All it does is make champions that are supposed to have a weak early game have a means to bypass it completely. Lifesteal is already annoying to play against and this just makes it even more annoying. It should just be reworked entirely so it no longer provides sustain. I'm honestly surprised Riot went into Season 7 without doing major work on it because of how problematic it has been since the beginning.
Spice POWAH10 votesDo you have any idea of what it should be changed to?
Edit: Why did this even get downvoted? it was an actual question.
Irelia Bot17 votesA turret defense mastery.
Something that makes you do 20% more damage to minions and champs who are within the turrets firing range.
That will teach them to 4 man turret dive.
TeCoolMage15 votesHonestly that would be better in cunning
aspects13 votesswitch it with thunderlords
AirKingNeo9 votesSounds like a bad keystone because it REQUIRES a turret to and be near it.
Irelia Bot1 votesConsidering that Riot does not seem to be interested in reverting first turret gold and bot turret being weaker it would be used.
AirKingNeo2 votesDoesn't matter, it would still be terrible.
Aazzlano4 voteslmfao 20% extra damage to champions near your turrets, terrible?
AirKingNeo5 votesTerrible design is what I mean.
chipndip11 votesYes, because everyone would go back to Fervor.
Irelia Bot1 votesyou spelled thunderlords wrong.
chipndip11 votesEh, for casters, you right.
Mecha Incognito3 votesIf it was made to also have the effect near dead turrets, it could actually be quite good, like the point runner passive on zz'rot
AirKingNeo5 votesthen it would be horrifically broken
Mecha Incognito1 votesI was going to ask why, until I just noticed the original suggestion was to deal extra damage to champions too. I figured it was just to clear minions so diving was harder to pull off.
Guyy Fieri3 votes[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zi3JGX8b,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-01-02T07:29:51.830+0000)
A turret defense mastery.
Something that makes you do 20% more damage to minions and champs who are within the turrets firing range.
That will teach them to 4 man turret dive.
That could make farming under tower a lot more difficult actually.
Nuparu1 votes20% would make you able to oneshot all the casters/melees i'm pretty sure.
Guyy Fieri2 votes20% would make you able to oneshot all the casters/melees i'm pretty sure.
If you think about the math of caster creeps, it takes auto-tower shot-auto to kill them. If you get 20% extra damage, it wouldn't do enough damage to one shot it after the tower shot (as two autos doesn't equal one auto at 120% damage). So you would still have to auto-tower shot-auto and then you run the risk of minion aggro taking the minion with a stray minion auto
ZephyrDrake5 votesit's supposed to be the sustain mastery, what would you give it that the other two keystones in the tree don't give?
Spice POWAH1 votesI made a post to make it similar to old furor(the boot enchantment).
Akali is SO HOT11 votesYeah the problem is having a sustain mastery at all will always be problematic in some way unless it's heal is conditional and/or has a decent cooldown. I don't know what it should be changed to, but it should definitely be moved away from sustain because it's not fun having weak early game champions being given a ticket to mid/late game.
Maybe move it towards movement speed or extra AD or AP or something. Sustain is just never going to work tbh.
ZephyrDrake3 votes[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zi3JGX8b,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-01-02T07:12:46.025+0000)
Yeah the problem is having a sustain mastery at all will always be problematic in some way unless it's heal is conditional and/or has a decent cooldown. I don't know what it should be changed to, but it should definitely be moved away from sustain because it's not fun having weak early game champions being given a ticket to mid/late game.
Maybe move it towards movement speed or extra AD or AP or something. Sustain is just never going to work tbh.
yes it will, it was working just fine until Riot decided that fervor should be a complete garbage mastery. So what was left was something only good on poke champions and the sustain mastery. You don't even get the full effect of the mastery unless you are at really low values. Also weak early game champions? other than Vayne please tell me what other "weak" early game champions actually use this and is getting a free ticket to mid/late game? most champions that are using this are those who have a relatively safe early game. Early game bullies are worthless right now and most late game scaling champs are not worth the risk in most situations so please tell me what weak early game champions you are talking about
NightmareAmazoX1 votesWarlords is only taken if you know you are going to have short trades and are going to power farm early game.
Mecha Incognito2 votesIt could totally work to have a sustain keystone, but it definitely needs more conditions to be strong and fair. I figured something like the passive on maw (lifeline?) where you get sustain for staying in a fight is much more appropriate than just having it always.
SpecterVonBaren2 votesCould just have it give extremely low values of lifesteal until you're low on health. Basically make it so it does almost nothing unless you're really low on health so it's only useable in an all in and if you manage to survive one but not good for getting through poke.
Awesomedude88882 votesDoesn't Warlords scale with missing HP already?
SpecterVonBaren1 votesYes, but currently it starts working as soon as you lose any health, I'm saying make it so you need to be at like, 50% of your max health before it kicks in and only once you hit something like 15% of your max health will it gain full effect so it's much worse at sustaining from trades and poke and more focused on surviving all ins.
Captain Aishi1 voteshow about a more 'draintank' feel to the sustain mastery, where your 3rd basic attack on an enemy champion heals you for the damage it dealt, instead of something that keeps you full hp all the time for farming minions
LankPants5 votesIt should be something usable by both AP and AD champions. I'm frankly sick of not having choice in Keystones at all on AP mages. If you don't have DoT you go Thunderlords, if you do you can go TL or Deathfire Touch.
Reworking Warlord's into something more neutral and possibly changing Stormrader's into something not terrible would offer a lot more actual choice.
Automated Riven13 votesIn what universe in stormraiders terrible.
LankPants2 votesIn a universe where it competes with Thunderlords, a mastery which ends up being better 99% of the time.
Ralanr3 votesThat's only because people value damage over utility.
AirKingNeo2 votesand not every champion has the base damages to proc it. Look at Ekko, he'd have to get off a perfect combo lv2-3 to proc it. Q, E, AA, Q backlash. Really hard when you don't have a slow.
NightmareAmazoX1 votesActually Ekko only has to E & Q to trigger TLD for some reason.
AirKingNeo1 votesI was talking about stormraiders.
Gamukko Perkele1 votesEkko doesn't even need a stormraiders, lol. His passive is a stormraider already
IcyPepper1 votesI think E and the autoattack count as two strikes for thunderlords, I guess?
Empowered autoattacks are weird and inconsistent for some reason.
DJMason881 votesHey, i accidentally played stormraiders Ahri and it worked pretty well.
Akali is SO HOT1 votesI took it in all my Talon and Akali games before the rework. I don't play Talon much anymore so I can't say if it's still good on him and Akali's damage being gutted now means that Thunderlord's is a must have on her if you want to be useful at all.
Spice POWAH2 votesI saw one person playing jungle akali with windspeaker's blessing. It worked better than you might think, the sustain was crazy.
forresto3 votesto be clear: a lot of the champions youre talking about are ranged. that means against minions, they only get 25% of the actual value. in other words, they get 0-5%, averaging out at less than a dorans blade of sustain. on the other hand, when it comes to fights, it does exactly what it's supposed to do and is probably just as balanced as anything else in the tree. The only change I would make is that ranged champs probably shouldn't get the full value against enemy champs, but it's probly balanced as is. There are only rare edge cases like nasus or aatrox who can really abuse warlords much(and aatrox really needs the help anyway)
GrReaper962 votesThe only problem i have is that is greatly encourages ADCs to buy lifesteal items really late, allowing them to finish all their crit items first
PaffWasTaken1 votessooooo you complain about adcs being strong... in S7? Are we playing the same game?
Ralanr2 votesDumb idea: what if it was pushed towards crit again, but instead of sustain it converted some %of crit into AD or vice versa?
Probably really dumb considering how this would impact Yasuo and Tryndamere. That and I feel this could be pushed to be more hybrid or even AP focused due to the lack of variety that AP champions have in keystones (their only decent options are TLD and Stormraiders, or DFT if they can utilize it well). Maybe a return of Arcane Blade?
AirKingNeo1 votesHonestly they should replace DFT. Only DoT champions and Jhin take it.
SpongebobIsLife5 votesnot true, poke mages take it as well. Like ziggs, xerath, and zyra who isnt either of the two. DFT is in a good spot.
Mecha Incognito2 votesI always felt that it should have been somewhat conditional, like activates after going down to a certain health %. Example:
Gain 10-20% lifesteal (based on missing health) for X seconds when below X% health (X second cooldown). Auto attacks refresh the duration.
I always figured this mastery should have been designed for in fight sustain, rewarding you for pushing through the damage received and playing out the fight. Instead, as it is without any real conditions, it's used for the exact opposite effect, just to run off, heal back and up and then rejoin the fight.
PaffWasTaken1 votesThat would be absolutely USELESS in the current meta, but couldve been decent one or two years ago. If you need to be Under a certain portion of health and have the buff for a limited time, it would be useless in the current meta who consist into Killing someone the fastest way possible in only 1 or 2 combos. The way the buff would work if it would be like you said, it would be usefull for prolounged fights that dosen't end in 2 seconds, so mostly focused for full tanks but useless for squishies actually using it, so that means: Tanks getting even more strong, and ADC's getting even easier to kill WORST THING THAT COULD EVER HAPPEN AT THE MOMENT [slayer-jinx-unamused]
Mecha Incognito1 votesIt's only that bad to you because you've decided for whatever reason that the duration should only be 2 seconds. Initially I was thinking more along the lines of 5 seconds. Now, if you're unable to auto attack anyone for more than 5 seconds, I think you have more problems at hand that no mastery will help with.
sounds familiar......