Why is Shaco a bruiser

Big Lincoln·May 7, 2017·33 votes·2,728 views

what better way to know that your assassin rework is shit than when it makes them stop being assassins?

revert pls

41 Comments

Comrade NapoleonMay 7, 201713 votes

It really saddens me that i could kill a squshi with this build item 3748 item 3078 item 3009 item 1413 bot not with this item 3087 item 3031 item 1412

This itemization removes all the skill and risk in playing shaco as it does not reward him for playing glass canon. it is better building bruiser and walking around in team fight with your clone going beast mode procing item 3053 than building assassin and calculating your moves.

Tobias BracknerMay 7, 20172 votes

Homie, if that second build can't kill a squishy then you are fucking up hardcore.

shadew69May 7, 20175 votes

It is that build does no damage https://youtu.be/nopHWUZTT3k

Tobias BracknerMay 8, 20172 votes

links 12 minute video yeah dude, somewhere in that video is evidence that backs up my claim

Comrade NapoleonMay 8, 20171 votes

regardless of my "skill" iv tested both builds on a ~level 10 lux where she doesn't do anything but run alil then try to flash over a wall. with a full combo the bruiser build poped her, with the crit one it didnt. Im not basing my assumptions on a single case. throughout the game i felt my damage is very lacking although i was ahead.

Tobias BracknerMay 8, 20171 votes

Homie, do dmg math. Literal numbers should come out and say the Assassin build does more dmg.

That makes me wonder if instead what is happening is that you aren't dodging skillshots and get popped by Lux in both builds, it's just one lets you survive the assault.

AkoyPinoyMay 11, 20172 votes

Shaco: level 15 (normal 3 item level) Base AD: 104 Base HP: 1696

5 points Q 3 points W 5 points E 2 points R

Target: Level 15 Lucian with at least a Black Cleaver (Might have ninja tabis but defensive stats are irrelevant as neither build has penetration or contain an item amplifying magic damage) HP: 2016

Bruiser build (Trinity, Titanic, Deadman's) AD: 164 HP: 2821

Combo: Q in backstab: (164)(1.3) + 5 + (.01)(2821) + 100 (Assuming Deadman's is at 100 stacks)= 346.41 Titanic aa reset: 164 + 40 + (2821)(.1) + 5 + (.01)(2821) = 519.31 E: 125 + (.75)(164) + (346.1 + 519.31)(.08) = 317.2328 TLD: (15)(10) + (.3)(164) = 199.2 AA: 164 + 5 + (.01)(2821) = 197.21

Total : 1579.3628

Important: I did not factor in the Sheen damage (which obviously would make bruiser do even more damage) as I do not know the interaction between Sheen and Shaco's passive

AD Crit Assassin Build (Warrior, Statikk Shiv, Infinity Edge) AD: 234 HP: 1696

Q in backstab : (234 + 137) (1.8) = 667.8 E: (667.8)(.08) + 125 + (.75) (234) = 353.924 AA: 234 TLD: (15)(.1) + (.3) (234) = 220.2

Total : 1475.924

Conclusion: For a trade off of 1125 HP, 60 armor, 5% attack speed, 20% cdr, Sheen proc, Phage on-hit movement speed, Deadman's slow and movement speed, and superior wave clear, you lose 103 damage. What a great deal !

Note: Bruiser build costs about 1500 gold more. However, regardless of what is built, this 1500 gold will do little to change the numbers above and tiamat from titanic allows much better clear speeds in the jungle as well as wave clear.

TL;DR: Bruiser does more damage.

Tobias BracknerMay 12, 20171 votes

Thanks dude!

Your math on the Q is confusing me. It looks like you give it an 80% increase in dmg but not a 180% increase in dmg.

However looking at the numbers it looks like a lot of damage comes from the AA reset. So if the Crit build decided to go a little more raw dmg by swapping Statikk Shiv for Ravenous Hydra then it should come out w/ way more dmg, yah?

It would add 150 dmg through just AA and 50-60 dmg on his E.

Also shout-outs for the Infinity Edge giving a chance to crit on each of those AA.

AkoyPinoyMay 13, 20171 votes

The main reason people buy titanic over ravenous (even in assassin builds) is because titanic's active provides a smoother and faster auto attack cancel as well as the added damage of 10% of your max health plus 40 base (titanic is 100% ad plus that scaling while ravenous is only 60-100% ad). This gives it a larger amount of burst within a small window. However, the more aa's you get, ravenous will have more damage in the long run (as you mentioned). But as an assassin, you don't want a slow death for your target from many aa's, you need it to be quick so they can't react quickly enough (xayah r, lucian e, support shields/heals, etc.).

Also, with q, I gave it a 1.8 increase due to backstab giving 1.3 (which goes up to 1.8 with Infinity). 234 is from the base ad and 137 is from statikk, 180% = 1.8. and 80% = .8.

And you're right, IE can crit in aa's but it's inconsistent. As a kamikaze assassin, you don't want unpredictability, you need to get the kill or else you're useless because you'll just get popped out of stealth. Relying on chance (as opposed to the guaranteed crit from backstab) is not a good idea.

Note: Titanic active counts as one of the 3 procs of TLD, ravenous does not. In most situations, you won't get a 3rd aa (in bruiser build's case after using E) or a 2nd (from assassin build after using E) so bruiser gets to proc TLD while assassin does not.

Tobias BracknerMay 13, 20171 votes

Titanic has 0 AD scaling, where are you getting this 100% ad from?

1.8 = 80% increase. If you want to give something a 180% increase (since a 100% increase is double damage) then you would do 2.8. Unless there is something about League phrasing / code that I don't understand.

AkoyPinoyMay 13, 20171 votes

The scaling is from the auto attack itself while ravenous only does aoe that scales from 60%-100% depending on distance from the target.

It's basic math... Converting from a percentage to a decimal you divide by 100 or move the decimal 2 digits to the left. By multiplying with 2.8 you're actually doing a 280% increase. And 100% isn't double damage. That would imply 0% is the original which doesn't make much sense since 0% is well... 0. Multiplying by 0 will just cause the numerical result to be nothing while multiplying by 1 (which is 100%) will result in the same thing. 100% ≠ double damage. 100% = 1 (which is the original value)

https://www.google.com/search?q=180%25+to+decimal&oq=180%25+to+decimal&aqs=chrome..69i57.7190j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?q=10+times+100%25&oq=10+times+100%25&aqs=chrome..69i57.1978j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Tobias BracknerMay 14, 20171 votes

When you multiply a number by 1, then you don't increase it. It is a 0% increase.

For example: If something deals 20 dmg base, but you activate something that gives it double damage (a 100% increase in dmg) then you multiply it by 2.

AkoyPinoyMay 14, 20172 votes

Yes, but it doesn't change the fact that to double something, you take 200% of it. In other words, increase it by 100%. 200% still equals 2. A 100% increase also equals 2. So multiplying by 1.8 is an 80% increase.

I was never giving it a 180% increase. Backstab gives 30% increase (aka 1.3) and infinity makes that an 80% increase (aka 1.8). I was giving it an 80% increase.

I think I messed up my wording by using yours (% increase) rather than saying the decimal itself. By mentioning an increase, the base would b 0% but if I was simply multiplying, the base is 100%.

Anyway, this was so pointless...

Tobias BracknerMay 15, 20171 votes

If something is pointless then don't talk about it.

Don't talk about something and then call it pointless after the fact.

In all it looks like the problem with the non-Bruiser build is that Statik should be Ravenous. But hey, all this is pointless so go ahead and mope away somewhere else.

Asayake 5150glowMay 7, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Comrade Napoleon,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZmnOikHF,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-05-07T05:35:06.675+0000)

It really saddens me that i could kill a squshi with this build bot not with this

This itemization removes all the skill and risk in playing shaco as it does not reward him for playing glass canon. it is better building bruiser and walking around in team fight with your clone going beast mode procing than building assassin and calculating your moves.

That's Titanic doing too much damage.

Autoattack reset+200~300 bonus damage is incredibly strong, better than Rav in burst unless you have 666% AD scales.

No I'm not kidding.

DarkHeadgearMay 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Comrade Napoleon,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZmnOikHF,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-05-07T05:35:06.675+0000)

It really saddens me that i could kill a squshi with this build bot not with this

This itemization removes all the skill and risk in playing shaco as it does not reward him for playing glass canon. it is better building bruiser and walking around in team fight with your clone going beast mode procing than building assassin and calculating your moves.

Nobody should be rewarded for playing glass cannon save for specific situations. It's reckless. Bruisers duel and teamfight, glass cannons 1-shot and die. Titanic AA reset along with triforce AA empower gives you more burst, and cinderhulk lets you live to tell the tale. Skirmisher's sabre is like half of an ignite. The top build is more suited to one-shotting than statik shiv. In fact, you shouldn't build statik shiv on 1-shot shaco. You always rush tiamat and then to skirmisher's red, into ravenous hydra, into your desired role in the game. If it's to 1-shot, try duskblade of drakthaar, or Death's dance.

Furthermore, playing aggressive early and not getting fed off of it makes any build bad whereas trying to play tank shaco may encourage you to play safe, clear the jungle better, and have an appearance of feeling stronger.

Comrade NapoleonMay 8, 20172 votes

I believe they should, It should be a high risk high reward. With a glass canon build you cant duel, you cant go near a team fight, you actually have to use your brain and dodge incoming damage with q or ult, even blocking skillshots with a box. these are all downsides and high skill demands that should be rewarded with the capability for doing high burst damage. and btw the lethality build is a little bit better than the crit one, but its still sucks.

AmazoXMay 7, 20179 votes

Rengar as well.

fuffychanMay 7, 20174 votes

I keep upvoting your posts

why are you making so much sense?

Big LincolnMay 7, 20175 votes

im a pretty smart guy when im not shittyposting

AmazoXMay 7, 20172 votes

Out of curiosity, When is your birthday Big Lincoln?

Big LincolnMay 7, 20172 votes

it's in march, why?

AmazoXMay 7, 20172 votes

date?

Big LincolnMay 7, 20171 votes

AmazoXMay 7, 20171 votes

noice, Happy Belate Birthday!

DarkHeadgearMay 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I keep upvoting your posts

why are you making so much sense?

Yes, what a thoroughly thought through argument.

LimrickMay 7, 20174 votes

Old Shaco was even worse to play against, just dumpster him for now and move him to higher priority for VGU.

Rhaegar1May 7, 20173 votes

Plus one. I am sick of one build being around, people are sick of unkillable cancer. When will Riot realize that his state now does not make anyone happy, even mains?

Also if someone thinks nerfs were good, look at this: https://www.reddit.com/r/shacomains/comments/6988pk/bruiser_shaco_take_skill_hehe_xd/

DarkHeadgearMay 7, 20172 votes

Bruiser Shaco is the most efficient Shaco build. He's not even THAT good. It's the same way lee is very strong early and builds bruiser mid-late game to keep up with relevance. Shaco isn't even as useful as lee late game. Go complain about Lee Sin's incredible usefulness for the past 3 seasons rather than Shaco who has been bad for most of the seasons besides before his last nerf.

Big LincolnMay 7, 20174 votes

I'm saying it as a Shaco player

bruiser build being the only build is fuckin stupid

DarkHeadgearMay 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZmnOikHF,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-05-07T13:24:51.414+0000)

I'm saying it as a Shaco player

bruiser build being the only build is fuckin stupid

I have 260k Champion points on shaco, I mained him season 5 6 and 7 going on and off. Yes, he does damage at full bruiser build. So does every jungler in the game. Nobody "doesn't do damage" at full build. Triforce isn't even a tank item, it barely gives you any survivability. Any jungler can build bruiser and do damage, that's the nature of a bruiser. If he didn't do damage he would be a straight tank.

If you have a teamfight comp, and your ADC knows how to position well, gap close away from shaco, or have a support that uses sweeping lens to detect shaco then shaco is useless. Rengar is built as a bruiser late game too. Is that op? Hecarim is built bruiser, he can nearly one shot a carry after he gets his first 2 items. Is that op? It's just the way the champion functions in relation to other champions, and it's not broken because there is counter play.

It's like saying how Darius is too strong versus many laners, he's so OP. Of course he is, that's the nature of Darius and there is counter play. Shaco can be countered very easily. If he doesn't snowball the early game, shaco is completely useless. When the games turn into ARAM, shaco can't teamfight well unless the enemies get confused by shaco dropping himself and an ult onto the carry. That's just bad teamplay against shaco if they fail a fight like that. Yes, he does damage, but a GA stops assassination and positioning, escapes, sweepers, and shaco focus stops shaco from being useful.

Quantum LotusMay 7, 20171 votes

Because control wards made his invisibility op causing him to be nerfed to the point of only being useful if he builds bruiser. If he is able to do damage like an assassin should, than he is op because of the control wards not showing him anymore.

If we revert control wards to vision wards, we can have old shaco back somewhat.

MannnyMay 7, 20171 votes

Because now instead of building crit he can just backstab for a crit. He no longer needs to build it in order to get it. He then suffices for his other shortcomings like lack of defense and builds tanky.

BatchBustsMetaMay 7, 20171 votes

what... his q used to be garanteed crit. It does like... no damage now, until mid to late game with scaling. backstab isnt a crit either. its an empowered auto..