possibly tying that into his 'justice' mechanic. So let's say Garen does the 'bond' thing with Lux . I'm thinking it's something like while the other person is alive, Garen gets extra durability (Armor? HP? Damage Reduction a la Galio 's W?), so he can front-line properly. But if the other person dies/isn't in range, Garen doesn't get the buff. Possibly with the caveat that if someone kills the person Garen protecting they instantly become the villian.

Essentially, you outplay Garen by bypassing him and killing his partner. Meanwhile, this I imagine to somewhat encourage Garen to initiate into enemy teams since he's now got extra tank stats to make such things possible...Maybe a little iffy in the case of say, Anivia or TahmKench being Garen's partner but I think I might be on to something there.

Udyr...I dunno. Part of me wants to maybe have his Phoenix stance altered to give him a short 'fire-dash' forward to stick with it's AOE theme while granting him limited mobility. Also maybe complicates his decision making in terms of his kit-does he go for Tiger for damage or Phoenix for mobility?

Volibear...More LIGHTNING is a good thing. I wonder about the idea of maybe giving him something akin to Rift-Herald's big telegraphed cleave attack or something might help some. Part of me wants to kind of give him something akin to a 'battery' style where taking/dealing damage charges him up and he has to pick where&how he discharges, like after taking maybe 20% of his health he's fully charged and gets a maximum empowerment to the next ability he uses, so his flip gets a lightning blink, the roar maybe grants him a shield and bites become more powerful or echo out like his R currently does...

Teridax68Jun 6, 20171 votes

I think the answer to these champions, as with pretty much any other juggernaut, is to buff their base movement speed, and/or perhaps enhance their speed boosts, and subsequently either nerf their damage or give it more counterplay at melee range. There is a difference between being kiteable and being hard-countered by kiting, and juggernauts as a subclass fall too far into the latter. We don't give squishy champions 1000 or less base health at level 18 just because we want them to be weak to burst, for example, yet that's the sort of mentality being applied to juggernauts when they're given minimal range and mobility. The core problem right now is that juggernauts auto-lose to kiting and auto-win otherwise, which suggests their strength and weakness profiles are a little too exaggerated, as is true for many older champion designs.

FCJAAAAGOOOOJun 6, 20171 votes

Given that they all have %hp sustain I see no problem! They're all rad to me. Granted Garen's silly to play as even if you play him well.

VekknaJun 6, 20171 votes

I think Tryndamere's chicken-shout, Malphite's Q, Trundle's pillar, and Nasus' wither are pretty good models. Counterplay is a mix of conditions, area, or delays.

You mention the problem of these guys being stat-checks and having a hard time reaching a target. The opposite is also true. If you play a champ that can't out-run them or cc them long enough, they're absolutely overbearing and feel impossible to deal with.

Elkington VIJun 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I think Tryndamere's chicken-shout, Malphite's Q, Trundle's pillar, and Nasus' wither are pretty good models. Counterplay is a mix of conditions, area, or delays.

You mention the problem of these guys being stat-checks and having a hard time reaching a target. The opposite is also true. If you play a champ that can't out-run them or cc them long enough, they're absolutely overbearing and feel impossible to deal with.

How is dealing with Lee/Fiora any better as such champions?

GaliöJun 6, 20171 votes

I think maybe they should fill a different niche a d be about killing minions a d turrets at that point. If u can't kill the champ kill the nexus.

Elkington VIJun 6, 20171 votes

Make defensive itemization stronger, more interactive and reliable. It's the only way they can compete with more mobile, overloaded champions. Immobile melees are more focused around building-smart and good foresight than mechanics, since they can't rely on their kits alone to make plays. They have to pick their fights well or they don't get a second chance against anyone decent. That's just a common disadvantage to being fully melee and it's unfortunate that Riot doesn't treat these champions a little better.

I personally find most of the immobile melees to be far more interesting to watch than the flashy champions, especially at a high level of play.

The Yetii RiderJun 6, 20171 votes

Counterplay to juggernauts is kiting.

Lucian WaifuJun 6, 20171 votes

Make some items, like tank items, work better on melees than on ranged, also change the items in a way that pushes the meta away from more mobility to more of a balance between mobility and immobile depending on team comp.

XIII VanitasJun 7, 20171 votes

The answer is simple: Illaoi Darius windowed power and "unreliable" spells