@Riot, Support items and what could be done to improve them

CaptainAntiHeroz··2 votes·2,419 views

As someone who plays a lot of support I feel that with the changing meta and the creation of Pyke that Riot is really attempting to create diversity. I'm not against that, variety is a great thing. However, with shield times being lowered and forbidden idol getting nerfed (5% less CDR is pretty big when your trying to save lives) and Riot attempting to create diversity, I think they forgot how hard it is for a support to make an impact in an early game favoring meta if you ever fall behind in lane. I've already made a post about my opinion of each of the supports and how I feel about their current states with a post not to long ago (I'll put a link in the comments if you're interested). So that said, I feel there should be things that can enable ANY champion to at least attempt to support. Also I feel support items need to be tweaked to make them more worthwhile.

So for the first but I'm gonna talk about the current items and what changes could be made to improve them in my opinion

#Spellthief's Edge>Remnant of the Watchers 200 health 35 Ap 10%CDR +2 gold per ten seconds +50% Base Mana Regeneration Tribute rewards 10>20g with three stacks and a penalty if you kill lane minions

My problem with Spellthief's Edge Firstly you don't get any lane sustain with this item which is a big problem considering the high damage you can take as a squishy caster. The main problem is it's recommended on BASICALLY every champ that is ap and has spells. Which is fine, but not having any protections or health regen on someone like Soraka (and yes I know how Starcall works, but even with that you're forced to make awkward trades to survive lane and newer supports tend to die by being TOO AGGRESSIVE because items are pretty costly) is a big issue.

Changes I'd like to see looked into Spellthief's Edge: 10ap +3 gold per ten seconds~ 30% Base Mana Regeneration Make the passive tribute damage 10 not 13 Frostfang build from Spellthief's Edge+ rejuvenation bead

Frostfang: 20ap +3 gold per ten seconds~ 40% Base Mana Regeneration 50% Base Health Regeneration Same passive but with the number changed from 18 to 20

Remnant of the Watchers: 250 Health 40ap +3 gold per ten second~ 50% Mana Regeneration 50% health Regeneration Same passive but 30 damage not 18 Unique passive (Arcane fulfillment): Allies that attack champions you have damaged within the last 5 seconds heal for 30 health (+15 per Remnant of the Watchers holders level). This effect can only happen once per allied champion with an individual cooldown of 120 seconds. Damaging marked enemy champion heals the Remnant of the Watchers holder for 10(+5 health per level) can be triggered by each teammate, but like the prior will give each teammate a cooldown of 120 seconds before they can deal damage that would heal the Remnant of the Watchers holder again.

I feel like regen and better numbers would make less people reluctant to buy the item because it would offer more. Plus by adding that passive supports like Zyra and Brand and Morgana can sustain themselves and their carry better.

#Ancient coin> Remnant of the Ascended 200 Health 10 movement speed 125% Health Regeneration 10% CDR +2 gold per 10 seconds Passive 25 gold and 6% missing Mana> 45 gold and 6% missing Mana

My problem with Ancient coin Movement speed is great but getting no real stats to show for it sucks, plus coin encourages sitting back, which riot is clearly pushing away from with the early game focus.

Changes I'd like to see looked into Ancient coin: +5ad/10ap adaptive +5 movement speed 5% CDR +3 gold per ten seconds Only change to passive, if like the mana coins to give back 3% maximum Mana instead of 6% missing mana

Nomad's medallion: +10 ad/15ap adaptive The same but with the passive change and the gold per 10 increased to 3

Remnant of the Ascended: 250 Health +15 ad/20 ap adaptive Everything else can stay just the gold per 10 change and the passive tweak. Unique Aura (Call of the Ascended): allies within x units gain 10 movement speed while near the Remnant of the Ascended holder. Allies near the Remnant of the Ascended holder also regen an additional 10 health per 25 seconds and regen an additional 5 mana per 15 seconds.

I feel these changes will 1 make coin more valuable, and 2 allow coin purchasers to have more of an impact without being AS squishy and give more off meta picks (or Pyke) options to be relevant. It would also help them sustain in lane while not over healing anyone. Although I can understand if Mana coins remain 6% missing mana rather than 3% of maximum. I was just curious to see how that would play out, but thinking about it a 3000 mana Sona getting 3% mana back does seem a bit over loaded.

#Relic shield>Remnant of the Aspect 350 Health 200% health regen 10% CDR +1 gold per ten seconds Melee basic attacks execute minions granting the killer and the nearest Ally the gold so long as the owner has a stack available Heals both for 15>40>50 health+ 2% of missing health Stack charges go from 2>3>4 and have a 40>30>20 second recharge time

My problem with Relic Shield People who know me know I thoroughly enjoy locking Leona in and slamming my shield into people's faces. However, with all these high damage super squishy carries running around I feel like getting the most out of the item is incredibly difficult. 1-your adc kills the minion you were trying to execute and now you don't get cannon gold you get stuck with casters 2-if your adc dies, unlike Spellthief's where you can still poke, or coin where you can clear the waves and collect coins, you can only pray that you can last hit the minions while not being able to make tribute money unless your jungler is generous enough to hold lane with you while you wait for your adc. 3-You run out of Mana and have no resistances from it 4- 1 gold?! Sure you can make a lot if you get every cannon and melee, but if you have a hurricane purchasing adc like Jinx GOOD LUCK cuz she'll probably accidently kill it. And Jhin and Draven have rythms to their farming and do EXTREME damage to minions. Then there's kaisa, who can't aim her q so half the time she'll accidently kill the minion you're trying to execute. Finally Ezreal..... While stacking tear he's just gonna spam Q, and even with his W attack speed having to fight to get farm because of him is ridiculously frustrating. It needs to be more efficient at least.

Changes I'd like to see looked into Relic Shield: 80 health +1 gold per ten seconds 5 armor 5 magic resist +50 damage vs lane minions while stacks are available Passive same but add: Upon executing a minion restores 25 Mana or 5 energy

Targon's Brace: 150 health 50% Health Regeneration +1 gold per ten seconds 10 armor 10 magic resist +80 damage vs lane minions while stacks are available Passive the same but add: Upon executing a lane minion restores 30 Mana or 15 energy

Remnant of the Aspect: 300 health 150% Health Regeneration +1 gold per ten seconds 20 armor 20 magic resist 10%CDR +100 damage against lane minions while stacks are available Passive the same but add: Upon executing a lane minion restores 40 Mana or 20 energy Unique Aura (Fight as one): allies within x range that fall below 25% health get a 50(+10 per Remnant of the Aspects holders level) health shield. Has a general cooldown of 60 seconds so in the middle of a team fight the whole team doesn't get a shield out of the blue. Individual cooldown (for the person who was shielded) is 240 seconds. Shield does not apply to the owner of Remnant of the Ascended. Effect can trigger Guardian.

I feel like those changes would make Relic shield a lot less punishing against things like Brand or Morgana or Swain who basically prevent you from making decent money, and will make it easier to farm without fighting your adc to do so. I would understand if the charge refresh timer was increased a bit. It should also be added that the additional minion damage only works when within x range of an allied champion so solo laners don't try to replace Doran's shield with this.

Coming to a close for this post, the items being buffed would certainly entail raising the price a bit, but I feel like it is valuable and beneficial to consider. I'd love to hear other people's opinions on these ideas, and would appreciate a response from Riot, and to read the comments of others on the matter. Later I'll make another post on support items that you buy later on like redemption and locket and my opinions on those items and what could improve them.

28 Comments

TonyTonyMordecai2 votes

That was always my biggest problem with relic shield, the fact that coin was superior if you went Thresh or Pyke because you got the mana sustain from the coins, but not from killing the minions, only health.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

That was always my biggest problem with relic shield, the fact that coin was superior if you went Thresh or Pyke because you got the mana sustain from the coins, but not from killing the minions, only health.

Plus taking Relic on Thresh requires a mutual understanding of, "Im not melee but we need sustain so I have Relic, but I either use abilities to cs or you help a brotha out" Tough times lol

SwiftKitten882 votes

the problem with support items is quite simple

the tier 2 items are absurdly strong because of the 800 free gold of the sightstone passive were the t3 items are complete trash in comparison for gold efficiency

this flat out means there is no point upgrading to t3 over your next core item.

it use to be we would grab a sightstone

and the ACTIVE on the support item made it worth upgrading before we built any other items

now we get what? 200 hp and another ward spot for 1600 more gold??? NTY

its absolute trash.

damage creep for ap mage support for the most part didnt really hit support all that bad until they made this change.. because you had to buy sightstone AND finish item 3312

but ever since they deleted sightstone... its absolutely worthless efficiency wise to go past item 3098 until your full build. when u could be building important supporting/ap core items with said gold

so not only do we NOT spend 800 gold on sightstone... there is about 1200 more gold after sight stone we dont spend toward item 3312

this basically means we are getting our core items... around 2k gold faster as support than we used to.. because they items we WANTED to spend the gold on.. have been deleted. and the next best thing is anything EXCEPT the t3 support item..

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

the problem with support items is quite simple

the tier 2 items are absurdly strong because of the 800 free gold of the sightstone passive were the t3 items are complete trash in comparison for gold efficiency

this flat out means there is no point upgrading to t3 over your next core item.

it use to be we would grab a sightstone

and the ACTIVE on the support item made it worth upgrading before we built any other items

now we get what? 200 hp and another ward spot for 1600 more gold??? NTY

its absolute trash.

damage creep for ap mage support for the most part didnt really hit support all that bad until they made this change.. becuase you had to buy sightstone AND finish item 3312

but ever since they deleted sightstone... its absolutely worthless efficiency wise to go past item 3098 until your full build. when u could be building important supporting/ap core items with said gold

so not only do we NOTspend 800 gold on sightstone... there is about 1200 more gold after sight stone we dont spend toward item 3312

this basically means we are getting our core items... around 2k gold faster as support than we used to.. because they item we WANTED to spend the gold on.. have been deleted. and the next best thing is anything EXCEPT the t3 support item..

Yup Rip useful t3 Now I can ward and.... Have hp? But not as much hp? Was mmmm wut

Linna Excel2 votes

Part of me thinks that item 3303 should be adaptive for AD/AP champs just in case you get a support MissFortune Ashe or whatever.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZsrpmfxF,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-07-10T02:12:44.038+0000)

Part of me thinks that item 3303 should be adaptive for AD/AP champs just in case you get a support MissFortune Ashe or whatever.

Not a bad idea but the numbers would definitely need tweaking

15422 votes

i've been playing veigar support for at least 3 years, always pick coin, even if it doesn't give AP coin gives CDR, MS, mana sustain and ofc occasional gold coins, current support items are not worth upgrade to their fullest, since at tier 2 it already gives you 3 wards and nice bonus, it would be nice to see some improvement towards supports since real supports are boring as hell to play, the only good real supp is leona and that's cause she has lots of dmg early and a hell of CC.

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

item 3302 is for melee/front line supports who dont typically have a heal but need to have some sustain in lane and a way to sustain harass being front line item 3303 is for champs who need ap damage, mana regen and poke but usually have range or cc to keep safe hence why it has no sustain item 3301 is for the champs who are super passive who need stats for mana/gold but typically arent any where close to front line

so all 3 items are diverse in a way that in most cases suits the need of the champ that needs a certain item in lane. for a long time there has been a power creep from the support role , they dont have to buy wards any more or a sightstone, they have typically some of strongest base stats in game and now get a boost in gold income due to changes. hence why alot of the support items have been getting nerfed and certain ENCHANTER SUPPORTS have had their shields nerfed.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

item 3302 is for melee/front line supports who dont typically have a heal but need to have some sustain in lane and a way to sustain harass being front line item 3303 is for champs who need ap damage, mana regen and poke but usually have range or cc to keep safe hence why it has no sustain item 3301 is for the champs who are super passive who need stats for mana/gold but typically arent any where close to front line

so all 3 items are diverse in a way that in most cases suits the need of the champ that needs a certain item in lane. for a long time there has been a power creep from the support role , they dont have to buy wards any more or a sightstone, they have typically some of strongest base stats in game and now get a boost in gold income due to changes. hence why alot of the support items have been getting nerfed and certain ENCHANTER SUPPORTS have had their shields nerfed.

Still can't buy items unless you win lane at least not good items, and falling behind? Rip then pray for carry These ideas are to make supports be able to be relevant and not just get 3 shot every time they come to lane, while allowing for unique picks to be more acceptable

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

{quoted}

Still can't buy items unless you win lane

you can buy items regardless if u win lane you get more earlier and buy items faster giving you a lead. to say you cant buy items unless you win lane isnt correct

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

you can buy items regardless if u win lane you get more earlier and buy items faster giving you a lead. to say you cant buy items unless you win lane isnt correct

The last few times I played Braum since the current patch came out I lost because once they have their core item if you already died you just die more

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

{quoted}

The last few times I played Braum since the current patch came out I lost because once they have their core item if you already died you just die more

ok but braum isnt good in the current patch . he is the 22nd best support so you played a weak meta champ and got beat that has nothing to do with items

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

ok but braum isnt good in the current patch . he is the 22nd best support so you played a weak meta champ and got beat that has nothing to do with items

That's the reason the items need to be changed Too many good champs can't be played because the meta, if Braum didn't have to buy a shroud to have Mana in lane and not be oom after 6 minutes that'd be great

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

{quoted}

That's the reason the items need to be changed Too many good champs can't be played because the meta, if Braum didn't have to buy a shroud to have Mana in lane and not be oom after 6 minutes that'd be great

ever think about not spamming spells and wait til u have an engage or have to disengage? also there is manaflow ban. braum isnt good cuz the supports that are good and the meta of bot lane makes him bad. it has nothing to do with relic shield.

i played braum a week ago and i smashed in the lane but it was a good pick considering my lane adc (yasou) team comp vs enemy team comp. you cant just blindly pick a champ with not thought process and spam abilities off cooldown and expect to have good results

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

ever think about not spamming spells and wait til u have an engage or have to disengage? also there is manaflow ban. braum isnt good cuz the supports that are good and the meta of bot lane makes him bad. it has nothing to do with relic shield.

i played braum a week ago and i smashed in the lane but it was a good pick considering my lane adc (yasou) team comp vs enemy team comp. you cant just blindly pick a champ with not thought process and spam abilities off cooldown and expect to have good results

I did, the fact still stands the items are bad and need some change because everyone either healing or bursting (or both, Aatrox) all game with the current items isn't what it used to be pre infinity edge changes

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

hmm i just played braum i went 0-1-7 team FF @ 20

last time i played braum went 0-3-10 and won team also FF

how is it other supports are FINE WITH THE ITEMS but cuz braum isnt they need to be changed ?

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

hmm i just played braum i went 0-1-7 team FF @ 20

last time i played braum went 0-3-10 and won team also FF

how is it other supports are FINE WITH THE ITEMS but cuz braum isnt they need to be changed ?

Fine with? Relic sucks, if your adc dies for whatever reason most can't last hit Spellthief's sucks, the teir three item isn't worth buying because if it's a mage they have better things to buy, plus if your adc ever dies and you're forced to clear the wave, prepare to be penalized And aside from thresh I can't remember a support with coin as a recommended item anymore because champs that buy coin tend to not be the early game champ that the meta demands

In conclusion the items need to be changed because being subjugated to meta slavery isn't fun

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

{quoted}

Fine with? Relic sucks, if your adc dies for whatever reason most can't last hit Spellthief's sucks, the teir three item isn't worth buying because if it's a mage they have better things to buy, plus if your adc ever dies and you're forced to clear the wave, prepare to be penalized And aside from thresh I can't remember a support with coin as a recommended item anymore because champs that buy coin tend to not be the early game champ that the meta demands

In conclusion the items need to be changed because being subjugated to meta slavery isn't fun

its ok you can continue to cry about supports when they were the most over buffed role in the game and just now being brought back into line

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

its ok you can continue to cry about supports when they were the most over buffed role in the game and just now being brought back into line

No That's not acceptable, it's not back into line, it's everything that does damage got buffed and shield supports got nerfed, and mages in the bot lane shit on tank supports. So if your gonna be one of those blind people who thinks he who punches first one shots or gets one shot is okay, well that's the issue

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

{quoted}

No That's not acceptable, it's not back into line, it's everything that does damage got buffed and shield supports got nerfed, and mages in the bot lane shit on tank supports. So if your gonna be one of those blind people who thinks he who punches first one shots or gets one shot is okay, well that's the issue

mage supports always shit on tank supports cuz they can poke and do damage its nothing new

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

mage supports always shit on tank supports cuz they can poke and do damage its nothing new

Getting chunked as Leona with Aftershock ticking+w at max rank by 2 abilities isn't what if I'd call shitting on, I'd call it ignoring the very large amount of resistances with a frostfang and Oblivion orb, not even sorc shoes, just 1 unfinished item... That's a bit too much

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

{quoted}

Getting chunked as Leona with Aftershock ticking+w at max rank by 2 abilities isn't what if I'd call shitting on, I'd call it ignoring the very large amount of resistances with a frostfang and Oblivion orb, not even sorc shoes, just 1 unfinished item... That's a bit too much

aftershock dont give you any resistances til you engage on a target so you arent being poked down through aftershock. leona isnt a high damage out put champ she is a cc bot. item 3098 gives bonus damage on spells item 3916 typically isnt bought in lane .

i have mained support since end of season 2 /preseason 3 i have played and mained nearly every support in the game. my favs are hard engage tank supports. so i have alot of experience in these bad match ups/ etc

i know if i see brand or zyra picked im not playing braum/leona etc you cant blindly pick anything into any enemy and think you are gonna be ok. champ select /team comp is part of the strategy of the game

KlydeFrog1 votes

Relic shield has always had the lowest gold gain. Then they buffed it to 4 i think every 10 sec. Which is where it should be

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

Relic shield has always had the lowest gold gain. Then they buffed it to 4 i think every 10 sec. Which is where it should be

It's not at four

KlydeFrog1 votes

Used to be then they nerfed it

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

Used to be then they nerfed it

Well that makes sense 4 gold is a bit extreme

KlydeFrog1 votes

Umm not really since hell after laning trying to get procs off it is about useless while you do pract nothing to get gold off frost queens and talisman of ascension

CaptainAntiHeroz2 votes

{quoted}

Umm not really since hell after laning trying to get procs off it is about useless while you do pract nothing to get gold off frost queens and talisman of ascension

If I had money for items on a Relic champ that didn't need to devote money to Mana items I'd just farm enemy champions like the predator missle I was born to be Leona item 3117 item 3800

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