and why/why not?
I.e marksman with self peel or mobility, melee carries like GP and Fiora, as opposed to a juggernaut like Mord who is more reliant on having a good team to really excel
or the difference between Vayne and a Kog'Maw, both are hyper carries. what separates them?
FiddlesOnTheRoof4 votesI think if you generalize "carries" into that broad a statement, and sweepingly decide they should or should not have self peel, it really pigeon holes the classes they're in, and would start to make champions feel redundant. I think each individual champion should have that decision baked into their kit and balanced around.
Starcraft243ver1 votesWhat could be the interesting outcome of this thread ? I'm still trying to figure out how or why this question could have any interest, but I can't find any.
Big Lincoln1 voteswhat defines a carry and what they should be able to do
Dasdi961 votesHow are juggernauts team reliant? I thought they are the most self sufficient class in the game because of their combination of damage and durability.
Big Lincoln1 votesthey're sufficient in the sense of being able to tank burst but of they're the carry they need both good peel and a teammate that can help bring them into the fight, or a blitz who brings the fight to them
Dasdi961 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zt0aGGJE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-03-22T17:36:13.354+0000)
they're sufficient in the sense of being able to tank burst but of they're the carry they need both good peel and a teammate that can help bring them into the fight, or a blitz who brings the fight to them
The thing is you don't pick a juggernaut to be the main carry of your team.
Big Lincoln1 votesI don't know what else I pick them for
Ralanr1 votesWhy not? Just because the ADC is the main carry?
Juggernauts don't exactly offer the target selection of an assassin or diver, nor the utility of a tank. They're pretty much designed as durable melee carries and they rely on their team to a similar effect.
ADCs rely on their team to protect them because they are squishy. Juggernauts rely on their team to hold their enemy because the juggernaut can't keep them close. ADCs ask for their team to be defensive, juggernauts ask to be aggressive.
In theory anyway.
doodlebob6661 votesSome should but they should provide a lesser reward for being self-sufficient best example is Ez he has the mobility to not need peel in a fight, but trades a lot of his DPS for it. On the other side of the spectrum is kalista who is self-sufficient in the fact she has mobility that makes her somewhat self-sufficient but still has the DPS that most adc's have, meaning riot had to hamstring.
A good juggernaut(they are carries no matter how you slice it) example would be olaf, he doesn't need help getting to the backline and can act as a pseudo engage on his own, but he trades the raw damage of most juggernauts for this.
Melee carries are a bit of a special case because theoretically they trade tankiness and range in for their self-reliance meaning they shouldn't have to take this trade off as much because of their lack of safety
o0O Madoka O0o1 votesGenerrally speaking, in a balance sense, no.
GP and Fiora damage is conditional: GP relies on chaining E, Fiora relies on procing passive and ult. They both have 1 "get out of jail for free" card because of their uncertain damage output, allowing them to outplay.
Mord is outdated, so I'm not gonna take him into balance account. Think about the old GP and Fiora before rework, they have lower damage potential but higher reliability, making them really difficult to balance.
ADC damage on the otherhand, is impossible to outplay. Kog' Maw can pop his W and auto you to death within a second in late game, Tris and Jinx works similarly. Thus they must be vulnerable to attacks to balance it out.
Vayne isn't a hyper carry in a sense like Kog'Maw, Trist, and Jinx. Her damage is more condtional (ult and 3 hit passive), thus she gets stealth in ult, and E to outplay (both on high cd), she cannot murder you whole team in seconds, she's more of a mid game-ish adc, capable of shredding tanks while other hyper carries are still finishing their builds. The hyper carries are all about the late damage and clean up teamfights and take turrets.
Asayake 5150glow1 votes[{quoted}](name=o0O Madoka O0o,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zt0aGGJE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-03-22T18:30:55.518+0000)
Generrally speaking, in a balance sense, no.
GP and Fiora damage is conditional: GP relies on chaining E, Fiora relies on procing passive and ult. They both have 1 "get out of jail for free" card because of their uncertain damage output, allowing them to outplay.
Mord is outdated, so I'm not gonna take him into balance account. Think about the old GP and Fiora before rework, they have lower damage potential but higher reliability, making them really difficult to balance.
ADC damage on the otherhand, is impossible to outplay. Kog' Maw can pop his W and auto you to death within a second in late game, Tris and Jinx works similarly. Thus they must be vulnerable to attacks to balance it out.
Vayne isn't a hyper carry in a sense like Kog'Maw, Trist, and Jinx. Her damage is more condtional (ult and 3 hit passive), thus she gets stealth in ult, and E to outplay (both on high cd), she cannot murder you whole team in seconds, she's more of a mid game-ish adc, capable of shredding tanks while other hyper carries are still finishing their builds. The hyper carries are all about the late damage and clean up teamfights and take turrets.
Well - crit Vayne can easily murder your whole team in seconds. Bonus AD on ult, Q reset + extra damage + true damage makes that so.
Sure she's not quite Twitch level but she's pretty damn strong late game.
E is also self peel, outplaying is possible but not necessary most of the time.
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=o0O Madoka O0o,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zt0aGGJE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-03-22T18:30:55.518+0000)
Generrally speaking, in a balance sense, no.
GP and Fiora damage is conditional: GP relies on chaining E, Fiora relies on procing passive and ult. They both have 1 "get out of jail for free" card because of their uncertain damage output, allowing them to outplay.
Mord is outdated, so I'm not gonna take him into balance account. Think about the old GP and Fiora before rework, they have lower damage potential but higher reliability, making them really difficult to balance.
ADC damage on the otherhand, is impossible to outplay. Kog' Maw can pop his W and auto you to death within a second in late game, Tris and Jinx works similarly. Thus they must be vulnerable to attacks to balance it out.
Vayne isn't a hyper carry in a sense like Kog'Maw, Trist, and Jinx. Her damage is more condtional (ult and 3 hit passive), thus she gets stealth in ult, and E to outplay (both on high cd), she cannot murder you whole team in seconds, she's more of a mid game-ish adc, capable of shredding tanks while other hyper carries are still finishing their builds. The hyper carries are all about the late damage and clean up teamfights and take turrets.
Vayne is rivaled or exceeded only by Twitch as a late game carry.
Her strength late game comes from being largely immune to the common strategy of isolating the ADC and killing them. There are few champions who can solo kill an isolated Vayne late game. She also doesn't have to build a last whisper item (there is a reason that any champion who can afford to drop the item like Yasuo, Vayne, or Master Yi does), so she can itemize for some hot burst (like with her crit build) or with relatively more durability than an ADC, like a maw and a GA combined. She just has enough damage built into her kit.
I do think Twitch is stronger late game, but there aren't many champions who can beat the ability to melt an entire team by auto attacking.
Aptest1 votesIn general there are three ways to balance characters in the game.
everybody are equal, before items. this has two disadvantages: (a) in the behind team you don't have a mechanism by which to get back to the game since everybody are stronger than you and (b) nobody gets to shit on people by design (players really like this).the advantage is that you get to play your lane regardless of your pick.
there's a lover's triangle with a shits on b b shots on c c shits on a. major advantages are that you get to shit on people and there are comeback mechanisms. Disadvantage is that this is a world of hard counters. The countered champion can just try and get some XP while being denied or farmed.
there's one type of champion that there is in every game, that everybody shits on. this combines advantages of 1 and 2. but said champion type needs to be compensated by being able to shit on everybody if the circumstances are right ("consistent burst")
we live in (3). can you justified moving to (2) or (1) ?