And people try to claim Riot doesn't show any bias towards marksmen.
Cait (ranged) gets bonus damage, Shaco (melee) gets penalized crit that gimps actual crit damage. Needless to say Cait's has better base damage and better scaling.
Cait's conditions are far easier to meet, Shaco's can only be executed within a small window, and is near-impossible to execute on outside of that.
Ulquiorra99521 votesOne of those two abilities requires you to get behind someone in melee range, often blowing your only escape to do so. The other is completely risk-free with 650 range. Obviously the one with more risk and counterplay gets to scale much better.
WoonStruck5 votesBut it doesn't.
Cait's safe 650+ range headshot crits scale far, far better.
Riot honestly doesn't know balance. Cait is overloaded. She should have the same penalties as Shaco, which is to say -50% crit damage on headshots.
Ulquiorra99515 votesThat was sarcasm. Best Shaco can hope to achieve is 335% AD with an IE-empowered crit + E, while Cait gets 250% AD + 100% of her crit chance, increased to 300% + 125% of her crit chance with IE; meaning that with her first two items, IE and Hurricane she crits for 362.5% AD - and the amount only goes up if she obtains another crit chance item. And Riot wonders why AP Shaco has become a dominant build over AD.
It Hertz When IP2 votesWhile I do agree that Shaco's underpowered, I don't think "overloaded" is the word you're looking for.
EDIT: Gotta love the low levels of reading comprehension around here. Y'all are thinking of "overpowered", which is when a champion is too strong, not "overloaded", which is when a champion's kit contains way too many features. Cait may be "overpowered", she is definitely not "overloaded".
WoonStruck4 votesCait IS overloaded.
Due to the Runaan's changes and the way crit (overloaded in itself atm), lifesteal (overloaded in itself atm), warlord's (overloaded in itself atm), her passive (overloaded in itself atm), and runaan's (overloaded in itself atm) interact by multiplying each other, she is definitely overloaded atm. And on top of that she has near-instant trap-lines and her E auto-headshot that gives her an obnoxious 1-shot combo, as well as having a huge advantage on blue side due to tower visual cheesing with traps.
Dominick Destine2 votesCait IS overloaded.
Her only really good skill are the traps ... and her stats are atrocious (Worst of all ADC) except for her range.
WoonStruck2 votesHer E is pretty damn good self-peel+burst; combos extremely well with Q or W for burst combos. R is really good poke/situational pressure.
Only her Q is really lackluster, but its great for waveclear before you finish Runaan's.
Tell me how her base stats factor into anything? Its obviously not holding her back atm.
Rivuo2 votesHer E is pretty damn good self-peel+burst; combos extremely well with Q or W for burst combos. R is really good poke/situational pressure.
Only her Q is really lackluster, but its great for waveclear before you finish Runaan's.
Tell me how her base stats factor into anything? Its obviously not holding her back atm.
Cait has 2 skills........ They are hella good but saying shes overloaded..?
It Hertz When IP1 votesThey're confusing overloaded and overpowered, ignore the downvotes.
Spice POWAH2 votes^ Cait's problem with the community is her traps, according to literally everyone that lanes against her. All Riot needs to do is make her traps despawn under enemy turrets faster, maybe reduce damage on Headshot+Crit a tiny bit. Then we'll see how she does.
Rozzeta5 votesBecause Caitlyn was soft reworked by CertainlyT.
Oglaf5 votesRiot is heavily biased towards any Champion classified as Marksman (i.e "ADC").
Because they are supposed to "carry the game" they are allowed to get away with shit no other role/class would've been allowed to.
Case-in-point: this thread.
Sraeg20132 votesCase-in-point: Vayne's Tumble crits.
"Yo, guys. We've heard Vayne's Q rolls its own chance for a crit, so we made it consistent with all other empowered attacks." ~ Rito
Too bad they forgot to mention Vayne's Q crits was like a month-old glitch and lied about empowered attacks either fully critting or not critting at all.
Champion Skin1 votesJust imagine if Draven Q or Nasus Q could also crit like Vayne Q does....
Sraeg20131 votesWell, for what it's worth Draven could finally have his niche back.
Champion Skin1 votesYeah.... it was kind of silly with Vayne Q adding 70% AD which could go up to 175% AD with IE crit (goes down to 2 seconds cooldown)
Compared with Draven Q adding 85% AD but isn't increased if the auto attack crits (though it can apply to most auto attacks if he juggles enough axes)
Now with the Vayne nerf it is at least only 50% AD and 125% AD with IE crit
Sraeg20131 votesSpeak about damage creep when Riot pulls a 105% AD ratio increase on a champion which had no problems fighting most other champions.
Bradley Dragon4 votesthey JUST changed his crit to use normal crit instead of his weaker one if he would do a normal crit when executing a backstab.
WoonStruck16 votesNormal crit. As in it doesn't stack. Shaco basically loses his passive when he buys crit.
Meanwhile cait is critting with headshot+warlord's healing 1/2 her HP with a single auto attack late game and dealing far more damage than Shaco could ever, even though his conditions are harder, including being melee.
Ulquiorra99511 votesAnd sadly a single Headshot crit from cait has better AD scaling than Shaco's entire kit. I know snipers are assassins' weapons of choice, but that does not mean someone with 650 range should be better at assassinating targets than champions actually designed to do so.
ZT Xperimentor2 votesHence the favoritism he refereed to initially.
Bradley Dragon3 votesshaco also has stealth... and his q can crit.
WoonStruck7 votesCait has range. Traditionally a far stronger tool... and her W and E give her an automatic 1k range crit that multiplies with regular crit damage if they land.
ScruffyScruffz3 votesBecause shaco doesnt need buffs.
WoonStruck2 votesAD Shaco does need buffs. AP does not; its nerfs are quite justified.
Besides, its not an argument about Shaco being too weak. Its an argument about Cait being too strong.
Twitch Chat3 votesNew q and backstab are extremely poorly designed from an AD shaco perspective but comparing 2 abilities like headshot and backstab in a vacuum is a pointless waste of time.
invisiblecat13 votesI hate it when a caitlyn crits AND headshots for 1500 damage I wish they nerfed that, but bringing shaco up to her level is not how they should be fixed Shaco should be rewarded with a nice amount of burst damage for the skill he put into the play to get behind them without being seen Caitlyn shouldn't just get headshots with crits by chance even few basic attacks!!!
Champion Skin1 votesCait can get some of the biggest crits in the game (going up to 495% AD) though that requires IE and 100% crit and the enemy stepping into a trap
(175% AD Headshot bonus damage with IE and 100% crit + 70% AD as bonus damage from the trap + 250% AD from auto attack with IE crit)
PermabannedGaren3 votesAnd people try to claim Riot doesn't show any bias towards marksmen.
Cait (ranged) gets bonus damage, Shaco (melee) gets penalized crit that gimps actual crit damage. Needless to say Cait's has better base damage and better scaling.
Cait's conditions are far easier to meet, Shaco's can only be executed within a small window, and is near-impossible to execute on outside of that.
Yeah I'm with you. Let Shaco's crit and backstab damage stack.
Bellows3 votesIt may or may not be a popular opinion, but I EASILY see Cait win 75% of the games I am with her in, my team or not. Shes down right oppressive early and disgusting late. Needs a good gutting, IMHO.
All Hail Twitch. 
Paroe1 votesIt may or may not be a popular opinion, but I EASILY see Cait win 75% of the games I am with her in, my team or not. Shes down right oppressive early and disgusting late. Needs a good gutting, IMHO.
All Hail Twitch.
Cait and vayne are in 90% of low ELO. Caitlyn needs her traps nerfed =/ they need a 1s arming time at the minimum, and their stacking mechanic removed at the maximum.
WoonStruck1 votesYou've never seen a decent cait mid-late game if you think that's all that's wrong with her.
stacks insanely well with her passive, which stacks absurdly well with fervor or Warlord's and just a 
(not even required).
Paroe1 votesYou've never seen a decent cait mid-late game if you think that's all that's wrong with her.
while true, its her traps that give her instant access to her passive, stack up to 4, and can be used instantly with no arming time that make her a problem.
And ive made several threads asking about hard counters. People keep saying "oh play what you want" and that nonsense when im asking serious questions. Makes me think that most people have no idea just how strong caitlyn even IS and how dominant she is because of any support with CC or that ridiculous 950 range when you pop on a trap that half the time you can even SEE.
Dominick Destine2 votesBecause Caitlyn does not have 4 escape mechanisms. Caitlyn has one, and it's the worst one amongst dashes in ADC category.
Shaco has literally the best escape mechanism in the game.
Sona x Rubick5 votesescape has nothing to do with scaling and crit mechanics
and escapes also have nothing to do with how a teamfight goes, and especially how an assassin has less burst damage than a marksmen
Dominick Destine2 votes[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZYpl16A6,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2016-12-10T18:38:49.004+0000)
and escapes also have nothing to do with how a teamfight goes
This is where I would check your rank, but Riot does not like it when I do that.
Escapes have a LOT to do with how team fights go.... to suggest otherwise is to betray your inexperience to the person you are arguing against.
Sona x Rubick5 voteshttp://www.lolking.net/summoner/euw/21335235
go on, check my rank LOL. diamond s4, master s5, plat s6 cause i stopped playing
i think i talked shit, but caitlyn having less escape than shaco still doesn't do jackshit
marksmen are balanced around having 4 people protecting them, and she still has a MS nuke+can use traps in some conditions. marksmen have a natural high MS due to their itemization
with all of that, an adc still gets a steroid that allows him to outdamage an assassin in 1 second instead of in 4 or 5 seconds.
Dominick Destine3 votes[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZYpl16A6,comment-id=0005000100000000,timestamp=2016-12-10T19:34:04.306+0000)
go on, check my rank LOL.
I will not comment on your rank. The moderators do not like it when I do that , but for some reason it's okay when others do it.
i think i talked shit
Yes you did, and you cannot back it up. Caitlyn specifically has a terrible escape mechanism built in as one of her weaknesses.
marksmen are balanced around having 4 people protecting them
No they are not. Wow.... that's absolute insanity.
Maybe Kog is built that way, but not the rest.
marksmen have a natural high MS
What...? am I being trolled?
ADC have absolutely the worst MS of any champ caterogization.
with all of that, an adc still gets a steroid that allows him to outdamage an assassin in 1 second instead of in 4 or 5 seconds.
Depending on the assassin and the ADC, so in some cases your argument may hold water, but most of the time, you are straight up wrong.
You seem to be very inexperienced.
Sona x Rubick4 votes[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZYpl16A6,comment-id=00050001000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-10T20:14:07.566+0000)
No they are not. Wow.... that's absolute insanity.
have the best scaling in the game like twitch, lack of mobility for the majority
--->isn't balanced around 4 man protecting them
lul
Touch My Box2 votesBecause riot does not like Shaco.
Marshbouy2 votesBecause a Melee Assassin with invisibility is so comparable to a somewhat mobile marksman. Right.
WoonStruck2 votesSo you're saying an assassin should have less burst than the consistent procs of a somewhat mobile marksmen (and the one with the longest consistent range at that)?
I absolutely hate assassins as a concept in this game and I still think its bullshit that ADCs out-shine many of them in burst/kill potential.
Marshbouy3 votesNo. I'm saying that picking 2 champions and comparing them because they synergize differently with crit without examining the rest of their kit, is pretty stupid.
Cloud2732 votesAnd people try to claim Riot doesn't show any bias towards marksmen.
Cait (ranged) gets bonus damage, Shaco (melee) gets penalized crit that gimps actual crit damage. Needless to say Cait's has better base damage and better scaling.
Cait's conditions are far easier to meet, Shaco's can only be executed within a small window, and is near-impossible to execute on outside of that.
You're thinking about this all wrong. Riot doesn't show bias towards anyone. They are concerned primarily with the health of the game. If a champion is deemed too strong/unhealthy, Riot will nerf them. And adc's do get nerfed. Twitch was just nerfed this patch, and Kog'maw received some changes (nerf AP Kog, buff adc Kog).
WoonStruck2 votesYup, mana costs are what make Twitch over-bearing. You got me.
Riot's totally nerfing him where he needs it.
R4GODMODE1 votesThey aimed to make twitchs weaknesses (his early game) more prominent so that lane bully marksmen can get ahead but they didn't want to nerf his strengths . They simply want to give you a chance to get ahead of him before he outscales and hits his power spikes
Sraeg20131 votesADC favouritism.
Did you know: The fact Vayne's Tumble bonus damage can crit is actually a bug?
Atanchan1 votesI think at this point it's pretty blatantly an intended feature, no matter what it started as.
Cloud2731 votesAnd people try to claim Riot doesn't show any bias towards marksmen.
Cait (ranged) gets bonus damage, Shaco (melee) gets penalized crit that gimps actual crit damage. Needless to say Cait's has better base damage and better scaling.
Cait's conditions are far easier to meet, Shaco's can only be executed within a small window, and is near-impossible to execute on outside of that.
Because Caitlyn doesn't 2 forms of stealth.
Champion Skin3 votes2 forms of stealth? What? Shaco has his Q that gives stealth and what more?