I really dont like how she can stall for seemingly forever with her smoke and there's nothing anyone can do about it
Everytime I'm about to kill akali she tosses up the smoke and either escapes or wastes my time as I just sit there waiting for her to reappear
Warlord Rhinark32 votesOne thing that boggles my mind is that it costs no Energy to cast whatsoever.
In fact, it actually restores Energy.
What the fuck?
Hethalean13 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a0rOee7Z,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-08-07T13:48:54.277+0000)
One thing that boggles my mind is that it costs no Energy to cast whatsoever.
In fact, it actually restores Energy.
What the fuck?
Gotta fuel her ability to murder you. :)
DuskDaUmbreon15 votesBecause her Q has a base 100 (90?) energy cost, and her W has a pretty high cooldown.
If W cost energy, she couldn't actually do her full combo (2 Q's and an E) level 3 - she wouldn't have enough of an energy pool to pull it off.
Warlord Rhinark8 votesBecause her Q has a base 100 (90?) energy cost,
The Q's Energy cost depends on rank.
Rank 1 through 5 it's 100 / 95 / 90 / 85 / 80.
It's high, but it's not high enough to warrant a pseudo-invul to not only be entirely free, but also give her Energy back.
and her W has a pretty high cooldown.
You have to take into account how long the W lasts for though.
Technically, her W has a 17 second cooldown (at rank 1), but her W lasts for a flat 5, up to 8 second duration, meaning in reality it's only a 12 (9) second cooldown.
At rank 5, it goes down to 11, which then goes down to 6 (3) seconds when we take the duration into account.
This is not including any cooldown reduction she has.
Her W does not have a "pretty high" cooldown for how long it lasts.
If W cost energy, she couldn't actually do her full combo (2 Q's and an E)
She would, actually.
Her Q costs 80 Energy (at rank 5) and her E costs 30.
That's 190 Energy.
What you're saying is false. She is fully capable of doing a "full" combo without her W.
level 3 - she wouldn't have enough of an energy pool to pull it off.
She technically would.
Throw an E, that's 30 Energy used, dash in, hit them with your Kama, that's 10 Energy back, hit them with a Q, that's 100 Energy used, by this time, you should already have passively regenerated 20 Energy, couple that with the 10 Energy from her kama and you have another 100 Energy to use your Q again.
Again, what you're saying is false.
Blades in Exile4 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a0rOee7Z,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2018-08-07T15:32:47.528+0000)
The Q's Energy cost depends on rank.
Rank 1 through 5 it's 100 / 95 / 90 / 85 / 80.
It's high, but it's not high enough to warrant a pseudo-invul to not only be entirely free, but also give her Energy back.
You have to take into account how long the W lasts for though.
Technically, her W has a 17 second cooldown (at rank 1), but her W lasts for a flat 5, up to 8 second duration, meaning in reality it's only a 12 (9) second cooldown.
At rank 5, it goes down to 11, which then goes down to 6 (3) seconds when we take the duration into account.
This is not including any cooldown reduction she has.
Her W does not have a "pretty high" cooldown for how long it lasts.
She would, actually.
Her Q costs 80 Energy (at rank 5) and her E costs 30.
That's 190 Energy.
What you're saying is false. She is fully capable of doing a "full" combo without her W.
She technically would.
Throw an E, that's 30 Energy used, dash in, hit them with your Kama, that's 10 Energy back, hit them with a Q, that's 100 Energy used, by this time, you should already have passively regenerated 20 Energy, couple that with the 10 Energy from her kama and you have another 100 Energy to use your Q again.
Again, what you're saying is false.
Her W cooldown only starts counting down after it disappears so instead of saying 12 or 9 second cd it would have a 22 - 25 second cd. Also you say she would have enough energy for a fun combo if her shroud cost energy but you didn't include how she would get a full combo off with a should cost, you just showed if she didn't use shroud at all which is very unlikely.
Warlord Rhinark7 votes[{quoted}](name=Blades in Exile,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a0rOee7Z,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-07T16:29:34.141+0000)
Her W cooldown only starts counting down after it disappears
Okay. You got me there. I didn't know.
so instead of saying 12 or 9 second cd it would have a 22 - 25 second cd.
No because the duration cancels out the extra cooldown.
Also you say she would have enough energy for a fun combo
What do you mean by "fun" combo?
if her shroud cost energy but you didn't include how she would get a full combo off with a should cost,
What do you mean by "should" cost?
you just showed if she didn't use shroud at all which is very unlikely.
Of course I showed if she didn't use shroud at all.
Shroud wasn't part of the "full combo" that DuskDaUmbreon described so I didn't have any reason to include it.
Blades in Exile3 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a0rOee7Z,comment-id=00010001000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-07T16:44:12.926+0000)
Okay. You got me there. I didn't know.
No because the duration cancels out the extra cooldown.
What do you mean by "fun" combo?
I meant full combo, sorry for the typo.
What do you mean by "should" cost?
you said that the shroud should cost energy instead of restoring it in the first post but after saying that you didn't mention how much energy you thought it should cost
Of course I showed if she didn't use shroud at all.
Shroud wasn't part of the "full combo" that DuskDaUmbreon described so I didn't have any reason to include it.
yeah it wasn't in the combo DuskDaUmbreon mentioned, I didn't notice that my bad. I thought that if you say she can do a full combo with out needing extra energy then you should explain how you believe she would function with the added cost.
Warlord Rhinark2 votes[{quoted}](name=Blades in Exile,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a0rOee7Z,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-07T19:00:32.327+0000)
you said that the shroud should cost energy instead of restoring it in the first post but after saying that you didn't mention how much energy you thought it should cost
I'm thinking it should be like the old Akali W and cost 60 / 55 / 50 / 45 / 40 Energy.
This means you have two combos at your disposal throughout the early-mid game.
A. You go offensive and use 2 Qs and one E, meaning you'll deal more damage at the risk of being caught.
B. You go for the defensive option and use 1 Q, 1 E and 1 W. You'll deal less damage, but you'll have an escape for the fight.
To compensate, the amount of Energy Assassin's Mark restores should be buffed to 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 from 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30.
This would mean that in the late game, with the increased Energy restore and the reduced Energy cost on W, basically canceling eachother out, you'll be able to use more abilities in your combos as the game progresses.
XeroKimo1 votesI'd like to drop in to say a few things.
The way Riot has reworked Akali has kind of made Akali's W only work when it's free while restoring energy over costing energy. You're suggestion will leave Akali horrendously underpowered, and there's nothing left in her power budget to allow her to be buffed if a change such as making Akali's W cost energy over restore.
The best we can do is to make her less of an annoyance to lane against while keeping that late game power, I'm currently making a mega patch for champions as a for fun project while working on it seriously and provide numbers and such, but here's my current plans for her.
Passive:
What does this do for Akali right now? Currently Akali is very oppressive against melee champions due to not allowing them to retaliate against her so the shroud gets reduced in early levels, but since Akali is a very short ranged champion, she can't effectively trade against ranged opponents, and her shroud is what helps her close the gap to land a few Q's. The energy restore changes is to make procing her passive matter more in order to spam Q, over being able to get a free Q from dropping her shroud
Warlord Rhinark1 votesPassive:
- Energy restored changed to 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 at levels 1 / 6 / 11 / 16 from 10 / 15 /20 / 25 / 30 at 1 / 5 / 9 / 13 / 17
I don't know.
I think 10 is a little low. It almost doesn't feel like you're proccing it.
I think 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 is better, if we're going by a 4 rank scale rather than a 5 rank scale.
W:
- Base duration changed to 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 from 5 / 5.5 / 6 / 6.5 / 7
I don't really like changing the base duration. It feels fine as it is, since it allows the Akali player to gather her thoughts and plan out the next course of action.
By only giving it a duration of 3 seconds, it just encourages a get out of jail free card, rather than something you use tactically in a fight.
Also, a 7 second duration late game is way too long, especially taking into account that the ability's duration can be increased by jumping in and out, potentially making it lasts for 10 seconds.
I think 5 seconds is the best base duration. It's also how long old Akali's shroud lasted.
- Energy restored reduced to 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 from 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 / 80
Meh.
I still want it to cost Energy.
I didn't mention this at first in my comment to Blades in Exile, but in addition to increasing the Energy restore on Assassin's Mark, I also think Akali's Q should have it's Energy cost reduced to 80 / 75 / 70 / 65 / 60 from 100 / 95 / 90 / 85 / 80.
How does this sound? Will it still make her "horrendously underpowered"?
- The speed which the shroud expands increased and slows down over time
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
Do you mean it expands really quickly at first and then expands slowly?
What's wrong with how quickly it expands right now?
What does this do for Akali right now? Currently Akali is very oppressive against melee champions due to not allowing them to retaliate against her so the shroud gets reduced in early levels, but since Akali is a very short ranged champion, she can't effectively trade against ranged opponents, and her shroud is what helps her close the gap to land a few Q's.
And why is it Akali has to do great in every match up?
Why is it she can't just be strong against Melee champions early, but she also has to be strong against Ranged early?
Why can't I choose a ranged champion to have an advantage until level 6 where she's going to have a 600 range engage anyway?
The energy restore changes is to make procing her passive matter more in order to spam Q, over being able to get a free Q from dropping her shroud
Sure, so why not just remove the entire restoring Energy from W to begin with?
XeroKimo1 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a0rOee7Z,comment-id=000100010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-08T05:57:24.094+0000)
I don't really like changing the base duration. It feels fine as it is, since it allows the Akali player to gather her thoughts and plan out the next course of action.
By only giving it a duration of 3 seconds, it just encourages a get out of jail free card, rather than something you use tactically in a fight.
Also, a 7 second duration late game is way too long, especially taking into account that the ability's duration can be increased by jumping in and out, potentially making it lasts for 10 seconds.
I think 5 seconds is the best base duration. It's also how long old Akali's shroud lasted.
I don't think reducing the duration to 3 would make it become a jail free card, in melee match ups, it's still more than enough time to be able to play around with your opponent, while against ranged match ups, it should get enough time of using it's movement speed buff to close the gap, hit a Q and run back if you want to trade, or go in in response to a gank with an ally, while she does have her E, it's not much of an engage tool.
I didn't mention this at first in my comment to Blades in Exile, but in addition to increasing the Energy restore on Assassin's Mark, I also think Akali's Q should have it's Energy cost reduced to 80 / 75 / 70 / 65 / 60 from 100 / 95 / 90 / 85 / 80.
Reducing the energy cost will allow her to spam more easily, while you did propose the change to put an energy cost on her shroud, that'd still leaves her in an under powered state, she'd require some damage buffs elsewhere which should be avoided as her assassination combo is in a fairly healthy state aside from her W, or up the energy refunds and I don't mean like the small changes we had for her passive, I mean it'll require something more like 40-60 based on level, while sounding nice, it'll definitely give her upper hands in extended battles which shouldn't be a strength of assassins
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean it expands really quickly at first and then expands slowly? What's wrong with how quickly it expands right now?
There's nothing wrong with how quickly it expands, this rate of expansion is just there to accommodate the lower base duration in early levels, allowing her to close gaps with ranged targets, without actually being seen.
And why is it Akali has to do great in every match up? Why is it she can't just be strong against Melee champions early, but she also has to be strong against Ranged early? Why can't I choose a ranged champion to have an advantage until level 6 where she's going to have a 600 range engage anyway?
In a nutshell, Akali can't do anything against ranged champions, yes at level 6 she has a 600 range engage, but most range match ups in the mid lane surpasses that 600 range. Akali right now is in a good spot, in a sense I can't tell if she's a tad too strong, or a tad too weak, but there's definitely some wiggle room to actually stop her from being an annoyance to lane against, while still keeping her current power
The W is required in order to play against range match ups or else she can't do anything against ranged and that's a given.
Sure, so why not just remove the entire restoring Energy from W to begin with?
W restore is there for a reason, and it's not just to justify a high energy cost on her Q, the current uses for her W is:
Compared to other energy champs, her energy restore only works on champions in order to begin the ability to proc the restore, so giving a restore on her W, helps balances things out.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesI don't think reducing the duration to 3 would make it become a jail free card, in melee match ups, it's still more than enough time to be able to play around with your opponent, while against ranged match ups, it should get enough time of using it's movement speed buff to close the gap, hit a Q and run back if you want to trade, or go in in response to a gank with an ally, while she does have her E, it's not much of an engage tool.
I mean.
That's a fair point.
But why the increased duration at ranks 4 and 5?
Why not just keep it at 3 / 3.5 / 4 / 4.5 / 5 seconds?
Reducing the energy cost will allow her to spam more easily,
It will, but if she spams her Q too much she'll run into the risk of not having enough Energy to use her W, meaning if she wants to play offensively there's risk involved in it.
And that's what Assassins are all about. High risk, high reward champions.
And her current W is everything but high risk.
while you did propose the change to put an energy cost on her shroud, that'd still leaves her in an under powered state,
Geez how much compensation does she really need for not having a get out of jail free card?
she'd require some damage buffs elsewhere which should be avoided as her assassination combo is in a fairly healthy state aside from her W,
Why are damage buffs the only answer?
I can think of several buffs that don't affect her damage at all.
Passive buffs:
Aforementioned Energy refund increase. Maybe increased to 35 / 40 / 45 / 50.
Bonus movement speed duration increased to 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 (based on level) seconds from 1 / 2 / 3 seconds (based on level).
Swinging Kama duration increased to 5 seconds from 4 seconds.
Swinging Kama basic attacks now heal Akali for 5 - 50 (based on level) (+ 50% bonus AD) (+ 50% AP) health.
Five Point Strike buffs:
Aforementioned Energy cost decrease.
Cooldown reduced to 1 second from 1.5 seconds.
Slow duration increased to 1 second from 0.5 seconds.
Healing percentage increased to 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% from 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40%.
Twilight Shroud buffs:
Cooldown reduced to 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 seconds from 17 / 15.5 / 14 / 12.5 / 11 seconds.
Bonus movement speed increased to 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% from 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40%.
Now causes Akali to blink in the direction it was cast in.
Akali now gains vision of the area Twilight Shroud was cast in.
Enemies that walk through the smoke are slowed by 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25% (middle of the ring doesn't count).
Shuriken Flip buffs:
Target range increased to 750 from 650.
Cooldown reduced to 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 seconds from 16 / 14.5 / 13 / 11.5 / 10 seconds.
Perfect Execution buffs:
Cooldown changed to 125 / 100 / 75 seconds from 120 / 100 / 80 seconds.
Stun duration increased to 1 second from 0.5 seconds.
If all of this still isn't enough compensation for a measly 60 - 40 Energy cost on W, I don't know what is.
or up the energy refunds and I don't mean like the small changes we had for her passive, I mean it'll require something more like 40-60 based on level,
How is the Energy restore on Passive cancelling out the Energy cost of the W, as well as the reduced Energy cost on Q not enough?
while sounding nice, it'll definitely give her upper hands in extended battles which shouldn't be a strength of assassins
But Akali is literally about extended fights.
The whole gimmick behind her W is literally just to extend a fight, and her passive is also about jumping in and out and in and out, in extended fights.
Her ultimate deals bonus damage based on missing health, meaning she has to wear down the enemy, meaning she has to be good in an extended fight.
Akali would be the exception to this rule.
There's nothing wrong with how quickly it expands, this rate of expansion is just there to accommodate the lower base duration in early levels, allowing her to close gaps with ranged targets, without actually being seen.
Why does everything need compensation?
In a nutshell, Akali can't do anything against ranged champions, yes at level 6 she has a 600 range engage, but most range match ups in the mid lane surpasses that 600 range.
And this is a problem because?
Why is the range advantage so unfair to have?
Akali right now is in a good spot,
I beg to differ, but opinions are opinions.
in a sense I can't tell if she's a tad too strong, or a tad too weak,
I'd say she's strong, it's just all the new players trying her out that's distorting her win rate.
but there's definitely some wiggle room to actually stop her from being an annoyance to lane against, while still keeping her current power
Could you perhaps elaborate on this "wiggle room" you're talking about, if you feel inclined?
I'm not entirely sure I know exactly what you're talking about.
The W is required in order to play against range match ups or else she can't do anything against ranged and that's a given.
But I'm not talking about removing the W entirely.
She can use it to engage with just as fine, it just won't be free AND restore her damage.
Also, what do you mean by "she can't do anything against ranged"?
She still has her E and R.
Just because she can't do anything against ranged the moment she enters lane, doesn't mean she's entirely useless against them.
W restore is there for a reason, and it's not just to justify a high energy cost on her Q, the current uses for her W is:
- Use energy restore to be able to use a Q
- Duel opponents
- Close gap with ranged targets
- Use as an escape tool
The last two things have nothing to do with the Energy restore though.
Compared to other energy champs, her energy restore only works on champions in order to begin the ability to proc the restore, so giving a restore on her W, helps balances things out.
But of all the Energy champions, Akali is also supposed to fight and duel the most, so it makes sense.
XeroKimo1 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a0rOee7Z,comment-id=00010001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-08T10:19:09.751+0000)
I mean.
That's a fair point.
But why the increased duration at ranks 4 and 5?
Why not just keep it at 3 / 3.5 / 4 / 4.5 / 5 seconds?
Compared to other assassins, she doesn't have as much mobility, 7 seconds late game makes sense as a way to bind her time in team fights to either continue fighting, or make an escape. 5 seconds is too little as if it's only being used to bind her time, she wouldn't be extending it at all. Even so, AoE and skill shots can still hit her, and a Sweeper lens will help track her position
It will, but if she spams her Q too much she'll run into the risk of not having enough Energy to use her W, meaning if she wants to play offensively there's risk involved in it.
But Akali is literally about extended fights.
The whole gimmick behind her W is literally just to extend a fight, and her passive is also about jumping in and out and in and out, in extended fights.
These 2 points are contradictory, if she's supposed to excel in extended fights, she requires being able to use her Q often, and she also requires her W in order to extend a fight, but if she gets energy cost on her W, her ability to spam Q will go down, and she gets worse at extended fights. Which requires that energy refund buff I mentioned before which is pretty toxic
While her current assassination style isn't as bursty as other assassins, it's still possible to 100-0 squishy enemies sometime in mid-late game in under 1 second, but aside from that, she'll need an extra second or 2, to be able to proc her passive and use a second Q for a standard assassination combo, which requires her W or else she'd be force to retreat as akali doesn't have the headroom to survive that amount of time in team fights, and depending on the match up in solo, cause both ways she'll be bursted down before she gets the chance to do so
Why is the range advantage so unfair to have?
Being range isn't an advantage that's unfair to have for akali, it's a matter of if a champion can deal with ranged or not, if we created a champions that had 150 AA range, all it's abilities are <300 range, except it's ult is a 1000 dash range with a 200 second cooldown, would you say that, "this champion is fine against range, at level 6 he can get close to it's target", you probably wouldn't, because that's akali, if you hinder her ability to use shroud against ranged match ups.
It's also why it'd leave her pretty underpowered, and need a good amount of compensation buffs if something like making her shroud cost energy were to happen
Could you perhaps elaborate on this "wiggle room" you're talking about, if you feel inclined?
Wiggle room is exactly that, being able to change her, without really affecting her overall strengths and weaknesses, and her overall power, I changed nothing in terms of damage, and the total energy refunds she'd get if she procs 2 passives has not changed, what has changed is how she gets her energy refunds, and how she'll have to play in the early game as she's a bit more vulnerable as she can't just sit in her shroud to avoid damage
I'm not entirely sure I know exactly what you're talking about.
But I'm not talking about removing the W entirely.
She can use it to engage with just as fine, it just won't be free AND restore her damage.
Also, what do you mean by "she can't do anything against ranged"?
She still has her E and R.
Like I said, her E is an unreliable engage tool, it's more of an escape or chase tool, while her R too long of a cooldown to even count, if it's down, it's nearly impossible to close the gap, using her W is what closes that gap, and if she uses that W to close the gap, she is still sacrificing a few things, like:
Just because she can't do anything against ranged the moment she enters lane, doesn't mean she's entirely useless against them.
Yes she will be useless, none of us just had the time to learn to play against her, but the moment people do, Akali wouldn't be able to touch them, she'd have to burn her first half of her ult only as a gap closer, and not to damage them, if she doesn't even have the chance to lower there HP, from using shroud and Q, it hinders her even more so to only use her R1 as a gap closer, cause that's 120/240/360 + whatever scaling potential damage lost, + a passive proc. There is no way she can stand a chance against ranged opponents
Warlord Rhinark1 votesCompared to other assassins, she doesn't have as much mobility,
She still has more mobility than someone like Rengar.
7 seconds late game makes sense as a way to bind her time in team fights to either continue fighting, or make an escape. 5 seconds is too little as if it's only being used to bind her time, she wouldn't be extending it at all.
5 seconds seem like plenty of time, it was what the old Akali had and it worked fine.
Especially when you take into account that she can extend the duration for up to 8 seconds if she keeps going in and out.
Even so, AoE and skill shots can still hit her, and a Sweeper lens will help track her position
They would do so regardless of duration.
Making the duration last longer only sets her up for being hit by more AOE spells.
These 2 points are contradictory, if she's supposed to excel in extended fights, she requires being able to use her Q often, and she also requires her W in order to extend a fight, but if she gets energy cost on her W, her ability to spam Q will go down, and she gets worse at extended fights. Which requires that energy refund buff I mentioned before which is pretty toxic
Why is an Energy refund on her passive more "toxic" than an Energy refund on W?
The Energy refund on passive would mean you actually have to do something (exit the circle and then hit with kama).
Energy refund on W is just press a button.
I'd say the Energy refund on W is more toxic to be honest.
While her current assassination style isn't as bursty as other assassins, it's still possible to 100-0 squishy enemies sometime in mid-late game in under 1 second,
And this is healthy for the game?
but aside from that, she'll need an extra second or 2, to be able to proc her passive and use a second Q for a standard assassination combo, which requires her W or else she'd be force to retreat as akali doesn't have the headroom to survive that amount of time in team fights, and depending on the match up in solo, cause both ways she'll be bursted down before she gets the chance to do so
Again, you're making it seem like I've said to completely remove the W.
I haven't.
The only thing I've said Is I think just mindlessly spamming your spells and then pressing W when you run out of Energy feels lazy.
Being range isn't an advantage that's unfair to have for akali, it's a matter of if a champion can deal with ranged or not,
Which is why, again, I haven't said to completely remove the W.
The only thing I'm asking for her being able to use her W is that she should sacrifice her burst a little for it.
Right now she not only gets to do her burst and have a defensive spell, her defensive spell actually gives her MORE burst (defense = offense?).
if we created a champions that had 150 AA range, all it's abilities are <300 range, except it's ult is a 1000 dash range with a 200 second cooldown, would you say that, "this champion is fine against range, at level 6 he can get close to it's target",
What about Garen?
He doesn't exactly excel against ranged opponents, yet he's still managing pretty high win rates.
you probably wouldn't, because that's akali,
You're heavily exaggerating though.
Her Q clearly has a 500 range, E has 650 and her ultimate doesn't have a 200 second cooldown, it has a 120 second cooldown.
You're rigging the numbers.
if you hinder her ability to use shroud against ranged match ups.
I'm not.
I'm hindering her ability to get free burst.
She can still use her W to engage as she pleases.
It's also why it'd leave her pretty underpowered, and need a good amount of compensation buffs if something like making her shroud cost energy were to happen
For someone that can supposedly "100-0 squishy enemies sometime in mid-late game in UNDER 1 second", you're making Akali sound incredibly weak.
And I've already made a list of compensation buffs that you've failed to address.
Wiggle room is exactly that, being able to change her, without really affecting her overall strengths and weaknesses, and her overall power, I changed nothing in terms of damage, and the total energy refunds she'd get if she procs 2 passives has not changed, what has changed is how she gets her energy refunds, and how she'll have to play in the early game as she's a bit more vulnerable as she can't just sit in her shroud to avoid damage
Exactly, be more vulnerable.
Why should an Assassin (which is supposed to be squishy) have get out of jail free cards for, well, for free?
There should be at least some sort of risk to it, as Assassins are generally supposed to be risky champions, not safe picks.
Like I said, her E is an unreliable engage tool, it's more of an escape or chase tool, while her R too long of a cooldown to even count,
Rengar's only engage tool is his ultimate too but I don't see him getting tons of compensation buffs.
if it's down, it's nearly impossible to close the gap, using her W is what closes that gap, and if she uses that W to close the gap, she is still sacrificing a few things, like:
- In combat safety
- Energy refund in order to use her Q again, this is especially harmful if she's full energy
She's not really sacrificing in combat safety since she can always use her E on her shroud to dash away, should things get too dicy.
And she's not even supposed to have the Energy refund at all in my opinion.
All other Energy based champions only have one source of Energy refund (with the exception of Shen), why should Akali have two?
Yes she will be useless, none of us just had the time to learn to play against her, but the moment people do, Akali wouldn't be able to touch them, she'd have to burn her first half of her ult only as a gap closer, and not to damage them, if she doesn't even have the chance to lower there HP, from using shroud and Q, it hinders her even more so to only use her R1 as a gap closer, cause that's 120/240/360 + whatever scaling potential damage lost, + a passive proc. There is no way she can stand a chance against ranged opponents
I still think all the compensation buffs I listed would be enough to balance it out.
XeroKimo1 votesThe compensation buff may balance it out, but why go through changing everything from her kit, instead of just lowering the duration of her W early game it's a simple power shift that doesn't have to go through everything you pulled through. She does lose burst when using her W first though because she can't make use of the energy refund then so the changes you make is really pointless and there just because you wanted it to cost something ELSE.
And akali isn't the only champion with 2 energy refunds, Kennen has it as well and every other energy champ's refund mechanic is more reliable and more at ready compared to Akali. Why does putting the energy refund solely on her passive toxic? Because it has to either: A - Be more reliable B - Refund more energy
You can't make it more reliable because her main ability is a low cd, and so then you'd have to change that too, and it'll have to change fundamentally how current akali works You can do B, but once again it's toxic because it'll probably reach the point where procing her passive means enough energy to pretty much refund Q which might as well remove the energy cost from it
Warlord Rhinark1 votesThe compensation buff may balance it out, but why go through changing everything from her kit, to just lowering the duration of her W early game it's a simple power shift that doesn't have to go through everything you pulled through.
Because I don't just want it to have a lower duration. That's what you wanted.
I want it to not be a get out of jail free card that also gives her more burst.
She does lose burst when using her W first though because she can't make use of the energy refund then so the changes you make is really pointless and there just because you wanted it to cost something ELSE.
She's not losing burst, she's just not gaining any.
But I actually want her to lose burst by using her defensive ability, because it's supposed to be defensive, not offensive.
And akali isn't the only champion with 2 energy refunds, Kennen has it as well
Okay solid my bad on that one. I forgot.
and every other energy champ's refund mechanic is more reliable and more at ready compared to Akali.
I'd say Akali's W Energy restore is more reliable than Zed's, since one requires you to hit a button and the other requires you to hit two abilities on the same target.
Why does putting the energy refund solely on her Q toxic?
The Q?
I'm not talking about Energy refund on Q.
I'm talking about the passive.
You can do B, but once again it's toxic because it'll probably reach the point where procing her passive means enough energy to pretty much refund Q which might as well remove the energy cost from it
Her W already refunds her whole Q cost at rank 5.
I don't see why that can't be shifted over to her passive so she actually has to work for it.
XeroKimo1 votesI made a typo for the energy restore, the difference between restoring a Q energy from her W compared to her passive is it's a one time thing, if we made her passive restore enough energy on her Q, it means she gets to do it continuously, that's for option B. Akali's current W energy restore is the most reliable out there yes, but the moment you make it cost energy, Zed's energy restore mechanic is still plenty more reliable than Akali's
Warlord Rhinark1 votesI made a typo for the energy restore, the difference between restoring a Q energy from her W compared to her passive is it's a one time thing, if we made her passive restore enough energy on her Q, it means she gets to do it continuously, that's for option B.
And shouldn't her being able to do it continuously be enough compensation for the fact that the W now costs Energy?
Akali's current W energy restore is the most reliable out there yes, but the moment you make it cost energy, Zed's energy restore mechanic is still plenty more reliable than Akali's
Sure, I'll agree.
XeroKimo1 votesIt's definitely enough compensation, but it's unhealthy, the whole point of energy champions is extended battles aren't their forte as they're made to run out of energy mid fight, refund mechanics help alleviate that weakness because they can't get any more energy than what they currently have unlike mana, but it's only really made to be able to use maybe 1 extra rotation of their abilities, or when you aren't brawling, to be able to have full energy back quicker when you decide to go all in.
Of course I should say there's an exception being Lee sin, Rito's favorite LCS boi, where his energy mechanic encourages you to not spam your abilities and weave autos every ability use, but the chances of being able to optimally get refund every auto in a normal fight is pretty low, so he's still made to run out of energy mid fight. Then there's Shen, but his energy cost and refund mechanic is made to not allow him to run. The difference between Shen being able to keep his energy up, compared to Akali's, is the fact that Shen's still works regardless of the unit hit, except for his E, which is only on monsters and champions, along side being a champion not meant to kill targets with 1-2 rotations. Akali on the other hand, only works on champions, and is made to burst a target down. If both option A (more reliable refund), and B (higher energy refund) where to be combined, it'll be overall much more of an unhealthy change then it was for just option B, where she's just allowed to spam Q into auto energy refund nonchalantly. For reminder option A can't be taken because her Q is just too spammable, so it must be changed in order to take option A into consideration
Warlord Rhinark1 votesIt's definitely enough compensation, but it's unhealthy,
I'm not exactly guessing we're going to go anywhere with this conversation, seeing as we have differing opinions about what's unhealthy and what isn't.
I personally think it's unhealthy to have a get out of jail free card that's not only entirely free to use, but also increases your burst. I'd much rather have the Energy restore on her Passive mean something, and increase skill expression by rewarding Akali players that continuously darts in and out of combat to proc it.
However, this doesn't seem to be your opinion.
I guess we can only agree to disagree at this point.
the whole point of energy champions is extended battles aren't their forte as they're made to run out of energy mid fight, refund mechanics help alleviate that weakness because they can't get any more energy than what they currently have unlike mana, but it's only really made to be able to use maybe 1 extra rotation of their abilities, or when you aren't brawling, to be able to have full energy back quicker when you decide to go all in.
Of course I should say there's an exception being Lee sin, Rito's favorite LCS boi, where his energy mechanic encourages you to not spam your abilities and weave autos every ability use, but the chances of being able to optimally get refund every auto in a normal fight is pretty low, so he's still made to run out of energy mid fight. Then there's Shen, but his energy cost and refund mechanic is made to not allow him to run.
The difference between Shen being able to keep his energy up, compared to Akali's, is the fact that Shen's still works regardless of the unit hit, except for his E, which is only on monsters and champions, along side being a champion not meant to kill targets with 1-2 rotations.
Again, Akali would be the exception to this.
Her passive is made for extended fights where you hit and run hit and run and so on.
Her W just screams extended fights more than anything.
And the missing health damage on her ult encourages being able to weather down the opponent before going in for the kill.
I really think Akali should be shifted more towards extended fights, being rewarded for proccing the passive whilst adding a little bit of risk to her kit by making her defensive spell cost Energy, meaning she has to be careful about not just blowing her load on someone and then escaping for free.
But that's apparently just my opinion.
Akali on the other hand, only works on champions, and is made to burst a target down. If both option A (more reliable refund), and B (higher energy refund) where to be combined, it'll be overall much more of an unhealthy change then it was for just option B, where she's just allowed to spam Q into auto energy refund nonchalantly.
"Nonchalantly"?
Her having to constantly go in and out and in and out is supposedly more "nonchalant" than just pressing a button and free Energy?
For reminder option A can't be taken because her Q is just too spammable, so it must be changed in order to take option A into consideration
If I say "reduce it's damage" are you just going to tell me Akali is going to be "horrendously underpowered by this change" again?
SugeMinPikk1 votesIt's because her main damaging ability costs half her energy pool to encourage her to use w offensively
Warlord Rhinark1 votesIt's because her main damaging ability costs half her energy pool to encourage her to use w offensively
But why not just lower her main damaging ability's cost then?
SugeMinPikk1 votesBecause that doesn't encourage offensive w use
How much more boring would it be if she was allowed to hold on to w until she needs it for defense?
Warlord Rhinark1 votesBecause that doesn't encourage offensive w use
It's not supposed to be an offensive spell to begin with.
Like OP said, it's supposed to be a stall/fight extender.
SugeMinPikk1 votesAn ability can be both offensive and defensive, you know.. counterstrike, leap strike, safeguard, spirit rush, hookshot, playful/trickster, etc..
Warlord Rhinark1 votesAn ability can be both offensive and defensive, you know.. counterstrike, leap strike, safeguard, spirit rush, hookshot, playful/trickster, etc..
Yes, but Akali's W has almost always been solely a defensive ability.
Old Akali's W didn't have an Energy refund mechanic, and she was fine.
I don't see why new Akali is any different.
SugeMinPikk1 votesOld W was a short blink and a move speed boost and canceled q animation. Blade used it offensively quite often.
Old Akali had a single combo that lasted half a second and energy management was a non-issue. New akali q has a high cost because w restores energy, and w restores energy because q has a high cost. This interaction contributes to new akali's relatively high skill floor.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesOld W was a short blink and a move speed boost and canceled q animation.
I didn't know it could cancel Q animation. That seems more like a bug than a feature.
But otherwise, I find a short blink and movement speed boost (which Akali's new W has any way) to be just as defensive as it is offensive.
However, adding a free Energy refund makes it more offensive than defensive.
Old Akali had a single combo that lasted half a second and energy management was a non-issue. New akali q has a high cost because w restores energy, and w restores energy because q has a high cost. This interaction contributes to new akali's relatively high skill floor.
But why can't the Energy restore be moved over to her passive so you actually have to work for it?
The Energy restore on W is literally just press a button.
If we put more emphasis on the Energy restore on the passive (which is laughably low right now), it'd increase Akali's high skill floor even more.
Oleandervine25 votesThat's not so bad. I DESPISE WITH A BURNING HATRED the fact that she can protect herself from turret fire with her Shroud. It's utter bullshit.
Ifneth3 votesThat's not so bad. I DESPISE WITH A BURNING HATRED the fact that she can protect herself from turret fire with her Shroud. It's utter bullshit.
She takes a turret shot every time she attacks while the turret is ready to shoot, though.
Tahminatrix 4 votesThen she wont hit you until right before the turret shoots a minion.
Leetri2 votesYou could just walk away then? You know exactly where she is, so don't stand in the smoke when she has a minion wave under your tower.
Oleandervine1 votesYou realize how nonsensical and how much power is in that ability if your response to it, while she's in range of a structure that is supposed to deter enemies and defend you, is to get away from your defensive structure? Turrets are supposed to be one of the highest areas of defense for your team. They are supposed to provide you with a safe haven against enemies, and that's part of the tactics of the game. If Akali's Shroud is forcing you to remove yourself from your own turret range, that's entirely fucked up and signifies there's some game health issues with it..
Leetri1 votesI mean, do you still stay under your tower when a Tryndamere with ult is right there next to you? Or Volibear? Or Mundo? Or basically any tanky champion with high damage? Or do you stand out in the open when the opponent has a Blitzcrank? You gotta respect their areas and what they can do. If Akali puts her shroud down under your tower you can take like 4 steps away so she can't instantly retreat back to her shroud. I don't mean you should run into the middle of your lane and have a dance party.
Oleandervine1 votesThe difference here is that Akali already has a large amount of tools in her kit that make her a massive threat, so also zoning you from beneath your own tower, when she's supposed to be a squishy assassin, is just not conducive to being healthy for the game.
Sure, Tryndamere and Voli and Mundo can be threats under your tower, but they're assassins either, and they also have a more limited array of tools in their kits that makes them far less of a zoning threat.
Ifneth2 votes[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a0rOee7Z,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-07T23:51:24.253+0000)
Then she wont hit you until right before the turret shoots a minion.
But then you can back off when it does, and that’s only one hit. She can’t all-in insta-burst you like Old Akali could.
Beacon Academy3 votesThen she can hit the tower all she wants lmao
SpecterVonBaren1 votesWHY?! Are you really suggesting an Akali is going to run under your turret and use her W just to hit the turret a few times?
Beacon Academy3 votesPerson A: I hate how she can protect herself from turret damage!
Person B: But she still gets attacked by the turret when she attacks from the shroud.
Person A: Not if she has a minion wave and times her attacks for when the turret attacks them.
Person B: Then back away from the shroud if she has minions.
Person C: But then she gets free hits on the tower...
Person D:
WHY?! Are you really suggesting an Akali is going to run under your turret and use her W just to hit the turret a few times?
What else is she going to do then...?
SpecterVonBaren1 votesBecause clearly she built like an ADC....
Beacon Academy3 votesYou haven't followed the conversation have you?
IF THE ADVICE IS TO MOVE AWAY FROM THE TURRET WHEN AKALI SHROUDS UNDER IT WITH A MINION WAVE
AND NO ONE IS GOING NEAR THE TOWER TO DEFEND IT DUE TO SHROUD + MINIONS BEING THERE
THEN AKALI GETS FREE HITS ON THE TOWER
This is unhealthy if that is the only advice you get vs someone under your own tower.
And if you're still stuck on the whole "she ain't AD brah"
Then what the fuck do you do when you play a mage champ and no one is around the enemy tower as your minion wave crashes into it?
Like holy shit dude, I shouldn't have to hold your hand and explain this shit.
HommeGoujon22 votesCOMING SOON: Riot releases a new champ who can ignore turrets shots and hit nexus while other turrets are still standing while being COMPLETELY invisible and untargettable. Passive: hitting a turret/inhibitor also deals damage to all other enemy turrets/inhibitors. Have fun.
Beatrice falls45 votes
rework can devour towers lmao
OtterlyLost15 votesI could deal with everything else in Akali's kit, honestly, but her shroud. Her shroud is super frustrating to play against. You dont feel outplayed. It's the same feeling I get with fighting a vayne post 6.
OnlyVelKozOnly7 votesThe whole design is completely awful. BuT sHe HaS LEsS daSHeS!!! Yeah but on a lower cooldown and given to her at an earlier level so it FEELS like more dashes. Bad design by a bad designer.
DuskDaUmbreon21 votes"Lower cooldown" my ass.
Have you looked at her ult cooldown?
ahferroin76 votesThis:
nothing anyone can do about it
Is patently false. Unless you have no untargeted abilities that either do damage or have associated hard CC, you can do something about it. Fun fact, even though she's concealed and untargetable, you can still hit her with skillshots and AoE effects (same goes for anybody under a real invisibility effect). You even have a reasonably good idea where she is, simply because there's smoke there (unlike Shaco for example, who could be anywhere after he uses Deceive).
This:
sit there waiting for her to reappear
Is your issue. This tells me you're either playing someone with exactly zero untargeted damage or CC (and thus should generally not be fighting her solo to begin with), or that you've already burnt all your CD's trying to kill her (and therefore probably would not have killed her anyway if she didn't have the shroud).
D357R0Y3R5 votesif she stays forever in her smoke the duration is lower tho
