As a Kayle main.......I don't like her new kit.

FioraWillCarry·Mar 6, 2019·33 votes·13,188 views

I mained Kayle in season 7 and 8, accumulating over a million points on her. I just played the new Kayle for the first time vs humans and I have to say she is beyond horrible.

Her visual update is excellent, no complaints there but her new kit is pure shit. She is a completely different champion and far weaker than the old Kayle. To be honest, I'd rather her old kit but with the new visuals. She is quite easily the weakest champion in the game. In fact, she is the weakest champion I have ever seen in all my time playing. She is completely ineffective for most of the game and when she does become something resembling a normal champion, the match is already over. This new Kayle has to sit out the most important parts of the game. In terms of just her kit and numbers, this is by far the worst rework I have ever seen.

I always planned on maining her again since she was always my best champion but now, I almost 100% sure I'm going to drop her. Riot really fucked this one up. And if I can't get as much success on another champ as I did on her, I might just quit the game. It's really no fun not having a champ you know you can pull out when you really want some wins. Kayle was my champion of choice for just winning games.

150 Comments

Yordle XayahMar 7, 201919 votes

Aatrox Yeah Akali you're Galio the first Zac person Graves to Fiora have Irelia this Sion issue Swain with Taric the Shen rework Urgot of their main Yorick

[sg-lulu] Welcome to the club. That will be all thank you.

Edit: Added Zac and Shen

FioraWillCarryMar 7, 20196 votes

Of those champions, I've played both versions of Irelia and Swain. Irelia was one of my main champions and I loved her rework. I was better at the old one but I have no problem at all with the new one, in fact I think she is better. As for Swain, I only played him off and on and new Swain was completely different but acceptable.

One other you didn't mention was Warwick. That one was a brilliant rework and very faithful to the original. And I prefer new Warwick over the old one.

Kayle however, they straight up made her garbage. Pretty looking garbage but garbage nonetheless. Her old kit was far better.

Yordle XayahMar 7, 20199 votes

{quoted}

Of those champions, I've played both versions of Irelia and Swain. Irelia was one of my main champions and I loved her rework. I was better at the old one but I have no problem at all with the new one, in fact I think she is better. As for Swain, I only played him off and on and new Swain was completely different but acceptable.

One other you didn't mention was Warwick. That one was a brilliant rework and very faithful to the original. And I prefer new Warwick over the old one.

Kayle however, they straight up made her garbage. Pretty looking garbage but garbage nonetheless. Her old kit was far better.

You're missing the point of my comment. New Aatrox proved to be way more useful and powerful than old Aatrox, but it's essentially an entirely different champion now. It's not about the character being better, but their kits being completely changed to the point where they're barely recognizable. Gbay famously hated the new Irelia, as he insisted they ruined/changed her identity entirely. I'm not talking about kits being worse or better, but kits alienating old mains of an old character.

So yeah, nothing changes:

Aatrox You're Akali still Galio not Zac the first person Graves to Fiora have Irelia this Sion issue Swain with Taric the rework Urgot of your main Yorick

[sg-lulu] Welcome to the club.

I feel for you, but you're not the first to find an entirely new character where your old main used to be. This isn't new, you're just the newest member to a very old running club.

FaustavianMar 7, 20192 votes

Have you even seen that Aatrox mains subreddit? They fuckin hate the rework.

Yordle XayahMar 7, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Have you even seen that Aatrox mains subreddit? They fuckin hate the rework.

Uh... yeah???? That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Did it just fly way over your head?? [slayer-jinx-unamused]

FaustavianMar 7, 20194 votes

It actually did, that's my bad. Sorry about that.

nGioMar 7, 20199 votes

{quoted}

Yeah you're the first person to have this issue with the rework of their main

[sg-lulu] Welcome to the club. That will be all thank you.

You left out the most bullshit abomination of them all.... Zac

An AP sustain bruiser who had his highest win % in top lane, into some jungle only support thing. Fuck the Eve and Shen reworks too. The WW rework was by far the best job they've done imo, but there have been a lot more shit reworks than good ones.

DurzakaMar 7, 20192 votes

{quoted}

You left out the most bullshit abomination of them all....

An AP sustain bruiser who had his highest win % in top lane, into some jungle only support thing. Fuck the Eve and Shen reworks too. The WW rework was by far the best job they've done imo, but there have been a lot more shit reworks than good ones.

As someone who used to main Zac.

That hurt me deep man.

Yordle XayahMar 7, 20192 votes

{quoted}

You left out the most bullshit abomination of them all....

An AP sustain bruiser who had his highest win % in top lane, into some jungle only support thing. Fuck the Eve and Shen reworks too. The WW rework was by far the best job they've done imo, but there have been a lot more shit reworks than good ones.

Ah yes, Zac... he was my favorite Jungler when he first came out. I remember even climbing with him for a while. He's completely different now. OP didn't even understand my comment. He thinks I'm talking about old kits and new kits and which one is better, but I'm just saying some new kits have been alienating mains for YEARS and that his case is nothing special or new, though I feel for him having his main replaced by a new character that resembles the old one.

Sydney26Mar 7, 20192 votes

u forgot shen Shen

ChaosReynMar 6, 201917 votes

"I am a Kayle main!" Is really an obvious Fiora main

[slayer-jinx-wink]

GaliöMar 7, 201912 votes

It's not completely different.

Its just your gated by levels now instead of an item.... and you feel worse early... and you cant go crazy with AA while youre ulting.

But other than those 3 things it's not much different, just feels a lil worse.

I've been saying on Twitter than her level 1 abilities need some more strength so she doesnt feel so awful at lvl 3... and maybe then they can tune down the super late game in case she is too strong/too easy to get there...

It's nice that she doesnt need 40% CDR anymore... but the trade off isnt super worth it (so far it seems)

Sorry you're unhappy though. I know how it feels.

AirKingNeoMar 7, 20194 votes

kayle only needed 30% CDR, not 40%.

QancerClownMar 7, 201910 votes

Tested Kayle. Is shit. Don't play her. You will get stomped early game. Always.

LTK KoRoMar 7, 20194 votes

hypercarry loses lane, more news at 11

SaiannaMar 7, 20199 votes

She is a completely different champion

welcome to Riots quality reworks, where champion you enjoyed is put to a bag and whatever you'll pull out will definitely be something different with just this feel of "hey, i think i remember that" stitched in.

MeltingSnowflakzMar 7, 20199 votes

No one is talking about he loss of 15% Armor and MR shred. One of the huge reasons she was useful in a teamfight. These are really huge nerfs to Kayle, no matter how they try to hide it under a veil of "But monster post 16", the truth is most games are over by 25 min and you willl never see 16. This means you will either get carried by your team while contributing almost nothing, or get crushed into oblivion while getting blamed by your team for picking Kayle in a solo lane role. Why would you ever play the champion as support, the W and R don't compare to the influence any real support would have in the game.

The 1-11 melee champ thing is brutal, and 5 stacks thing to trigger Exalted is pretty excessive. I would hazard to say that most trades or duels are over or almost over by the time you get 5 autos in. The W causing an auto attack lock out cast time interrupts your ability to deal damage for close to 2 sec. The E is a flat out huge nerf, losing extended ranged ability in exchange for 1 ranged empowered hit...The R nerf is just......insulting. Prevents you from doing damage when you already deal such a pathetically little amount, then telegraphing the incoming R damage burst so everyone can casually play around it with any mobility abilities or sums.

New Kayle is trash. It was already hard to justify a situation where Old Kayle could be considered a benefit to the team. New Kayle has no benefit to the team at all pre 11 and will get crushed in 99% of solo lanes. Post 16 performance does not compensate for putting your team at an essentially 4v5 disadvantage for the first 30 min.

/shrug pretty obvious

WolfeurMar 7, 20193 votes

5 stacks thing to trigger Exalted is pretty excessive

I'm pretty sure you can stack on minions

MeltingSnowflakzMar 7, 20191 votes

You can for sure yes, assuming you are ever allowed near the minion wave in a solo lane....

WolfeurMar 7, 20191 votes

Why wouldn't you be? You're not the only melee champion in the game, and you have a heal with MS boost.

JarringMar 7, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Why wouldn't you be? You're not the only melee champion in the game, and you have a heal with MS boost.

that heal/movespeed boost will be used to run away from the minion wave the moment any other melee champ even looks at you funny.

SukishooMar 7, 20198 votes

Old P: basic attacks and Q reduce enemy champions' armor and magic resistance

Q blasts the target enemy, dealing them magic damage and slowing them

W blesses the target allied champion or herself, healing them and granting them bonus movement speed

E: P: basic attacks deal bonus magic damage. A: Kayle becomes a ranged champion and attacks deal splash damage

R: Kayle bathes the target allied champion or herself in holy light, rendering them invulnerable

**New: ** P: Zealous: Kayle's basic attacks grant 6% bonus attack speed for 5 seconds, stacking up to 5 times for a maximum of 30% bonus attack speed. At Max stacks Kayle becomes Exalted, gaining 15% bonus movement speed

Upon spending 6, 11, and 16 skill points, Kayle ascends into a new form Aflame - Level 6: While Exalted, Kayle's basic attacks additionally launch a wave of fire in the target's direction Arisen - Level 11: Kayle becomes a ranged champion, additionally, Zealous's bonus attack speed is increased to 10% bonus attack speed Transcendent - Level 16: Zealous is set to maximum stacks. Additionally, Aflame's fiery waves now deal true damage.

Q: Kayle plants a portal at her initial location that faces the target direction. After a 0.5-second delay, a celestial sword launches forward from the portal damaging and slowing enemies hit (while reducing their armor and magic resistance).

W: Active: Kayle and target allied champion are healed and gain bonus movement speed

E: P: Kayle's basic attacks deal bonus magic damage. Additionally, Aflame's base damage is increased. A: Kayle's next basic attack within 6 seconds deals bonus magic damage. Prior to becoming Arisen, Starfire Spellblade also causes Kayle to become a Ranged Champion.

R: Kayle conjures swords around the target allied champion or herself over 1.5 seconds, after which she brings them crashing to the ground, dealing magic damage to all enemies in the area. Divine Judgement also grants the target invulnerability for a few seconds.

Hmm not seeing much of a difference here, outside the fact that she a new passive. The rest of her is pretty much the same but with improvements.

InfernapeMar 7, 20194 votes

It's basically the same but her scaling is radically different.

She's very weak early. Old Kayle could actually bully certain champs like Darius early on and outscale him. Now Kayle is pretty much cannon fodder for everything up until she hits level 11 and 16. She's a late game scaling champ in a meta where games end in under half an hour.

Unless she somehow wins lane, gets camped by her jungler or turns into an ult bot in teamfights, I can't see Kayle doing well in most games unless Riot over buff her.

JackMcSnipeyzMar 7, 201910 votes

Why should a champion with an insane late game be able to BULLY a lane BULLY like Darius?

LTK KoRoMar 7, 20195 votes

that's the most important part which "old" kayle main omit. Old kayle was a design mistake due to her E being a r%%%%%ed skill on toplane and now kayle mains are crying that they can't autowin melee lanes as a HYPERCARRY

PB4UAMEMar 7, 20193 votes

On pretty much every thread this is the exact same vibe I'm getting.

"Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, I've played literally one game, or at most 10, and now I actually have to try to lane, and don't instantly win it while outscaling the shit out of everyone else, while having a free, low cooldown invulnerability that I can attack through and cast on any ally instantly with no delay or cast time, while also essentially being a ranged champion with melee stats. Sure my late game is now even better and hands down the best of any champion but having any sort of trade off like being weak pre 6, and pre 11 is so fucking crippling OMFGWTFBBQ RIOT has to revert this rework NAOW!!!@1!!!!!@1!!!1!!!!! u RuInEd MuH kYaLE"

Romans VI XXIIIMar 7, 20196 votes

Then u r missing the part that old kayle was ranged at lvl 1, not lvl 11.

SukishooMar 7, 20192 votes

Only ranged at level one if you started E and only for a few seconds.

AetherArisingMar 7, 201910 votes

Everyone started E, to my knowlege. It allows you to clear wave and poke level 1 at the same time

ZaFishboneMar 7, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Everyone started E, to my knowlege. It allows you to clear wave and poke level 1 at the same time

Yea, you pretty much let the wave stack up, then used one E to clear a big part of it, or used it for an extended trade. Like I said above, a few seconds is more that enough. But now it's just one AA, and if your'e not low health then that one AA won't even hurt like an default old E empowered AA.

Serika ZeroMar 7, 20194 votes

Your issue is that you try to play the new kayle as old kayle. the reason most champion mains hate reworks, this includes also every single prior rework if not every single one of them.

Is because the hero they mained is gone. Even if the new one is better, it plays nothing like the older or original version. for example, I like eve's rework and have played it a bunch since. But I wasn't an eve main, and pretty much all eve mains hated the rework.

And this is because reworks aren't centered around mains. Riot doesn't care what you found interesting or fun about a champion, they prefer for new players, and players that don't main that champion to pick that champion out.

I also mained fiora for a season. They deleted her and replaced her with her evil sister. Some people like her evil sister, I don't. It plays nothing like og fiora and if I were to play her like og fiora it would suck.

likewise, if you keep playing new kayle like old kayle, it's gonna suck.

FioraWillCarryMar 7, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v9OxV9gz,comment-id=000400020000000100000000,timestamp=2019-03-07T10:46:51.996+0000)

Your issue is that you try to play the new kayle as old kayle. the reason most champion mains hate reworks, this includes also every single prior rework if not every single one of them.

Irelia and Warwick were played the same way after their rework and they were actually improved. The Kayle rework is a straight gutting. Nothing about new Kayle is better than the old except the visuals.

SEKAIMar 7, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Irelia and Warwick were played the same way after their rework and they were actually improved. The Kayle rework is a straight gutting. Nothing about new Kayle is better than the old except the visuals.

No they aren't, at least certainly (heh) not for Warwick.

The vast majority of all the other old Warwick's builds are no longer viable. Building AS on him now is mostly a wasted stat which meant AA-wick is gone, you can no longer build him as a 1shot assassin banking on the on-hit proc on ulti the same way it was (the number of on-hit proc is almost halved), you can no longer play support-wick which was actually a thing because of him used to have AoE AS buff (and his R meant a free kill), and there was also AP-wick who spammed Q and built items like Nashors and Malady and Lichbane which ofc is no longer a thing.

There is only tank/bruiser-wick left, which isn't even the old Warwick's intended playstyle given old WW's recommended items used to be filled with AS and on-hit items as he was envisioned to be a DPS duelist who could function as a draintank but not actually a full tank (Do you remember that time in 2009. Where all the Warwick rush Madred's Bloodrazor... Ba de ya, say do you remember).

......

Irelia while may not be built that much differently, she is played entirely different to old Irelia. Old Irelia checks people with raw stats, new Irelia checks people with both raw stats and the fact she's overloaded with additional utility on top of it.

...... ......

Does that say, Warwick was "straight gutted". Well, depends on what you look at.

Irelia's rework was bullshit as it made her so hard to balance because of the overloading, though.

SEKAIMar 7, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Romans VI XXIII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v9OxV9gz,comment-id=00040002,timestamp=2019-03-07T05:46:12.928+0000)

Then u r missing the part that old kayle was ranged at lvl 1, not lvl 11.

Kayle can still go ranged for a period at level 1 like old Kayle via using E. This aspect of "press E to go ranged" is not changed from Kayle at all. In fact, the range granted by her current E is MORE than it did on old Kayle (currently makes her range into 550, when before it was 525).

It's just now that Kayle becomes permanently ranged passively at level 11 now. It's just house-tiding as old Kayle was also more or less permanently ranged at around that level where her E was basically permanently active (with the old E, at spell level 5 and 30% CDR, the E's CD becomes shorter than its active duration which allowed it to be permanently active); just that now have some leverage in that you don't have to clunkily hammer the E every couple seconds just to gain range in mid-late game.

Romans VI XXIIIMar 7, 20193 votes

LOL, so then u clearly have 0 idea about new kayles abilities. New E is on 1 AUTO. Old Kayle was for several seconds, i think 10s. Clearly a MASSIVE difference.

SEKAIMar 7, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Romans VI XXIII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v9OxV9gz,comment-id=0004000200020000,timestamp=2019-03-07T17:13:19.359+0000)

LOL, so then u clearly have 0 idea about new kayles abilities. New E is on 1 AUTO. Old Kayle was for several seconds, i think 10s. Clearly a MASSIVE difference.

Yeah but the current E also has shorter CD, too. It's currently at flat 8 second CD, and it used to be more than double of that at spell level 1 at 18 seconds (at spell level 5, it was still 14).

EDIT: And outside of using old E to bully the opponent at the comfort of both range and AoE AA, E was never used beyond a couple swings (to last hit) per use anyway; and I can see why they remove the bully bit out of the equation. Though I could also see why empowering only a hit may be an issue, but then again, they could very easily make it 2 or so and it'd be just fine.

JarringMar 7, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but the current E also has shorter CD, too. It's currently at flat 8 second CD, and it used to be more than double of that at spell level 1 at 18 seconds (at spell level 5, it was still 14).

EDIT: And outside of using old E to bully the opponent at the comfort of both range and AoE AA, E was never used beyond a couple swings (to last hit) per use anyway; and I can see why they remove the bully bit out of the equation. Though I could also see why empowering only a hit may be an issue, but then again, they could very easily make it 2 or so and it'd be just fine.

yes please, i want more people on board with my charges idea. Atm there's no point for E to be an empowered ranged attack, it might as well be another targeted ability.

if u gave her 2 charges with half the missing target hp dmg and half the cooldown she could farm, kite, and bully, all within reason. also think, that as a result, her late game power spike might actually feel justified and won't need to be overstated.

TBH if i had it my way, i'd reduce the damage to 5% missing health so that she gets 2 ranged attacks per activation... c/d wouldn't need to be super short that way.. at that point she could even have the same 8 second cd for all i care.. That would basically seal the deal and make her completely viable. Klepto could also probably be her keystone of choice as a scaling champion

before the rework, her e was practically her entire kit... they decide to rework her and remove it they can't even make the new E fun to play? what i'm suggesting might not be that much more fun, but it will at least be viable in comparison to a glorified trash can.

WolfeurMar 7, 20198 votes

She is a completely different champion

Old Sion, Aatrox, Urgot, Akali, Galio, Swain, Taric, Warwick and Yorick mains would like a word with you.

SEKAIMar 7, 20195 votes

Old Kayle was a super stat-check whose gameplay revolve entirely around running at people and see if which one of the 2 of you have higher stats, given Kayle is almost entirely AA based and her old Q and W made sure just about everyone had to heed her stat-check challenge. And worse, Kayle also has a super upperhand with her range and R, too.

But really, Kayle isn't changed all that much. The only 2 things that stood out is that her Q is no longer a target spell and that her R now seems to have buffers in it and no longer instant, so that's some improvement on her dynamics I suppose. Her original design simply needed the makeover. There is no way her original implementation of being literally a balls-of-stat that roll over people and kills from range like some invincible rapid-firing tank is going to stay forever.

If anything, the Kayle rework has the benefits of making her even stronger in late game than she ever was, and in doing the same thing, AAing people to death with ranged and AoE AA; just that her Q wasn't as obnoxious as before really. I am tbh not so sure why you would hate the new Kayle for any other reason beyond she's potentially bullshit in mid-late game.

FioraWillCarryMar 7, 20194 votes

{quoted}

There is no way her original implementation of being literally a balls-of-stat that roll over people and kills from range like some invincible rapid-firing tank is going to stay forever.

Yi, Tryndamere and Jax are like that. They both seek to out stat their opponents. So there is obviously still a place for champions like that.

If anything, the Kayle rework has the benefits of making her even stronger in late game than she ever was, and in doing the same thing, AAing people to death with ranged and AoE AA; just that her Q wasn't as obnoxious as before really. I am tbh not so sure why you would hate the new Kayle for any other reason beyond she's potentially bullshit in mid-late game.

Her late game comes at a time where either, it's not really needed to win or too late to stop a loss.

LTK KoRoMar 7, 20196 votes

so you're saying that she as a late game champion should come online much earlier? Should kayle be broken with two items like Vayne?

Abibyama IIMar 7, 20196 votes

Fuck it, make everyone an early game champion. It's what the people wanted

Serika ZeroMar 7, 20195 votes

Welcome to the club. almost every champion main hates every rework. very few like them or will continue to main that champion later.

Thats why riot only reworks champions with low play rates, as more people would hate them otherwise

Lo4dingMar 7, 20195 votes

Boody hell. You have played new kayle 5 times which you effectively afked 2 of them with 3% and 27% takedown participation. Why are you even on this board? Did you assumed that you jump in ranked with reworked champion expecting to beat everyone without actualy getting used to her new kit? I dont want to be rude but that is just pathetic.

[zombie-brand-clap]

FioraWillCarryMar 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

you effectively afked 2 of them with 3% and 27% takedown participation.

This is EXACTLY the problem with new Kayle.

VelasanMar 7, 20195 votes

Reading some of these replies makes me ashamed to associate myself with the boards.

Have a little heart people. Remember when a person mains a champion they invest a great deal of time into learning them and often emotional investment in a champion they enjoy playing. When that champion gets ripped out from under them and they find themselves with something new and alien and different and that's jarring.

I should know I am like the poster boy for mains who get reworked.

My champion pool over the years has been Viktor (who got reworked ages ago when he got the perfect hexcore), Azir, Cho'gath, Zac, Sejuani, Graves (back when he was an ADC), and Veigar. Guess what I'm also an OG Swain and Warwick main who is still playing their reworks. Almost every champion I've had on my roster of playables has been reworked at one time or another (Trundle and Volibear are probably next).

So, when someone laments the loss of that kind of time investment I know exactly what they are talking about. I actually enjoy new Swain, but he's not old Swain. They basically deleted old Swain to make the new character. Personally I would have been happier if they kept old Swain and new Swain could have been a new character with a new name, but they didn't do that. I totally get that new Kayle is not old Kayle. She's going to play different, she isn't going to feel the same. It is, for all intents and purposes, a new champion. Having the same name can kind of fool you into thinking it's the same, but they're not.

I'm expecting a lot more of these posts over the coming week. It sucks to lose a champion you've spent so much time on.

And also seriously shame on all you people casting shade on the original poster just because you didn't like playing against Kayle. You are not automatically smarter because your champion has a dash or a 3 hit mechanic. Original Kayle had her place in the meta, which was largely as an anti diver champion you could safely lane with until she became a strong team fighter. I remember at one point she was a big Zed counter in mid lane. Everyone has different play styles, that doesn't make someone else's play style irrelevant just because it doesn't match or has different mechanics.

FioraWillCarryMar 7, 20193 votes

Yea, you pretty much nailed it.

At the very least I was hoping it would turn out like the Irelia or Warwick rework where they preserved her core game play. This rework feels like a far worse version of the Aatrox rework, where they completely change the champion and completely gutted her at the same time.

I actually enjoy new Swain, but he's not old Swain.

I played a bit of Swain too and this one would have broken my heart if I mained him. He was completely different. But at least his gameplay was preserved. That is to say, you play new Swain pretty much the way you played old Swain. You just go about it with different mechanics. I could have accepted that with Kayle.

rabirinsuMar 7, 20193 votes

old kayle: team just let me get 3 items we can win this new kayle: team just let me farm to level 16 we can win this