with the rework Udyr is getting, what will happen to shyvana?

Big Lincoln·Jul 12, 2017·4 votes·412 views

on PBE udyr has become a massive hybrid damage threat, and as a juggernaut he shares shyvana's niche of being a fast-moving, splitpushing/dueling monster

only udyr is FAR LESS reliant on damage items -- he only needs a triforce and can go completely tank otherwise, where Shyvana needs 2 or 3 damage items to not fall off later. so it seems like udyr is just going to be better version of the two; he's more mobile, still does very high damage, and scales into a super-tank now. the only thing shyvana seems to hold over PBE udyr is that she can throw herself into a fight easier and she does slightly more damage to dragons

will we see changes to Shyvana in the future that give her a more unique identity, so that she isn't forced to compete so heavily with Udyr?

12 Comments

Asayake 5150glowJul 12, 20172 votes

Shyvana has far more AoE damage than Udyr, she should be fine. She'll be the more teamfight oriented of the two.

She's not weak right now, while Udyr is.

RengoooJul 12, 20171 votes

Just because she has aoe damage doesn't mean she can team fight.. Infact she is pretty aweful at it, her damage being completely reliant on multiple damage items is the issue, build enough to do any meaningful damage and you will get blown up in the fight. Build to tanky and you will just walk around dealing W'a measly base damage to every one whilst not bringing any cc to compensate.

Asayake 5150glowJul 12, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Just because she has aoe damage doesn't mean she can team fight.. Infact she is pretty aweful at it, her damage being completely reliant on multiple damage items is the issue, build enough to do any meaningful damage and you will get blown up in the fight. Build to tanky and you will just walk around dealing W'a measly base damage to every one whilst not bringing any cc to compensate.

Wtf?

You realize one of the most popular Shyvana builds is Titanic into Cinderhulk into full tank, right?

Shyvana's a juggernaut, she doesn't need many damage items. Titanic does a ton of damage, accompanied with Shyvana's high Q DPS. Not to mention she's still a reasonable tank with Bloodrazor/Titanic because she has a lot of defensive steroids (ult health, passive resists) for a juggernaut. That's just Vanguard Shyv, you can also go diver Shyv where you have Bloodrazor, Titanic, Triforce, Frozen Mallet/Steraks. You're not supposed to ult in first, but use it bypass front line and oneshot a carry and then do DPS. Triforce, Titanic, and Steraks/Frozen Mallet giving health means you're not squishy. Steraks gives big shield when they try bursting, and more Triforce damage. Frozen Mallet is super tanky.

RengoooJul 12, 20171 votes

The point of this thread is that Udyr straight up has more damage than Shyvana now with less items. And they are increadibly similar champions, sure, Shyvana has better aoe, but it really isn't much of a factor for comparison considering how low it is.

Also yes I know Shyv with Titanic + full tank is a comon build, but she is in no way particulary strong like this (most other duelists will butcher her when she has built like this, unless of course she has farmed up an absolute storm or is just fed).

Asayake 5150glowJul 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The point of this thread is that Udyr straight up has more damage than Shyvana now with less items. And they are increadibly similar champions, sure, Shyvana has better aoe, but it really isn't much of a factor for comparison considering how low it is.

But it's not low, everything Shyvana has except Sheen and normal auto attacks is Aoe in ult. Well, not sure if AoE Q applies Sheen to all targets... then again GP's does so maybe? Q is AoE (and does a lot of damage with a very low cooldown that is lowered by autoing), W is AoE, E is AoE, Titanic is AoE. Also Shyvana's damage is not exactly low either, melting carries is pretty common if you ult onto them midgame.

RengoooJul 12, 20171 votes

Sure, titanic (which any melee like Udyr can build anyway) is good aoe, the Q is as well but is pretty situational because it requires enemies to be in quite close proximity. But as for the W and E.. 220 damage in a line is pretty damn irrelevant and W's 70 per second is only going to be relevant if you get the whole thing off on multiple enemies, even then.. 70 per second? Say 40% ish reduction (low) from mr = 40 approx. per second x 7 seconds = 280....

Asayake 5150glowJul 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Sure, titanic (which any melee like Udyr can build anyway) is good aoe, the Q is as well but is pretty situational because it requires enemies to be in quite close proximity.

Q is pretty big dude, it's easily as big as W...

But as for the W and E.. 220 damage in a line is pretty damn irrelevant and W's 70 per second is only going to be relevant if you get the whole thing off on multiple enemies, even then.. 70 per second? Say 40% ish reduction (low) from mr = 40 approx. per second x 7 seconds = 280....

Yeah but add in Titanic and Q and you have like 700 AoE damage. Multiple Q's and you get even more.

RengoooJul 12, 20172 votes

Suggestion: Remove on hit damage from W and give the burn a bonus health scaling. Put a reasonable slow on her E, change the % on hit to be all up front (something like: your next basic attack consumes/removes the mark to deal a chunk of bonus damage).

Her synergy with on hits is what is holding her back unfortunately - either build a few on hit damage items and become to squishy to be relevant in anything beyond 1v1s, or don't build them and be nothing but a tank with no damage or cc to bring to fights.

Asayake 5150glowJul 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Suggestion: Remove on hit damage from W and give the burn a bonus health scaling. Put a reasonable slow on her E, change the % on hit to be all up front (something like: your next basic attack consumes/removes the mark to deal a chunk of bonus damage).

Her synergy with on hits is what is holding her back unfortunately - either build a few on hit damage items and become to squishy to be relevant in anything beyond 1v1s, or don't build them and be nothing but a tank with no damage or cc to bring to fights.

I would agree, except Titanic Hydra is Shyv's core item and removing onhit synergy would really mess that up. Also, Shyv is plenty tanky to function as a Diver if she builds bruiser items (Triforce, Bloodrazor, Titanic, Steraks). I never liked tank Shyv but a lot of people actually use it a lot, TItanic into Cinderhulk into full tank is their usual build.

Also the DPS path is tanky enough to 1v2 many people. That's because it oneshots squishies, with Triforce, and kills them a little slower with Bork but better against tankier targets.

RengoooJul 12, 20171 votes

Removing W on hits + e on hits wont effect shyvanas effectiveness with titanic, it would still synergise well with her play style and with her Q.

My idea may be garbage and not work at all idk, but I still think some focus needs to be taken away from on hits and put back into power a juggernaut/diver can make better use of without extensive investment in damage items.

Asayake 5150glowJul 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Removing W on hits + e on hits wont effect shyvanas effectiveness with titanic, it would still synergise well with her play style and with her Q.

My idea may be garbage and not work at all idk, but I still think some focus needs to be taken away from on hits and put back into power a juggernaut/diver can make better use of without extensive investment in damage items.

It would because Titanic is an auto attack reset and would proc the onhits an additional time. Plus Shyv is unique that way.