When looking at the patch notes recently, im noticing a subtle trend. Alot of the cinderhulk junglers that were nerfed last season due to their strength at the time are starting to get looked into again. It started with Gragas and i think the buffs were incredibly well done, now Sejuani is getting buffs on PBE, so now im forced to ask; Is Maokai on the waiting list?
Quepha3 votesMaokai sees pro play, that implies he doesn't really need any help.
WadeWilson13371 votesHe sees pro play top lane, and if i remember correctly he hasnt won a single game in NA LCS. His best role in solo que at the moment is Jungle and he is not even remotely viable in that role. Saying that a champion sees pro play is an incredibly invalid argument as to whether that champion is weak or not as the dynamics of solo que and pro play are so vastly different you cant even compare the two.
Quepha3 votesHis meant role is Jungle
Completely meaningless. Champions succeed where they are good and simply buffing them because they're doing poorly in another role risks making them OP where they're already good. This happens with champions like Lulu and eventually Riot realized with her that they just need to accept that she is going to do better in solo lanes than support and simply let her exist where she naturally ends up being strong.
WadeWilson13371 votesYou completely ignored my comments about him not winning the few games he has been in and how low his impact was in those games. Fine, i dont care if hes not good in the jungle, but hes clearly not a good top laner either. This means hes not great in either role, meaning hes not a good pick, therefore hes in a bad spot. For the record, Maokais winrate toplane is 45%. His winrate is 49%ish in the jungle, showing he is clearly much better in that role, yet he never sees play there.
I dont know about you, but i dont believe that to be quite solid. When the other ap tank ccbot popular in toplane being Nautilus at a 54% winrate, a 9% difference, theres a good sign Maokai is having some problems.
Quepha2 votesYou completely ignored my comments about him not winning the few games he has been in and how low his impact was in those games.
Then why does he keep getting picked?
WadeWilson13371 votesHe got picked 3 times in the entire NA LCS season. That is not exactly a very high amount, and he lost, every, single, game.
Quepha2 votesHe got picked 3 times in the entire NA LCS season. That is not exactly a very high amount, and he lost, every, single, game.
That's 3 more times than a very large number of champions.
WadeWilson13371 votesJust because a champion sees play at all does not mean they are good, strong, or even viable. Its not like Fiora who has a 90% winrate in LCS games and an incredibly high pick/banrate. I mean, Annie isnt picked in LCS either yet shes a strong champion. Talon isnt either even though hes got one of the highest solo que winrates in the game. Same with amumu...shyvana...volibear. Theres alot of champions who simply dont work in pro play due to the fact they arent strong teamfights, they dont scale well, or they just simply get kited which is a death sentence in organized play. Youre simply defaulting to this "he gets picked argument" without thinking of the other factors involved. If Annie top has a 54% pickrate but has a 12% winrate, does that mean its god tier?
Quepha1 votesTheres alot of champions who simply dont work in pro play due to the fact they arent strong teamfights, they dont scale well, or they just simply get kited which is a death sentence in organized play. Youre simply defaulting to this "he gets picked argument" without thinking of the other factors involved. If Annie top has a 54% pickrate but has a 12% winrate, does that mean its god tier?
Champions have to be balanced with both environments in mind, and getting them balanced in both isn't always possible. Some champions can only be balanced for one environment and balancing them for the other causes them to completely break the first. The ideal for a champion is that it is balanced in both environments, being strong in one and weak in the other is second best, being bad in both environments is sad but at least they aren't overpowered. The worst scenario is that the champion is overpowered in an environment because they become pick/ban and warp the entire game around themselves.
WadeWilson13371 votesMaokai isnt great or even good in either environment though is what im saying. When a champion isnt good in pro play or solo que, it means the champion is weak. Not every champion can be strong, i get that, thats not very hard to wrap my head around. This post was a simply yes or no directed at Riot saying "Hey, yall seem to be looking at giving tanks slight nudges in the right direction, why not Maokai?" Thats it. Not a philosophy thread on pro play, it was a simple question that is getting blown way out of proportion and taken incorrectly.
Quepha1 votesMaokai isnt great or even good in either environment though is what im saying.
Then explain why pros pick him in a professional environment. It seems much more likely to me that those teams who picked Maokai lost due to other factors and it randomly gave him a poor winrate than they actually picked a champion that was bad in a game that their lives literally revolve around.
WadeWilson13371 votesSigh...Just because a champion is picked in a high level of play does not mean they are strong. For crying out loud, Nunu was picked in LCS. Do you really go into ranked and say "By the gods they got Nunu, knew we should have banned that one out."? Just because a champion has a high pick rate in solo que it also does not mean they are strong. Look at Vayne and Lee Sin, Vayne is one of the strongest anti-tank champions in the game making her what should be a valuable pick and sits below 50% for a few patches now and last i checked Lee Sin is in the bottom 5 winrates for junglers in plat+.
Pick rate has absolutely nothing to do with a champions power levels. Zero. Nada. Zilch. It could just be a comfort pick for the people who picked him, especially since NRG Impact has 2 out of the 3 games played on Maokai and is seen as a pretty good top laner in NA right now. You have to understand, a champion being picked has absolutely nothing to do with how strong they are. No one goes on lolking or champ.gg and sorts the list by Pick Rate going "Oh man, Lucian has the highest playrate in the game, must be busted af." (Granted not the best example since he is quite strong, but his pick rate is almost certainly influenced by his success with Wildturtle in LCS right now.)
Quepha1 votesSo if nothing matters in determining power level of a champion, then what reason do you have to call for buffs to Maokai? Since pick rates and win rates in and out of pro play don't matter it seems to me that every champion is perfectly balanced.
WadeWilson13371 votesWinrate does matter. Its not everything, but its definately a statistic that has to be evaluated. When a champion is easy to play and has a low winrate, they are likely very weak or do not work in the meta. When a champion has a high winrate and high skillcap, the champion is likely way too strong (i.e. nidalee having a positive winrate or Elise sitting on a 54% winrate in 6.1). PICK RATE does not matter. It has absolutely zero bearing on a champions performance other than likely lowering a champions winrate when it exceeds 20%. I never said winrate does not matter.
Quepha1 votesWinrate does matter. Its not everything, but its definately a statistic that has to be evaluated. When a champion is easy to play and has a low winrate, they are likely very weak or do not work in the meta. When a champion has a high winrate and high skillcap, the champion is likely way too strong (i.e. nidalee having a positive winrate or Elise sitting on a 54% winrate in 6.1). PICK RATE does not matter. It has absolutely zero bearing on a champions performance other than likely lowering a champions winrate when it exceeds 20%. I never said winrate does not matter.
Pick rate matters because pros know what they're doing better than you do. The fact that they think they can win with him despite his low winrate implies he is one of those high skillcap champs that deserves a poor solo queue winrate.
EcchiOtakuTM2 votesEither way maokai needs a buff, his win rate is far too low. The main nerf that hurt him is he can't use ulti, HIS TANK TOOL, when he wants when it wasn't even that broken/op of a tank tool. If they revert the ulti nerf he'll be back.
Abyssphere1 votesIt doesn't matter how terrible Maokai is in the jungle as long as he's working in his primary role and for a long time now that's been top. Whether or not he's strong top is of course debatable but the OP asking for buffs because "You've buffed some Cinderhulk junglers" is ridiculous - he's not a jungler and he was never nerfed for being too good in the jungle.
If Maokai is ever buffed then it'll be because they think he's too weak as a top laner. He has nothing to do with Gragas and Sejuani.
WadeWilson13371 votesBut he isnt working in that role, he hasnt won a single game in competitive play, and hes sitting at a 45% winrate in top lane, since everyone seems to believe that to be his best role. 45% for a champion like Maokai who is reknown for being an incredibly easy to play ccbot tank is concerning. Hes a very strong teamfighting tank similar to Gragas and Sejuani and all 3 of them got nerfed in season 5, so it makes sense for me to be curious as to if Riot is doing anything. It was a simple yes or no question towards Riot, not the spark of an argument about philosophy of champion balance.
Abyssphere1 votesBut he isnt working in that role, he hasnt won a single game in competitive play, and hes sitting at a 45% winrate in top lane, since everyone seems to believe that to be his best role. 45% for a champion like Maokai who is reknown for being an incredibly easy to play ccbot tank is concerning. Hes a very strong teamfighting tank similar to Gragas and Sejuani and all 3 of them got nerfed in season 5, so it makes sense for me to be curious as to if Riot is doing anything. It was a simple yes or no question towards Riot, not the spark of an argument about philosophy of champion balance.
Well like I said, it's entirely debatable as to whether or not he's working top lane. I would say that for most players he's in need of pretty major buffing. Buffing him for the sake of his jungle performance just isn't going to happen though and that makes the OP flawed. It's irrelevant how badly tanks are doing in the jungle and when Riot were making changes to tank junglers across the board last season he was completely ignored. He's a top laner.
Maokai isn't hard to play but he is hard for a team to utilise correctly and he always has been, at least since he became a top laner. There's a reason he was an LCS staple for so long and there's a reason he's started to be picked up again even when he's performing pathetically in normal games. Maokai always sucks in regular games, despite how easy he is mechanically, because he requires excellent team communication to win with. Frankly he's never going to be a strong pick outside of ranked 5s unless he changes significantly and that's just how it is. He could maybe do with small buffs but nothing major because otherwise he goes back to being in every LCS game.
X8ViEhkPS01 votesHere is the thing about the state of the game and how Maokai does in it.
Maokai and Nautilus fill very similar rolls. Being this big beefy tank why can utterly lock down a target to their doom. Maokai's longevity comes from his passive in team fights, which is excellent in spell heavy teams. Now with so many marksman (and Fiora) able to take the reigns, the most extreme example being 4 on the opposing team. Just having more auto reliant champions hurts Maokai's kit. While Nautilus doesn't effect him in the slightest.
Playing the same composition you are more open to being countered on a team level with a Maokai pick over a Nautilus pick. When and if there is a time where more spell heavy teams come to play I'm sure Maokai will see much more play.
Also if history repeats itself, when ever Nautilus sees exceptional professional play Riot will nerf him into the ground. Never to be seen until they give him some buffs that put him over the top. Happens every single season.
WadeWilson13371 votesI understand your point, but youre only reinforcing the fact that Maokai is pretty bad right now. I honestly dont buy that hes simply out of meta, cc heavy tanks are never out of meta in competitive play or solo que. Frankly, most full tanks seem bad right now and bruisers seem exceptionally dominant such as Fiora, Yi, Xin, Shyvana, etc.
X8ViEhkPS02 votesI understand your point, but youre only reinforcing the fact that Maokai is pretty bad right now. I honestly dont buy that hes simply out of meta, cc heavy tanks are never out of meta in competitive play or solo que. Frankly, most full tanks seem bad right now and bruisers seem exceptionally dominant such as Fiora, Yi, Xin, Shyvana, etc.
He is bad right now in the sense that what is good against him is strong. There is going to need to be some itemisation changes before he becomes prevalent again.