Boards›Gameplay

Udyr nerfs

FACE THE WlND··3 votes·2,181 views

I think these nerfs seem a bit excessive, it seems as though riot is taking away Udyr's tank gameplay style by gutting his base damage, when Udyr is known for his ability to fill multiple roles, and is now forced into the devourer build which is far from optimal. Udyr's damage is already quite low late game with the current runic echos build unless you buy one damage item such as wits end or maw (which is being nerfed in a way where it won't be nearly as good on Udyr). So what I suggest is maybe rethink these changes into either reducing early game damage on pheonix form, but keep late game the same/better, and/or reducing his stun duration, or movement speed early game, which will force the player to decide whether they want more utility with bear stance, or more durability with turtle, which would fix the runic echos abuse but still allow it to be a decent build path for Udyr. I think the latter would be a great nerf for Udyr as it allows runic echos/tank Udyr to still be viable, but not as oppressive early game as it is now.

Udyr Base Health Regen lowered to 1.2 from 1.742 Phoenix Stance (R) Damage per second lowered to 10/20/30/40/50 from 15/25/35/45/55 Third hit damage decreased to 25/60/95/130/165 from 40/75/110/145/180.

30 Comments

GenghisEmo3 votes

Well, i like the nerf early game idea. But he builds any jg item, plus full tank and assassinates faster than Zed, while being unkillable.

So he can still build any jg item and kill fast as tank Ekko once late game hits.

I think i prefer nerf lategame. Assuming you live through it, you can deny him hard and outscale. Which sounds better i think, cause he then builds more atk to dish out more dmg, or more ap. Or builds straight tank, but wont oneshot.

BUT, i am open to changing my mind.

So far, id say im more "on the fence" than anything.

FACE THE WlND1 votes

Do you think his late game is strong atm and needs some nerfs, or its not too strong but should be nerfed more so that it is a more defined weakness?

GenghisEmo1 votes

i think he is good all the time.

But i think his early game is the real problem. Farms like crazy, ganks like crazy, barely takes any damage. Like Shyvana, literally gets sated hell of quick.

BUT, that being said, his late game is soloing everyone no matter the build. Gets one single attack item, dev or echoes, and then full tank and assassinates more crazily than Zed or Talon (before Talon's nerfs).

So i think both can use some nerfs. One so he doesnt clear so freaking fast and then proceed to lv 3 gank and tower dive while being rewarded even when failing to kill.

And late game so he doesnt just spam ms abilities and shield on top of being able to burst hard while being tanky as f.

Though, which is the bigger problem? Or which deserves the heavier nerfs? That is where i am on the fence.

Cause both seem OP, but which is the real issue can be debated.

FACE THE WlND1 votes

He should be able to solo anyone, he is a split pusher and a great dueler. Always bring a buddy to stop an Udyr if possible. If you go devourer on Udyr you lose your early game pressure assuming you're against a decent team, and are very squishy throughout most of the game. Runic Echos is the only "overpowered" build path as I see it because it just synergizes so dang well, and gives him a huge power spike early/mid game, but he falls off late. This is why I strongly disagree that nerfing his damage the ought all stages of the game is the complete wrong way to go about nerfing Udyr. His insane utility is obviously a problem, nerf movement speed in bear stance to say, 10% at lvl 1 scaling to where it is now, or maybe slightly lower which makes it so that the Udyr player has to make the decision of whether he/she wants utility with bear stance or tankiness with turtle, which will make him much less opressive and take away some early ganking power. I do not think his late game is overpowered, what makes his late still so strong to you?

GenghisEmo1 votes

im not saying he should not be able to 1v1, what im saying is he isnt an assassin while fulltank and should not be able to 1v5.

Dev is OP on him. He farms so well in S6, doesnt matter if you steal his camps.

Ppl complained about Elise, but i was able to shut her down fine.

Udyr, on the other hand, not so simple. Same with Graves and Jax. Now they are more bearable, but still too safe even when behind.

Echoes is just straight up broken.

What makes his late so strong is he builds tank, with echoes and especially with dev, and then goes bear, to stun, phoenix, an mashing right click to kill you in about 1 second. UNLESS you are actually a tank or got a QSS.

He is strong pretty much all game. Yes he does have minor weaknesses, and your idea will clearly make it so that he has choices to make and any choice can be the wrong thing, instead of "any thing is right, all the time" as it is now.

Udyr split pushing top, his team gets rekt late game, and he just appears out o nowhere with half health cc-ing everything, cathing up to all, and tanky as f. Yes he still eventually die, but a free win after the absurd death timers should have netted a the win only for Udyr to single handedly save it.

He clears towers freaking fast. And when timers can be a minute at aroung 30 minutes into the game, he pretty much saves your team by splitting so hard that enemies are racing to finish or backing to prevent him.

In other words, UTILITY while TANK + 1 OFFENSIVE ITEM are the issue. I thought i mentioned this a lot?

Guy gets freelo damage throughout match. Which is fine, but after Season 6 (and i thought Sated was broken Season 5, i was dead wrong) he is way stronger since towers are paper, dont deal any damage, minions push themselves (especially if Udyr goes for towers). Dev makes champs weaker early on, but Udyr's camp clears and utility make is so he can excert an absurd amount of pressure w/o having to back often and then use the time to farm instead of basing. While other junglers base. True Late game junglers are still weak as f. Jarvan's buffs did help, but Dev Udyr still out scales, no matter how much armor you get on as Jarvan since Udyr will burst you down and cc you, and then proceed to clean you up. While Sejuani's cc and lockdown are great, Udyr can still be so tanky it is a waste. So it is obviously better to go after his allies, and then hope Udyr does not reach back line in time while his allies are being targeted.

Only champ that i can think of that comes close early on is Lee (but has a higher skill cap, and Nocturne, who has more clear definitive strengths and weaknesses).

He is one nasty dude all game.

But i'm still not sure where the problem starts. So it is the kit that is the issue in this meta of burst and nukes with some great tanky items that still give dmg.

I still like your idea for a nerf. Must be better than anything Riot came up with (lately they cant balance well or dont only give us placebo nerfs XD). So the Udyr nerf in my opinion, the one he is getting 6.7, actually isnt enough. It seems like a Placebo more or a band-aid more than a real nerf.

FACE THE WlND1 votes

I hate how this all ties back to the unbalance in items, but I don't think these harsh nerfs are justified, they're giving Udyr the Evelyn treatment and I hate to see it. In total after these nerfs go through, Udyr lost 20 on his shield at max level, and in total loses 45 damage on his w which procs so often so it will definitely add up, and Udyr will do significantly less damage, and the -20 damage on runic echos. They said they didn't want to nerf any one strength of Udyr but just tone down his overall strength but that is not what's going on here. Gutting his base damages is just not the answer. I appreciate your point of view! :)

GenghisEmo1 votes

Yes it is the items that are the cause. But idk why riot wont touch the items that are so OP.

But he has been deserving some nerfs sonce S5 with Dev/Sated.

Cause items are a fine line to nerf. Potential to nerfs underwhelming champs i guess. But some still feel OP XD. So thevsimple solution is nerf champ.

Then get Sejuani'd once item gets nerfed (she deserved some nerfs).

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

nope. I'd nerf him even more if i had the power to.

FACE THE WlND2 votes

Why? What would you suggest? I just want to know what riot is trying to do with these nerfs, and why they chose to nerf his base damages two patches in a row as opposed to looking at other areas of his kit, or nerfing early/mid game strength, while buffing or keeping late game damage the same.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

hes an annoying champion that is played to simply cause trouble to get objective instead of getting objectives directly. too tanky. does too much damage. has constant speed boost. impossible to lock down. annoying as hell. kill it with fire

FACE THE WlND2 votes

Do you think it is Udyr that is too strong, or the items that he abuses?

Crowe Stalker1 votes

Udyr has literally been relevant in every season this game has ever had. Before he got nerfed a few patches ago, there was never a time you could not pick him. Furthermore, he is relevant with literally any Jungle Enchantment. He can reach movement speeds in excess of 360 before a single item (Highest base is MasterYi with like, 355) ignoring Bear Stance and he usually gets a item 3078 too. There are games where Yi and Hecarim, who can reach some of the highest thresholds of consistent movement speed, will literally get circles run around them. Udyr can build effectively anything and make it work.

Udyr deserved to have his passive movement speed taken out and his base movement speed further reduced. He can reach fucking obscene speeds which makes it near impossible to counter him. He has some of the best early dueling in the game for someone who has a very low skill floor (don't fucking start on 'low floor means high ceiling')

Udyr needs nerfs, he's needed them for several seasons and only now with Runic Echoes is Riot finally acknowledging this. I only wish they hit his fucking stupid movement capabilities instead of his damage (having high base damage and decent scaling is okay but having those while being able to run circles around the fastest champions in the League is not okay.)

FACE THE WlND1 votes

He lacks mobility in any other form than movement speed and he has no ranged attacks/abilities he is restricted to his melee attack range, so if you remove movement speed from his kit he will become utterly useless.

FACE THE WlND1 votes

Udyr excels at duels, and lacks in team fighting strength, don't try to solo him, pick champions with hard cc to stop him. Hard cc counters Udyr like it does Darius or Nasus because he has no dash,blink, or other non movement speed related mobility, and will get shut down hard by it.

Crowe Stalker1 votes

Mordekaiser laughs at your 'uselessness'

Udyr can duel and gank as early as level 2. He can split push He can skirmish He can chase He can run He can seriously outrun people whose selling point is their extreme movement speed.

I've had a game as 40% CDR Kassadin where I had to literally chase him from bot lane outer tower to top inner with item 3116 and item 3285 to kill him. All he has was item 3009 (not enchanted) and item 3078.

Udyr's movement speed is just fucked up. Get rid of the MS on his passive and maybe shave off 5 on his base to be certain, and then he'll have actual weaknesses besides lackluster scaling (and even he's not the worst of non-scaling junglers, just look at Evelynn )

FACE THE WlND1 votes

Sorry, I forgot Udyr has a dragon, can control the enemy adc, has a free shield built into his kit, has percent health dmg, an instant heal, a 3 hit nuke on his q. You have to understand they are two completely different champions who excel in different areas. [Edit] Oh, sorry I forgot Udyr has a permanent invisibility passive.

Crowe Stalker1 votes

Mordekaiser has literally no mobility or CC without items and a solid support, his Shield is laughable to anyone with half-decent poke, his heal is also pathetic if you are poking, his Q got massively nerfed and is nowhere near the Nuke people remember it was.

And Evelynn can't do jack shit in the current meta aside from blow a few Summoners not because she's actually a threat but people are getting jumpscared. Even then Shaco does it better.

FACE THE WlND1 votes

Morde rework was a failure, either broken or underpowered, lost his identity. Same with Evelyn and riot has decided to nerf her until a rework because when she is good she is too oppressive. I don't think Udyr is classified as broken, I believe he can easily be balanced, and was, but recent items/meta changes were/are heavily in Udyr's favor.

Crossette2 votes

he honestly deserves this

Kian9872 votes

He deserves every single nerf and I'll tell you more. He needs even more nerfs!

He pulverises turrents in seconds, has tons of damage, sustain, tankiness, movement speed, CC, unbelivable on-hit and aoe damage. You need almost your entire team to stop him from splitpushing but you can't kill/chase him because of his movement speed and tankiness. As soon as you go back to another lane, he can immediately splitpush again. He can win games alone and be devastating.

Playing against a main is the most horrific and anti-fun experience ever because alone he can put an enormous amount of pressure on a single lane alone forcing you to defend as 3, 4 or 5 and leave objectives and other lanes. As a Skarner main going with full movement speed I can't reach him even when moving inside the area of my crystals!

Now tell me how a champion that cannot be chased, on which CC are wothless, that cannot be killed easily even 5 vs 1, that alone can splitpush better than 3 Tryndameres combined, that can take more damage than baron and deal more damage than your carry is balanced.

He's the god of splitpushing, fights, chases, CC, sustain, speed, on-hit effects, he can poke, peel, kill, tank, he goes well with almost every item, superb clearing time in jungle, good ganks, he can AFK farm, win games activelly and passivelly, he's good in all phases of the game etc. I only have one question: what are his weak points?

FACE THE WlND1 votes

I believe Udyr's weak point is late game, yes, he excels and is currently too strong early and mid game, but I do not agree that nerfing his late game/damage over and over is the way to go about it. I do agree his damage is absurd after getting runic echos, and even more after he gets iceborn gauntlet, but once it gets to late game and your enemies get health or resists Udyr just does not scale. This is why I suggest nerfing early game damage while buffing his late game damage slightly or keeping it as it is now, because his damage output late game is quite low. Udyr's kit has not been touched in so long but is overpowered now, why is that? It's because the meta is perfect for him, items that are strong at the moment synergise perfectly with his kit/play style, and games end so shortly due short death timers, weak towers, and the minion advantage once you get a lead which makes it so that games more likely than not do not enter the late game where Udyr falls off. Udyr has always been an excellent split pusher, but split pushing is easily countered if you know how to respond to it which most decent players do. So all in all, what I'm trying to say is that if you nerf Udyr's early by hitting his utility or damage, whilst buffing his late slightly, or keeping it where it's at now, because I believe it is balanced as is, that will balance him, and take off some of his early ganking pressure and make his early to mid game less oppressive. Or you could go the route of nerfing the items which are too strong on Udyr such as iceborn gauntlet, runic echos, zzrot (nerfed), maybe sunfire, all of which are currently too strong and I think most people would agree, and buffing Udyr to compensate, but this method is not preferred because it will hurt champions that the items are helping but not breaking them. tl;dr Udyr's early to mid is too strong, while his late is weak/balanced but games are too short to reach that point. Nerf early game utility/damage and keep late the same or buff slightly, or nerf items that are too good on Udyr. What would you suggest riot does? [Edit] Could also increase cool downs and/or mana costs at early levels and revert damage nerfs.

Kian9872 votes

I don't really know how you can balance him and I think that probably it's not even possible with the current state of the game in this season. It doesn't matter how hard you try to plan your nerfs. Some specific items will always excel on some specific champions and you can't change it with nerfs. Let me explain.

Jax is a monster with the guinso Shyvana is godlike with devourer Graves is insanely tanky with dead man

We can all agree on the fact that they work extremely good with these items and that they deserve to be severely toned down. You have two options here:

  • Nerf items? No. It's not fair. I can use all these items also on other champions! The dead man plate on my Skarner was fine, the titanic hydra was ok on my Shen (...) but guess what? They nerfed them because Fiora, Jax, Graves were ABUSING of these items. It's an entire season that I have to suffer for nerfs of my core items just because Fiora, Jax, Graves are ABUSING of them. Unlike them I'm USING these items. Can RIOT finally leave me alone? :D
  • Nerf champions? No. It's not enough. A Shyvana with devourer and more in general the devourer is a broken concept. It doesn't matter how hard to try to nerf Shyvana. Sooner or later she will destroy you.

Sadly I'm very negative with the current state of the game. I'd pay 300€ to see devourer, guinso etc. removed from the game. 200€ to see great buffs on all other champions so that we can finally play at the same level. 100€ to bind some items to specific classes/champions so that for example Shynava is not allowed to buy devouer.

FACE THE WlND1 votes

Chaos ensues

GenghisEmo2 votes

Quite informative pov.

Ty for sharing.

Im still on fence about early or late game nerfs.

FACE THE WlND1 votes

Thanks for the input! :)

quasistellar2 votes

These nerfs are pretty troubling. . . Udyr excelled at the stick-and-move style gameplay with high movespeed and resistance items. He got so strong with Zzrot, Iceborne, Swifties, and Ludens, that he needed some toning down for sure. One thing he never had was very high damage lategame. They nerfed almost every item that he uses and 2 of his 4 skills, and now they've nerfed his base regen as well.

I feel these nerfs were pretty uncalled for after the last round of nerfs. Do they expect people to build damage items on him? If you do that, you'll melt and accomplish literally nothing. He's not like Yi who can use well timed Alpha Strikes to avoid crowd control--he literally just runs at you.

This feels suspiciously like the "Eve treatment" here. Meanwhile, Lee Sin. . . grumble

Anyway, I think they should compensate by giving him a little power somewhere else. Maybe increase the lifesteal portion of Turtle stance, or the AD ratio on Tiger.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

Udyr's damage is already quite low late game with the current runic echos build

That item wasn't even meant for Udyr in the first place, so the nerfs was deserved.

FACE THE WlND1 votes

What do you mean it wasn't meant for Udyr? Are you saying that items should only be bought on certain champions and if it is good on other champions they deserve nerfs? Item diversity is accepted by riot, and I'm sure they foresaw runic echos being good on tanks, but not how oppressive it would be on some. I agree it deserved the nerfs, but this set of nerfs to Udyr is over the top, I just don't believe it's the correct way to nerf Udyr.

GomuGomuNoBazuka1 votes

can we buff udyr again pls thanks ;)

Vad Nova1 votes

[{quoted}](name=CLG ARLOUMBAS,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZoOYN1bA,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-01-31T23:58:24.704+0000)

can we buff udyr again pls thanks ;)

what in gods name are you doing..

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