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So now that everyone remembers that Kayle actually exists...

SaltyToplaneGoat··82 votes·4,291 views

... can we please talk about a potential rework?

Like seriously, she really needs it. I'd even put her on the same level as Urgot and Warwick with it. Her theme is not well fleshed out despite there being quite some depth one could work with, and the execution of said theme is more than shoddy. She has wings but doesn't use them, screams "into the fray" but stand 98674968744968 miles away from you while making reptitive motions with her right hand (and the firesword that's in that hand), one of the smallest VOs, and going by lore she shouldn't be even existing.

And her kit regulary breaks the game when it's strong, and is complety garvage when the meta is not in her favor. Someone remember when feral flare oder devourer came into the game? Until then she was garbage, then one item came, no other changes, and she pretty much became a must-ban monster that could 1vs5 your entire team. Then the item was removed, no further change was done, and she vanished into obsurity again...

Also, I do get the feeling that this should be a dual rework, as you can't work on Kayle without having an eye on Morgana, even tho she needs less work on the gameplay side (a VU would be nice, then she'd be upgraded from "walking tent" to "having actual legs").

100 Comments

MunchCrunchLunch17 votes

she needs a rework more than warwick and pantheon. shes the most stat check champion in the game. shes a worse designed version of kog maw. shes worse than tryndamere.

SaltyToplaneGoat17 votes

Not exactly sure if she is "worse", but she definetly is on their level... Pantheon would be a way easier rework tho, as with the targon lore there is a lot more material to work with. Kayle is more an idea of "we want an angel character", with absolutely zero uniqueness or inspiration as it is now...

It Hertz When IP4 votes

So long as she doesn't get bundled into Targon, I'd be happy. I got her/attempted to learn to play her precisely BECAUSE she's a generic angel-themed champion.

Her, Morgana, Warwick, and Soraka could totally have their own lore section. TBH lore-wise it doesn't even need much of a rewrite as their original lores have awesome backgrounds that end with "and then they joined the IoW for reasons". Just cut out that part and it's still readable.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

make her and morgana darkin imo

It Hertz When IP2 votes

Not darkin specifically, but I could definitely see the lore tie-in. Maybe the angels (need cooler race name) and the darkin are at war with each other and Morg defected? Could really do a whole sister-traitor angle there to build some tension between them.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

I mean, I think it would work pretty well since the darkin are an established winged race. and there's been the theory that their look changes on how you perceive them- justicar aatrox is how he looks to those he fights with. they don't all have to look as inhuman as aatrox either

There's a lot to work with

It Hertz When IP4 votes

And yet, Riot released one darkin champion with no surrounding lore build up, then never mentioned them again...

Abyssphere1 votes

You think they're going to retcon angels into demons?

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

They're related to each other and there's nothing that says every darkin is like aatrox

Abyssphere1 votes

They're related to each other in the same way that criminals and police officers are related to each other. You wouldn't rework Twisted Fate into an enforcer of the law.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

anything to move away from literally having an angel and demon in the game in such a dumb way lol

but morgana and kayle are canonically the same species, morgana is just 'fallen' or whatever

Best Kog NA2 votes

Actually that makes a ton of sense. I picked her up a while ago when Kog'Maw was getting banned a ton in ranked. That might explain why she "Clicked" for me.

Only Play Darius1 votes

I like to think of her as a ranged Tryndamere who does AOE damage and can share his ult.

Hella Kaiser4 votes

but doesn't crit at lvl 1.

Skias2 votes

{quoted}

she needs a rework more than warwick and pantheon. shes the most stat check champion in the game. shes a worse designed version of kog maw. shes worse than tryndamere.

No one is worse than Tryndamere. That champion is crap.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

With that I have to wholeheartly agree with you.

However reworking that guy would be a total pain - almost nothing really worthwhile you could salvage from the current kit, and then there is the problem that he somehow needs to fill a different fantasy than Olaf. At least that guy has his funny moment at times (especially in the harrowing story...)

Skias1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZnFG2ZyE,comment-id=000000030000,timestamp=2016-09-14T19:15:46.407+0000)

With that I have to wholeheartly agree with you.

However reworking that guy would be a total pain - almost nothing really worthwhile you could salvage from the current kit, and then there is the problem that he somehow needs to fill a different fantasy than Olaf. At least that guy has his funny moment at times (especially in the harrowing story...)

Yeah that's the problem with certain champions. Some of them would never even have gotten close to being in production today. So what do you do? Every champ must have fans. But his kit is thoroughly bad. Like with Sion, they chose to kill the toxic champ and rebuild him. Its just something you have to do.

My main Taric they did the same thing. His playstyle is completely different, but I feel they did a good job with him. I love him just as much as, if not more than before.

Tryndamere needs to be ripped to the ground. The deny death thing is pretty much the only thing he's known for. Other than never helping the team and staying top.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

The problem is that designing a melee character is always trickier than a ranged kit, unless you can slap something like cc in there what makes tank/support design a bit easier. But without that? You need an ability rotation that a) works together with the basic attack and b) needs yet to be more effective than the character just building AD/crit and ignoring the entire thing you designed for them.

To show examples:

A failed melee design: irelia. A somewhat passable one: Riven, even tho they could have done a lot better here (scrap animation cancelling, make E shield directional, make Ult make the big sword actually feel like a big sword -> less mobility, longer animations, but more damage).

And at the same tiem Tryndamere is like the most generic character ever. His theme is not only similiar to that of Olaf, it's the same fucking thing with some details changed in the backstory... and Olaf needs a slight rework too...

The entire bruiser class will take some serious effort to rework...

SociopathFriend1 votes

Olaf and Tryn are both vikings but they do serve very different fantasies.

Tryn is to be king- he may enjoy a battle and is willing to fight even beyond was a normal man should be capable of- but ultimately he's there to win and walk away because he has a future. Olaf is the opposite in a way- while he also enjoys battle he isn't trying to live or walk away- he's there to fight or die because it's his destiny.

Tryn has purpose, Olaf does not. This is reflected in the game as well- Tryn survives death through sheer willpower while Olaf forsakes all defense and charges at his enemy to try and kill them before they kill him.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

And in the end that boils down to "very angry north-warrior who doesn't die because he's so mad".

And with that it makes no difference if the death-defying madness is caused by instinct or willpower, effectively it's the same thing. There might be tiny variances in their lore, but when it comes down to the theme of their gameplay it's the same.

CerealBoxOfDoom10 votes

kayle is extremely low priority. Wouldn't wait on that rework if I were you

SaltyToplaneGoat15 votes

Actually as one of the oldest champions in the game she should be high priority. She's pretty much on the same level as Warwick here...

CerealBoxOfDoom28 votes

age is irrelevant, you either fit into this game or you don't and kayle has not been causing huge issues nor has she been particularly toxic.

Kayle's age means nothing, you can't really compare her to warwick who is everything riot has been trying to get away from.

underscores2224 votes

Age does have a factor - older champs tend to look out of place in the new SR. She does look better than most because she got a mini-update some years ago, but her lore failings and kit issues would put her on the awareness list.

I would say there are at least 5 champs that Riot and players want updated more than Kayle, though, so she might not make it for a few years.

PermabannedGaren22 votes

{quoted}

age is irrelevant, you either fit into this game or you don't and kayle has not been causing huge issues nor has she been particularly toxic.

Kayle's age means nothing, you can't really compare her to warwick who is everything riot has been trying to get away from.

Kayle would be a much bigger issue if she wasn't so incredibly boring to play as.

She auto-counters almost every melee top laner as a lane bully, is able to duel most of them throughout the game, is huge in team fights due to her AOE DPS and strong utility, and has little to no counterplay.

To put it into perspective, this is a champion who can bully lane bullies and late game can duel Vayne (apparently. Imaqtpie said she could and he'd know better than me), while putting out near-ADC level DPS and having enough utility to save her carry from dying.

Kayle's design is incredibly toxic and awful.

In fact, how is she that different than Warwick? Both are auto attack-based champions who have very few mechanics enemies can play around. They just stat-check you to death if they are good.

Aptest1 votes

Kayle does not "stat-check" you: she presses R to win.

educate yourself.

But on another note: Kayle is an ADC that hard-counteres assassins.

That is a niche that has place in the game.

Xonra10 votes

No, she presses R not to lose, not to win.

She builds attack speed, pops her range extender essentially, and bitch slaps you to death. She doesn't need her other abilites in the fight except maybe the slow if you are running, or she is kiting (which she doesn't usually need to do).

9 out of 10 times Kayle doesn't use her ult on herself.

Also, no one plays her adc. She also isn't an "adc" as she builds ap, so you are double wrong.

she is almost always top counter, jungle in few situations, or mid again to counter.

xNykyrian 1 votes

I've played her adc a few times. Not really meta or exceptional but not as bad as you'd think.

Xonra1 votes

Not really a good idea though. She could be easily easily punished as she has plenty of downtime without her range auto attack up. Very easily punished by most of the adcs if they are doing it right, or she is going to get pushed in and miss a lot of cs.

xNykyrian 1 votes

Yeah its a real niche thing and more for the fun. You need good cc. It's basically you punish them more than they can you when ur range is up. very few adc's can match her when she's attacking but because of how easily punished she can be as u say it's why its not really done

LichKing2341 votes

i will be honest Xonra item 3071 . item 3091 is the funniest thing i seen on kayle well mostly the black cleaver as her bitch slap does also do both ad and ap dmg she mostly build ap for her other abilities if anything she was kind of ment to be some sort of hybrid champ like Evelynn , Jax eve is a hybrid champ ad ratios on her E and Q and her ad ratios are better on Q and her E

but kayle can go ad and do pretty well.

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

{quoted}

In fact, how is she that different than Warwick?

... oh come on lol!

Suppression, kayle doesn't even have hard cc while ww can heal himself with his cc that you can't evade no matter what you build outside maybe BV which he can pop with Q ball of stats far more extreme sustain ww has more steroids and gives more steroids to allies

By the way kayle can't detect your position just because your hp is low.

Abyssphere5 votes

Please don't tell me you seriously think he was saying the things their abilities do are similar. You really, really think "Kayle can't see low health enemies" is new information to him?

Lady Hammerlock2 votes

{quoted}

age is irrelevant, you either fit into this game or you don't and kayle has not been causing huge issues nor has she been particularly toxic.

Kayle's age means nothing, you can't really compare her to warwick who is everything riot has been trying to get away from.

I beg to differ Remember the era of Q slap Kayle? the one that could 2 shot you She might not be causing problems for other champs or any given lane, but when you think about it her very existence doesn't give room for on hits to be very strong same goes for Mr. Kog'Maw

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

Q slapping has nothing to do with age

Its either too much or it isnt

Elikain2 votes

Riot has said that Kayle and Morgana would be good for a duo VGU at some point. Nothing has been confirmed, just some ideas were being thrown around. But both are low priority at the time and there are other champions in dire need of them.

And i understand that completely. It simply means that we'd have to wait for their turn.

As for Morgana being a walking, legless tent, that's not entirely true. She has legs on her Default, Blade Mistress, Exiled, Sinful Succulence skins but the framework of her dress is akin to an open umbrella. It's rigid and restrictive. I'm a Morgana main so i've done my research.

Keìron1 votes

Is that irony? :^)

Meep Man10 votes

I like how people need a champion to be thrown at their faces to realize that they need a rework very badly. Can you imagine if Riot instead gave out Demolisher Nunu?

Tobias Brackner6 votes

I don't think she needs a rework as badly as other champions.

Her playstyle is a little obtuse but it does come together and her kit is overall strong and can fill multiple roles.

I do think she's due for a rework so she can be a little more cohesive but I've seen Kayle do some awesome things and have done some awesome things with her.

It Hertz When IP5 votes

I'm trying to think of a role she can't do.

Jungle? Self-sustain, AoE AA steroid. Ult makes rescue ganks a thing. Top? Build tanky while STILL outranging the other laner. Armor shred and hybrid damage to make counterbuilding retardedly hard. Ult makes ganks problematic. Mid? Building AP buffs her AAs for practically free trading, with Q+Ult to facilitate tower dives for her or her jungler. Support? Best support ult in the game. Heals and pokes if you have mana regen runes. ADC? most difficult here due to early-game E downtime limiting CS, would require a support with lots of poke and/or hard CC, maybe an off-meta like Vel or Brand.

Anonagon5 votes

Completely agreed.

Kayle's kit is a jumbled mess. Her W and Ult scream "Support!", her passive and E scream "On-hit Cheese Cancer!", and her visuals and theme scream "Holy Warrior!" On top of that, her lore is... does she even have lore anymore? I'm not sure whats been retconned and what hasn't. Are she and Morgana still from another dimension? Is that still a thing? Why was that ever a thing? Her visuals and VO aren't terrible but the sheer lack of lines and animations that she has is really started to make her feel aged.

They could make Kayle something great. Someone in here mentioned an old Riot idea about turning her into a "carry support". Do that! That's a great idea. Something like Abaddon from DOTA2, where the same abilities that let him function as an effective semi-carry also can be used to support allies.

Sailor Galaxia4 votes

"Yeah I actually think it would be really cool to do a duel update to Morgana & Kayle one day. Give Kayle a full VGU and then Morgana a matching VU and maybe small gameplay update (if that's even needed.) I think it would be impossible to update one without the other. They could also have a bunch of intertwining VO interactions. Reav3 - about a month ago"

Reav3 (Rioter) mentioned it recently in the Ask Riot: Chromas and ChampUp post. I think that would be so f'ing awesome. They could do a special event sort of like the bilgewater one they had or something.

Autrah Fang4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZnFG2ZyE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-09-13T20:40:27.445+0000)

She has wings but doesn't use them

i'm sorry what? do you want her to make a tornado with them or something (which i'll admit would be pretty BA, but that's beside the point)? at least she uses them to fly, like what wings are literally designed to do. she uses them more than Morgana does, who decides to just walk everywhere. they can't do much else with her wings without stepping on other champions' abilities (Aurelion Sol E, Pantheon R, etc)

that said, that's pretty much the only thing i see wrong with your post. i can't help but agree with everything else.

Xonra6 votes

I don't think Morgs actually work anymore if I remember correctly. She is the equivalent of fallen angel in the biblical sense, except her wings are still there at least aesthetically. I think she only has them anymore to show "She was an angel and look Kayle has wings too. See? Sisters"

Autrah Fang2 votes

{quoted}

I don't think Morgs actually work anymore if I remember correctly.

but the season one league cinematic though D: they clearly show her flying. although, the cinematics are not in any way a display of gameplay or lore, so you never know. maybe she really can't fly? however, her lore doesn't say anything about her wings not working. then again, she along with Kayle technically don't even have lore anymore... perhaps their eventual lore updates will shed some light on the subject?

if there was a Riot comment on whether or not her wings are functional please inform me :) i personally haven't seen them make any comments on the matter, but perhaps you have?

General Anubis4 votes

ITT: A whole bunch of people who don't play Kayle voicing their opinions on why they hate her and have no idea how to deal with playing against her.

Solari Fortune3 votes

They have talked about she will eventually get work done, but others have higher priority Plus they would like to combo her rework with her Sister Morg for a dual update

Xonra2 votes

That would be a bummer because As much as Kayle could use some love, Morg doesn't need it at all gameplay wise. Makes me nervous they would break Morg just to fix Kayle.

Anotherherolost3 votes

Mom said Kayle is good for you.

The Loveless1 votes

She's a pretty boring red Mage type. She would make more sense as a definitive on-hit champion if, let's say, her W also increased the target's attack speed.

Her builds always feel weird because they want you to build attack speed, but that speed is only good when E is off cooldown. At least Teemo's poison applies passively.

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