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Farm or fight ? Question for high elo people.

FioraWillCarry··2 votes·1,964 views

So I finally got out of Bronze this season a couple months back and I've been playing a lot at the Silver 5 to Silver 4 level. I've had very limited success so far.

Now if you were to ask me how did I get out of Bronze, the simplest explanation would be that I basically ignored my team for the first 20-25 minutes and farmed as much as I could and just went on a rampage due to being stronger that everyone due to having much more gold through farming. I was able to carry most of my games all the way to Silver that way.

However, it doesn't work in Silver. It took me a while to realize why. In Silver teamfights usually start 15 minutes into the game and more importantly when it starts, it NEVER EVER stops. I've yet to play a game in Silver where this doesn't happen. While it occasionally happened in Bronze, it was manageable because Bronze players don't take towers. Silver players take towers very very quickly. What I realized is because I was farming a lot, my team was losing because they would constantly be put into a 4v5 situation. Remember, team fighting never stops in Silver. And when they win, you would lose not one but two towers if your team gets completely stomped in a team fight and it can happen as early as 17 minutes into the game.

Now, I've recently tried to adapt by doing the same thing. I'd start roaming non-stop after reaching level 6 or getting some item but I'd start early and it has yielded ok results. Now the downside is that my farm is terrible due to the constant need to always be with my team. If I deviate from this at all, by trying to split-push or farm the jungle or anything of the sort, 90% of the time it means my team is going to be a man short and will lose the next teamfight.

My question is, is this ok? I spent quite a bit of time learning how to last hit, how to farm under tower. I learned how to farm quite well. It's what got me out of Bronze and now I'm thinking, maybe it's not so important. Is it wise to fight more than farm ? Is it ever ok to have 100 CS at 30 minutes just to support your team. I just want to know if I'm on the right track.

19 Comments

Mr Broken Wings2 votes

you need to be able to do both. League is a decisionmakinggame, everytime you dont punish your enemy when you should you missplayed and everytime you lose cs you shouldnt lose you missplay. You cant just fokus on 1 thing and expect to win games!

waitthisisntdota2 votes

inb4 plat players comment on this thinking they're high elo

jaymc11302 votes

In high level play you only ever want to fight OVER something. Meaning, when you can take an objective after winning a fight, it is worth it to fight.

At any other point in the game its more important to just not die, and farm up. High level play isn't exactly like silver play (although there are plenty of silver moments each match, believe me.) where players turn the game into ARAM at 15 minutes and refuse to acknowledge the side lanes exist. That can still happen from time to time, but its usually a factor decided by team comp (like a deathball team comp, this would in fact be the win condition for it. That Naut top, Sej jg, Viegar mid, Lucian Adc, Alistar support composition WANTS to fight non stop starting at 15 minutes because it has insane team fight potential and if the opposing team is willing to play into their hands by doing so its probably a win for the deathball comp.) as opposed to something that just naturally occurs every game.

In general, the most important aspects of league of legends are 1) Not dying, and 2) Acquiring income. Because of this, in general, you only ever really want to fight if fighting accomplishes something that progress your team toward a win. Killing champions on the opposing team doesn't do this.

In low elo, its important to find a good balance because teams WILL want to fight non stop (these are bad players playing badly, they don't make informed or intelligent decisions) so it is up to YOU to coordinate that effort and be in the right place at the right time. If you need some time to take an objective, TELL the team you need 15 seconds, and not to fight, or get engaged on for that span of time. If you know they are about to walk into a fight they will lose without you and you cant take an objective while they fight, you should be at the fight. Ready to fight for SURVIVAL, not kills. You don't win games in any elo by chasing kills, you win games by fighting to keep yourself and as many teammates as possible ALIVE each and every fight. Why? Because when the enemy team has to back to recover, you and those living teammates can take an objective and reset yourselves.

FioraWillCarry2 votes

{quoted}

That Naut top, Sej jg, Viegar mid, Lucian Adc, Alistar support composition WANTS to fight non stop starting at 15 minutes because it has insane team fight potential and if the opposing team is willing to play into their hands by doing so its probably a win for the deathball comp.) as opposed to something that just naturally occurs every game.

Interesting. I've been thinking about maining more teamfight oriented champs to help build comps like this.

Ready to fight for SURVIVAL, not kills. You don't win games in any elo by chasing kills, you win games by fighting to keep yourself and as many teammates as possible ALIVE each and every fight. Why? Because when the enemy team has to back to recover, you and those living teammates can take an objective and reset yourselves.

Fighting to keep people alive. I've never actually thought of this. Thx for the idea. I could see this working if I could get good at it. I actually understand what you mean. When I go into team fights, it was always for the purpose of killing a couple of the enemies. It worked in Bronze but in Silver I die a lot doing that. I've never actually thought about the value in fighting just to survive. You've really given me something interesting to think about here.

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

Interesting. I've been thinking about maining more teamfight oriented champs to help build comps like this.

You can venture down that road if you want, but try to remember that in yolo q, a flexible chamion that can be well suited to a number of strategies has the upper hand. Tryndamere is GREAT for splitpushing. And Amumu is GREAT for teamfighting. Neither one is a champion I would like to see on my team. I don't want to be pigeonholed into a particular style of play in the lobby before the game starts when playing with random people I've never met before. I like to keep as many options open as possible. Ideally, I look for a champion that fits my style of play and can readily adapt (due either to kit, or build flexibility) into any style of strategy to beat the opposing team, be it a 1-3-1 style, a classic 1-4 style split, or a deathball type of comp. In reality, in higher level play, the most successful and common strategy is the 1-3-1 style split. In a meta that prioritized skirmishing mobile champs and the power of rotations this basic strategy is extremely effective PROVIDED it is well coordinated and organized (a burden I always take upon myself. Mechanically I might be silver at best, but my shot calling is world class, as is my communication abilities. I literally get by in diamond level play purely on that talent.) by the most competent member of the team.

Fighting to keep people alive. I've never actually thought of this. Thx for the idea. I could see this working if I could get good at it. I actually understand what you mean. When I go into team fights, it was always for the purpose of killing a couple of the enemies. It worked in Bronze but in Silver I die a lot doing that. I've never actually thought about the value in fighting just to survive. You've really given me something interesting to think about here.

I was surprised to discover just how effective this trick was. It made a significant difference in the amount of close games I was winning several seasons ago. It won't matter too much in blow outs in a snowbally meta like what we have, but the close matches can be decided by as little as one teammate surviving a fight at 35 minutes with 45 hp or not. If this person is your adc, thats probably a free tower + inhib because of the DPS output they have.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

{quoted}

You can venture down that road if you want, but try to remember that in yolo q, a flexible chamion that can be well suited to a number of strategies has the upper hand. Tryndamere is GREAT for splitpushing. And Amumu is GREAT for teamfighting. Neither one is a champion I would like to see on my team. I don't want to be pigeonholed into a particular style of play in the lobby before the game starts when playing with random people I've never met before.

Well the reason I even started to think about this because I basically one tricked to get out Bronze. I played Kayle almost exclusively for this and I was used to going shit like 10-2, 15-5. Just carrying. Now I'm going like 4-10, 2-4, just suffering. I thought I was just having bad games but I haven't carried many Silver games with her they way I'm used to doing. I realized now that it worked in Bronze because Bronze people were prone to getting caught out and Kayle is excellent at 1v1s and decent in 2v1s by mid game once she has RageBlade. I abused this to get fed and carry. But because Silver players roam in packs, so she doesn't seem to be suitable. I could never get a picks off lone roamers anymore. I always ended up getting baited and dying in 3v1s and many times, I've roamed to what seemed like an easy kill 1v1 only to have 3 other players crawling out all around me to rape me in a 4 on 1.

I mained Kayle in Bronze specifically for her phenomenal dueling power but there is no dueling anymore. Just endless team fighting. Early on, she is terrible at this. She just doesn't do enough damage in the early game to contribute much in team fights. I was thinking about maining Azir again. I've even taken a liking to Ekko and started playing him recently. Both are excellent team fighters.

I like to keep as many options open as possible. Ideally, I look for a champion that fits my style of play and can readily adapt (due either to kit, or build flexibility) into any style of strategy to beat the opposing team, be it a 1-3-1 style, a classic 1-4 style split, or a deathball type of comp. In reality, in higher level play, the most successful and common strategy is the 1-3-1 style split. In a meta that prioritized skirmishing mobile champs and the power of rotations this basic strategy is extremely effective PROVIDED it is well coordinated and organized (a burden I always take upon myself. Mechanically I might be silver at best, but my shot calling is world class, as is my communication abilities. I literally get by in diamond level play purely on that talent.) by the most competent member of the team.

Well this is a little more advanced. I don't think these strategies apply too much in Silver. No one thinks about 1-3-1 or 1-4 in Silver. It happens but I'm guessing it's by co-incidence. Everyone goes to where ever the fighting is. Some times it may work out as a 1-3-1 or 1-4 kinda thing, sometimes, it's just 10 players slugging it out in the jungle. There's no order to it. The only thing you can count on is that the losers of these fights are gonna lose towers so you have to try and win.

I was surprised to discover just how effective this trick was. It made a significant difference in the amount of close games I was winning several seasons ago. It won't matter too much in blow outs in a snowbally meta like what we have, but the close matches can be decided by as little as one teammate surviving a fight at 35 minutes with 45 hp or not. If this person is your adc, thats probably a free tower + inhib because of the DPS output they have.

I'll try to think more about this when I'm playing from now on. I really like this approach to playing.

LitAF1 votes

You must find balance.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

{quoted}

You must find balance.

Yea, but what does balance look like ? I mean when I was in Bronze working on csing better, I could measure my progress because I had a goal, 130-200 CS by 20 minutes. If I fell short, and I couldn't carry, I knew what I had to fix. But a good balance between roaming and farming, what does that look like. How would I know if I'm doing it right or not ?

LitAF2 votes

Well that my friend is what makes and breaks a player. You need to recognize when to farm and when to fight. If your lane starts roaming push the shit out of your lane and take tower to keep pressure. If theyre staying in lane focus on CS and mix in pokes and trades. I usually start to roam when my lane is pushed too far and I don't want to risk being ganked

jaymc11302 votes

{quoted}

Yea, but what does balance look like ? I mean when I was in Bronze working on csing better, I could measure my progress because I had a goal, 130-200 CS by 20 minutes. If I fell short, and I couldn't carry, I knew what I had to fix. But a good balance between roaming and farming, what does that look like. How would I know if I'm doing it right or not ?

A lot of this has to do with more advanced concepts like wave management, back timing, and similar things. What you are looking to do is carve out windows of time in order to be able to roam. If you are being pushed to your tower you can't really just take off and roam to another lane. Your opponent will see you leaving. They will take the tower. And any kills you do get are negated by the trade. Plus the enemy laner will just follow after you after taking the tower and try to mop up.

Its important to learn to control your waves so you can carve out moments and opportunities in between waves spawning. If, for example, you are in mid lane and just hit 6 and want to roam to bot since the enemy bot lane is pushing, what you FIRST have to do is push your wave to the enemy mid laners tower. Ideally, as SOON as the wave of enemy minions steps a foot away from said mid lane tier one tower you wave clear them all. This buys you a time frame of 30 seconds to act in. The opposing mid laner has to stay at his tower to clear the wave or lose in XP and gold and be at a disadvantage, so at least a few seconds (if not longer) of his actions are already dictated, while you are free to make any move possible.

You know you have found balance in terms of roaming and farming when you AREN'T missing waves of CS to accomplish your roams and are still managing to hit your goal of 130-200 cs (most of us in dimaond aim for 170, its a pretty achievable number, but 70cs per 10 minutes minimum) while also roaming successfully to other lanes. Learning to manage your waves, freeze them, push them, slow push them, allow them to push, is a key element of higher level play because knowing how to manipulate your waves creates moments of opportunity, windows of time that you carve out in which you can accomplish some other thing some where else on the map.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

{quoted}

A lot of this has to do with more advanced concepts like wave management, back timing, and similar things. What you are looking to do is carve out windows of time in order to be able to roam. If you are being pushed to your tower you can't really just take off and roam to another lane. Your opponent will see you leaving. They will take the tower. And and kills you do get are negated by the trade. Plus the enemy laner will just follow after you after taking the tower and try to mop up.

Its important to learn to control your waves so you can carve out moments and opportunities in between waves spawning. If, for example, you are in mid lane and just hit 6 and want to roam to bot since the enemy bot lane is pushing, what you FIRST have to do is push your wave to the enemy mid laners tower. Ideally, as SOON as the wave of enemy minions steps a foot away from said mid lane tier one tower you wave clear them all. This buys you a time frame of 30 seconds to act in. The opposing mid laner has to stay at his tower to clear the wave or lose in XP and gold and be at a disadvantage, so at least a few seconds (if not longer) of his actions are already dictated, while you are free to make any move possible.

You know you have found balance in terms of roaming and farming when you AREN'T missing waves of CS to accomplish your roams and are still managing to hit your goal of 130-200 cs (most of us in dimaond aim for 170, its a pretty achievable number, but 70cs per 10 minutes minimum) while also roaming successfully to other lanes. Learning to manage your waves, freeze them, push them, slow push them, allow them to push, is a key element of higher level play because knowing how to manipulate your waves creates moments of opportunity, windows of time that you carve out in which you can accomplish some other thing some where else on the map.

AH HA. This is the kind of post I was looking for. So I need to delve deeper into wave management. I can't just stay in lane and farm farm farm like I did in Bronze. You're saying I have to learn how to do this now WHILE being able to successfully roam. That about right ?

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

AH HA. This is the kind of post I was looking for. So I need to delve deeper into wave management. I can't just stay in lane and farm farm farm like I did in Bronze. You're saying I have to learn how to do this now WHILE being able to successfully roam. That about right ?

Pretty much mate. You got it. I'd start with watching some youtube videos and then take a look at pro play from last weekend after you become familiar with the concept. Watch in particular TSM and how they manage waves as a team. Not only does each individual LANE do this, they do it in SYNCHRONIZATION with the other lanes. Its truly amazing and beautiful to watch. When you start seeing how it allows them to take certain types of actions and make certain types of plays you will be able to start utilizing similar concepts yourself in your own games. Eventually it will become second nature to manage your waves at different points in the game for different reasons.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much mate. You got it. I'd start with watching some youtube videos and then take a look at pro play from last weekend after you become familiar with the concept. Watch in particular TSM and how they manage waves as a team. Not only does each individual LANE do this, they do it in SYNCHRONIZATION with the other lanes. Its truly amazing and beautiful to watch. When you start seeing how it allows them to take certain types of actions and make certain types of plays you will be able to start utilizing similar concepts yourself in your own games. Eventually it will become second nature to manage your waves at different points in the game for different reasons.

Aite, I'll look into that. Thx ;)

Khell DarkWolf1 votes

{quoted}

Yea, but what does balance look like ? I mean when I was in Bronze working on csing better, I could measure my progress because I had a goal, 130-200 CS by 20 minutes.** If I fell short, and I couldn't carry, I knew what I had to fix. **But a good balance between roaming and farming, what does that look like. How would I know if I'm doing it right or not ?

This is the key thing here.

If you're serious then the goal you're looking for now is not just to maintain that CS progress.

Its the ability to**_ make decisions_** and predict what your team and the enemy is going to do.

It isn't a simple answer as to say farm all day in your game or neglect it completely and join the team, the balance everyone is referring to is understanding when to do this or that by pre-planning ahead.

Users jaymc1130 and Mr Broken Wings already spelled out the next step to learn.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Khell DarkWolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zw2UKLMW,comment-id=000100000002,timestamp=2016-09-02T11:57:14.507+0000)

This is the key thing here.

If you're serious then the goal you're looking for now is not just to maintain that CS progress.

Its the ability to**_ make decisions_** and predict what your team and the enemy is going to do.

It isn't a simple answer as to say farm all day in your game or neglect it completely and join the team, the balance everyone is referring to is understanding when to do this or that by pre-planning ahead.

Users jaymc1130 and Mr Broken Wings already spelled out the next step to learn.

Yea, I think I get what you're all saying now. I have to build now on what I learned. Thx all for your answers ;)

1st Movement1 votes

100cs in 30 min for a solo laner isn't that good

If they make a rotation bot just ping Mia and push your tower if your too late to respond

FioraWillCarry1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Reaver MHX,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zw2UKLMW,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-09-02T10:57:20.259+0000)

100cs in 30 min for a solo laner isn't that good

If they make a rotation bot just ping Mia and push your tower if your too late to respond

That doesn't work. You have to understand, when Silver players make a play, ALL of them are going. Let me give you an example. Lets say you're bot lane gets ganked by the enemy jungler. And it ends up being a longish skirmish with lots of kiting back an forth, spells being thrown all over the place, ie the fight is not decided quickly. Your jungler is gonna get there and turn it into a 3v3. By this time the enemy mid laner and top laner were well on their way to bot lane too also looking to make plays. This happens from the time the time they realize that the fight is not gonna be decided quickly. You can bet your ass 100% of the time it's gonna turn into a shitstorm quickly. If you are the mid laner and you decide to stay and push, you bot lane is gonna get fucked hard because they are gonna be facing a 4v5 if the fight lasts. That is a guarantee in Silver. They are gonna get doved, die and you're going to lose that bot tower.

I've really tried to make my passive farming play work like I did to get out of Bronze. But it just doesn't work in Silver. Silver players just fight non-stop and you will NEVER catch a Silver player out alone. They consistently start moving in groups of no less that 3 after the 15 minute mark looking to start fights wherever they can ALL THE DAMN TIME. The last game I played, I was playing Akali, and by 20 minutes, I could not farm because there was constant fighting at bot lane for like 5 minutes straight. Their entire team repeatedly went to bot lane. It didn't stop until one side was completely smashed with something like a 3 for 1.

Weathered1 votes

Most of the high ELO coaches I've seen say you can get to plat by simply having 10cs per minute. Currently G1 so I guess its working.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

{quoted}

Most of the high ELO coaches I've seen say you can get to plat by simply having 10cs per minute. Currently G1 so I guess its working.

While I'm not THAT good, getting close to that is basically what got me out of Bronze, I too thought I'd keep climbing just by doing that but it's just not working in Silver. If you're not there to help your team win every teamfight, which as I said, starts early and never stops. The game ends long before that good farming can do you any good. I'm telling you man, Silver is about team fighting. That AFK farming shit just isn't working anymore.

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