Jungleology 101: Jungle tier-list (IMO) 6.3

Ready 2 B Blamed·Feb 10, 2016·2 votes·3,721 views

I noticed people kind of stopped doing actual tier- lists of specific roles like jungle, so I thought i'd do one myself. Keep in mind that this is only based on my opinion and not bullshit like winrates/ opinions of other people or any of that. I have been a jungle main for like 4 seasons now and I know pretty much every champion that can be jungled and if you wanna have a real argument as to why certain champs didn't make it to this list for me, we can argue. Whether or not I am convinced is simply how you present your argument and what I think of it. Another thing: The champions aren't in any special order, it just starts from tier 1 junglers down to the other tiers. For example: if I put Kindred in front of Graves it does not mean Kindred is exactly better than Graves, they are just in the same tier.

Tier 1: Kindred, Graves, Elise, Nidalee, Wukong, Lee Sin <---(Not really but... Kind of...Technically?) Rek'Sai

Tier 2: Fiddlesticks, Shaco, Trundle, Kha' Zix, Vi, Nocturne, Diana, Gragas, Ekko, Pantheon, Poppy

Tier 3: Fizz, Skarner, Aatrox, Dr. Mundo, Jarvan IV, Gragas, Amumu, Irelia, Zac, Rammus, Shen, Olaf

Tier Shit: (Keepin' it real.) Everyone else.

This is also purely for SoloQ, I don't want anyone coming up with some strange idea that this is a tier- list of junglers people in LCS would use. Because that is an entirely different tier list where a lot of these champs aren't even worth mentioning. I will try to keep updating this based on patch changes and experiences i've had and seen.

EDIT: Shen moved down to tier 3. Nocturne added to tier 2. EDIT 2: Olaf moved down to tier 3. Gragas moved up to tier 2.

27 Comments

Dominick DestineFeb 10, 20161 votes

Udyr Tier 1 position 1.

Evelynn Tier 2 Position 7.

Sejuani Tier 3 Position (Last).

Rammus Tier 2 position 5.

Other than that, it seems fine.

Ready 2 B BlamedFeb 10, 20161 votes

Like I said, I didn't position accordingly. I positioned them randomly, the only selection necessarily made was for their respective tiers. I have reasons for not putting those champions in those specific tiers. Udyr has too many flaws to begin with, gaining popularity because Runic Echoes fixes like 2 of those flaws but still has major flaws. Maybe if this were last season I'd regard him higher. Sejuani doesn't really bring anything to the table like other tanks bring certain niche utility. Overall, I don't regard full- tanks that high in soloQ.Rammus is just nerfed way too hard, I would say that he swings back and forth from tier 2 and tier 3. At the end of the day, I feel like he just is way too... "behind" the meta.

Peel Your ADCFeb 10, 20161 votes

No mention of Volibear at all?

When ThunderClaws Raid Boss runs in on your no-flash Ashe, we'll see how much scarier a Shen is.

Ready 2 B BlamedFeb 10, 20161 votes

The issue with Volibear is similar to Udyr: Ganks are at an all-time low considering how difficult it is to get at least a standard level gank on your target. So yeah, volibear isn't very good at ganking is his primary flaw. There are other things such as early vulnerability, slow clears. The pros for Volibear are as listed: Good Late-game scaling and good build pathing. As you can see, those aren't necessarily good things for a jungler exactly but I guess it is worth noting.

Peel Your ADCFeb 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The issue with Volibear is similar to Udyr: Ganks are at an all-time low considering how difficult it is to get at least a standard level gank on your target. So yeah, volibear isn't very good at ganking is his primary flaw. There are other things such as early vulnerability, slow clears. The pros for Volibear are as listed: Good Late-game scaling and good build pathing. As you can see, those aren't necessarily good things for a jungler exactly but I guess it is worth noting.

Udyr struggling to gank? Guess that's why this crazy high winrate is totally out of nowhere.

Voli ganks from a dark river is practically a garuantee on anything not a Leblanc, Gnar or Lissandra. Slow clears? Getting a level 3 double buff at 3:35 is slow while being 87% full? INVADING A VOLIBEAR IS HOW PEOPLE DIE. Bites are scary yo. AND grasp of the undying? Are we even playing the same game?

Mega tanks are given free tools to do what they need to do (Hi deadman's plate, how are you today?) Swifty boots are cheap and actually useful. Warding is hard without greens. What's that translate to? First blood going to the Voli Shoulders of Carrying.

Ready 2 B BlamedFeb 10, 20161 votes

From my experience and from what I've seen over the experience of other players Voli doesn't win in a 1v1 situation. Considering I mostly main Shaco and I invade him.. It's pretty easy to kill him. I also have done this on multiple other junglers such as Elise and Pantheon. Grasp of the Undying isn't typically the tool tank junglers use nowadays since Strength of the Ages is basically a guaranteed 300 maximum HP. Which is why people typically farm early on for that, which is something I don't necessarily agree on but that's a different topic. From what I understand your first clear is (blue side) Krugs, red buff, wolves, blue buff. Which I understand is entirely possible, but I assume you either get red pots(instead of refillable) or you end up using your passive (which is a major setback already). Ganks are difficult for Voli if the gank is standard or above. What do I mean? I mean that any champion at least in the middle of the lane is hard to gank for Voli so long as he's ganking from the river. You can nitpick certain situations where Voli ganking would qualify as a good gank, but at the end of the day a jungler isn't very good if they can't at least do a standard gank as early as possible. Which is why, I keep rethinking where Wukong should go.

Ready 2 B BlamedFeb 10, 20161 votes

EDIT: I mean Voli doesn't win in 1v1 situations "EARLY ON". Sorry, there is a point that Voli spikes in that increases his 1v1 potential by a large margin.

Ready 2 B BlamedFeb 10, 20161 votes

I should also explain how a standard scenario would go for an Udyr and Voli. You walk in... The enemy walks away.. if things get too scary they usually have a dash or MS boost to run away. I am not joking when I say that's all it takes. Also, you really shouldn't trust winrates so much..

bobyboucherFeb 10, 20161 votes

Let me guess early invade after first camp you get them at there buff low and then ignite them so there passive doesn't boost them? That is not Voli loosing that is the player not reacting accordingly to a shaco enemy. They should start on there buff with a good leash and then go to camps and make you chase them loosing time trying for the early cheeze with ignite. Once the voli reaches lvl 6 and gets the boost form there ult they should be good to go. As for dashes and escapes that is normally again players using voli starting a gank by popping Q rather than waling in lane getting close waiting for the enemy to use the escape and then popping Q and then E after the toss.

Voli can be very strong especially early ganks if played properly, and playing vs a shaco means just thinking of what they want to do and not letting them do it!

{quoted}

From my experience and from what I've seen over the experience of other players Voli doesn't win in a 1v1 situation. Considering I mostly main Shaco and I invade him.. It's pretty easy to kill him.

Ready 2 B BlamedFeb 10, 20161 votes

I understand what your saying, but remember I also stated that Shaco isn't the only jungler I've done this on. Also, I know the situation your talking about. I just don't see that working out entirely because 1. Even if voli gets to his target and actually grabs him, he has execute damage but not a lot of damage outside of his execute damage (W) Yeah, he has heavy CC that makes up for it well mostly. Still, I prefer high damage over a long-term gank like that simply because it's more lethal and ensuring to me. Personal Preference. 2. That is assuming the enemy is playing bad, because he can just as easily save his escape for when you Q.. What are you gonna do? Flash first? That is honestly your best option to Flash Q right away. which brings me to 3. Let's say you do that and instead you don't use Q and the enemy doesn't use his escape..... he just walks to his turret, kinda awkward.

Peel Your ADCFeb 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

From my experience and from what I've seen over the experience of other players Voli doesn't win in a 1v1 situation. Considering I mostly main Shaco and I invade him.. It's pretty easy to kill him. I also have done this on multiple other junglers such as Elise and Pantheon. Grasp of the Undying isn't typically the tool tank junglers use nowadays since Strength of the Ages is basically a guaranteed 300 maximum HP. Which is why people typically farm early on for that, which is something I don't necessarily agree on but that's a different topic. From what I understand your first clear is (blue side) Krugs, red buff, wolves, blue buff. Which I understand is entirely possible, but I assume you either get red pots(instead of refillable) or you end up using your passive (which is a major setback already). Ganks are difficult for Voli if the gank is standard or above. What do I mean? I mean that any champion at least in the middle of the lane is hard to gank for Voli so long as he's ganking from the river. You can nitpick certain situations where Voli ganking would qualify as a good gank, but at the end of the day a jungler isn't very good if they can't at least do a standard gank as early as possible. Which is why, I keep rethinking where Wukong should go.

See the problem is Voli doesn't clear like a normal jungler who takes 4 camps. He wants 3 camps (2 buffs and one small for level 3) and then pressures when some lanes don't even have 3 skills. If they blow their flash and still die, they might as well stop leaving their tower since he has the possibility of sitting in a bush and waiting.

Starting immediately at red leaves him with most of his HP if he takes his E and takes so little damage from any other camps. If you actually get low as Voli in the jungle, you've got a shitty jungle route.

Ready 2 B BlamedFeb 11, 20161 votes

: Your saying you have to change your route. Meaning that Voli has to go a less than standard route in order to maintain a high health bar, I already don't like that since I don't see a need to do something like that if I am just playing any other jungler. But you justify it even more with the idea of what is essentially an early gank. I mean, I play any jungler and my regular route is krugs, red, crab and if I see the chance to early gank then I will. By that time I am at 80% health thanks to the crab. So, your saying you have to do that all the time in order to even think about getting a gank off? I understand you maybe have a higher chance of getting that specific gank off as it would be outside the period of time where junglers aren't ganking... GENERALLY. However, you said you have your 3rd buff by 3:35 in an earlier comment. Junglers start looking for ganks at around 3:10 which is the same time laners tend to start warding BECAUSE they know junglers are done with their camps by that time (on average) . That's already saying you do a very slow clear. So, not only are your ganks regularly awful in a standard situation but you have to walk past a ward or look for a different way, assuming that way isn't warded instead. You also say " He has the possibility of sitting in a bush and waiting." Uh... this isn't special to voli, anyone can do that. It's been done by a hundred different champs and the next hundred coming out are also gonna do it. Still to the point, that's a standard tactic you would do under the correct circumstances which are: You have enough health to survive if the enemy turns on you. The lane isn't pushed in (or your planning on diving, which is VERY unusual since this is supposed to be early levels..) Your assuming the enemy is gonna TP because if he goes the long way the lane not only will the lane be farther in, lessening the chances of you getting that repeat gank off but you will have wasted a lot of time just waiting for a chance of getting a second gank off that you so hope for.

Peel Your ADCFeb 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

: Your saying you have to change your route. Meaning that Voli has to go a less than standard route in order to maintain a high health bar, I already don't like that since I don't see a need to do something like that if I am just playing any other jungler. But you justify it even more with the idea of what is essentially an early gank. I mean, I play any jungler and my regular route is krugs, red, crab and if I see the chance to early gank then I will. By that time I am at 80% health thanks to the crab. So, your saying you have to do that all the time in order to even think about getting a gank off? I understand you maybe have a higher chance of getting that specific gank off as it would be outside the period of time where junglers aren't ganking... GENERALLY. However, you said you have your 3rd buff by 3:35 in an earlier comment. Junglers start looking for ganks at around 3:10 which is the same time laners tend to start warding BECAUSE they know junglers are done with their camps by that time (on average) . That's already saying you do a very slow clear. So, not only are your ganks regularly awful in a standard situation but you have to walk past a ward or look for a different way, assuming that way isn't warded instead. You also say " He has the possibility of sitting in a bush and waiting." Uh... this isn't special to voli, anyone can do that. It's been done by a hundred different champs and the next hundred coming out are also gonna do it. Still to the point, that's a standard tactic you would do under the correct circumstances which are: You have enough health to survive if the enemy turns on you. The lane isn't pushed in (or your planning on diving, which is VERY unusual since this is supposed to be early levels..) Your assuming the enemy is gonna TP because if he goes the long way the lane not only will the lane be farther in, lessening the chances of you getting that repeat gank off but you will have wasted a lot of time just waiting for a chance of getting a second gank off that you so hope for.

It's not a different gank path just for voli, it's a gank path you take for someone who has a strong early gank that isn't Lee sin. After you get 3, you can have all your basic skills. But if you choose to not take the third skill, you'll need to clear the entire jungle AND a scuttle crab to get to level 4. By then, you're low, the enemy laners are the same level as you and your ganks are a lot less effective than rushing to 3 when they are still on the cusp of it.

And precisely for the reason people think the jungler won't waste a time by literally sitting in a bush and pitching a tent is why it CAN be effective, especially early on. Puts them on tilt and gives you free money. Now I'm not saying sit there for 2 minutes, but if they are going to have TP, the wave is starting to go to their tower and your top lane is lowish, you know they will TP in for the greed kill due to the nature of low elo.

Thirdly, Voli can stay immensely healthy in the jungle by going through the direct route of buff > small camp > Buff and still clear pretty darn fast due to his bite.

Ready 2 B BlamedFeb 12, 20161 votes

But what I am seeing is that you aren't denying 95% of what I had stated? Also, any champ that goes buff>small camp>buff should be able to stay pretty healthy.. is what I'd like to say but I haven't really done that sort of thing since like season 4. I am gonna start testing that right now, not because I think it's more effective than my current route, I already know krugs>buff>wolves>scuttle> (Gank or Recall) is by far more effective. But it could be worth doing on junglers that have low sustainability such as voli. I still can't agree that Voli has a "strong" early gank path simply because the only thing in your favor is that the enemy isn't expecting you to gank? Although, as I have stated you said that your clear finishes at 3:25... meaning they probably do. Also, you aren't denying that past the point in which ur trying to convince me is Voli's "strong ganking time" Voli isn't actually that strong of a ganker. I should also mention that, again, this would be a "cheesy" gank that pretty much any jungler can get off not just Voli. It just seems your trying to put Voli on a pedestal in certain situations that just aren't special for him.

Peel Your ADCFeb 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But what I am seeing is that you aren't denying 95% of what I had stated? Also, any champ that goes buff>small camp>buff should be able to stay pretty healthy.. is what I'd like to say but I haven't really done that sort of thing since like season 4. I am gonna start testing that right now, not because I think it's more effective than my current route, I already know krugs>buff>wolves>scuttle> (Gank or Recall) is by far more effective. But it could be worth doing on junglers that have low sustainability such as voli. I still can't agree that Voli has a "strong" early gank path simply because the only thing in your favor is that the enemy isn't expecting you to gank? Although, as I have stated you said that your clear finishes at 3:25... meaning they probably do. Also, you aren't denying that past the point in which ur trying to convince me is Voli's "strong ganking time" Voli isn't actually that strong of a ganker. I should also mention that, again, this would be a "cheesy" gank that pretty much any jungler can get off not just Voli. It just seems your trying to put Voli on a pedestal in certain situations that just aren't special for him.

Several junglers do not have a second life added onto their passive just in case a tower dive brings them low or god forbid a counter gank commences. Guess who does?

And technically going small camp > small camp > small camp >recall for other jungle item and clear the jungle fully leaves you at level 6 around 6 minutes if you have a decent clear... which is when mid also gets 6 and top is still 5 and bot is barely creeping past 4. So in terms of effective power-farming the jungle, it can even afford you devourer without the game spiraling out of control. Just put that pink on your buff and trinket the other just in case they try to wander in and see what's going on. Not that they should. Invading is some risky shizz.

3:25 is a rough guess of what Voli did at the end of season 5. However, with all these changes from then and now, it should be around the same relative clear of a Graves or a Kindred, albiet requiring much less kiting and much more "Press E to cancel a jungle camp's autos for 3 seconds so you can be full health and still have a potion left over at level 3 with your passive up" sort of vibe.

Finally, junglers who can't recover from a misplay during a gank are often the ones found wasting the most of their time. Xin didn't get in range for a dash? Take a walk of shame. Lee missed his Q AND doesn't have a ward to jump to? Take a walk of shame. Nidalee missed Q? RIP. But Voli? Get between where they'd escape to and start autoing. They flash? Free re-engage via Q.

While running at them is hardly considered effective, it seems to work for the winrates of Udyr, who just soared after runic echoes came to be. Then again, even if they walk at you slowly, it won't mean much if you lack any way to get out alive.

Ready 2 B BlamedFeb 13, 20161 votes

I said this before: winrates don't matter in this game. Winrate is something that can jump to extreme levels if any champ gets popular because somehow that champion can be better or some people just start playing him because of the popularity and doesn't even know why. Coincidentally, Udyr rose to popularity because he's a popular champion that really isn't shining and even though he's got some spotlight he's actually not very good in that spotlight. Also, if winrates mattered so much you would be seeing Amumu pick or banned, Malzahar pick or banned. Hell, KOG'MAW pick or banned. You know how Xin Zhao got buffed? He's still shit. But because people wanted to try him or think he's good he's got a plenty high winrate now.

I don't really play Graves but when I tried him a few times my clear ended at around 2:50. Kindred usually at 3 exactly. I do krugs>red>wolves>scuttle>gank or recall. Not only do I usually have a time in which I can sooner gank rather than later but I am not obliged to look for the gank, in which if I know I can't do that early gank I recall and go to my blue. Move towards the 2nd scuttle while looking for a gank, still can't I am doing scuttle by at least the designated time of 3:15. Let's say I was playing against you in jungle. I could easily pull off 2 consecutive ganks before you even THINK about pulling 1 yourself. Or if I did gank originally which you would imagine taking more time, I would at least be able to counter gank you in what should be my 2nd gank.

"Several junglers do not have a second life added onto their passive just in case a tower dive brings them low or god forbid a counter gank commences. Guess who does?" He doesn't have a second life added to his passive; It's his whole passive and it isn't a 2nd life, mind you. It's a regenerative heal that triggers when your low on health. He's not like Aatrox who could possibly tower dive early on. Because even though it's healing you, it's highly likely the enemy will be outdamaging your heal. I actually played this scenario recently; I counter-ganked a Voli and we just 2v2'd them easy. Sadly, we only got one kill because I flashed too late to get the kill on Voli as he healed up and flashed away himself. Eh, we got first blood and snowballed the lane after that. Voli was useless almost the entire game simply because he couldn't get ganks off. But that isn't so much as he played poorly (well, he did but not the reason he couldn't do anything) or that I played any better. It is because my team played averagely well and knew how easy it is to avoid a gank by Volibear.

"Finally, junglers who can't recover from a misplay during a gank are often the ones found wasting the most of their time. Xin didn't get in range for a dash? Take a walk of shame. Lee missed his Q AND doesn't have a ward to jump to? Take a walk of shame. Nidalee missed Q? RIP. But Voli? Get between where they'd escape to and start autoing. They flash? Free re-engage via Q."

Who said they can't recover from a gank? Also, why are you specifically talking about a scenario of them missing their abilities. Ok, from what I am seeing your talking about a Nidalee, Lee missing their primary gank tools which is their Q. That would mean the player walked into the lane, threw out his Q and assuming he's in a standard ganking position: Missed because your obviously not in an ideal situation there. First Lee Sin: He doesn't really need a ward to jump to, although your assuming the player is really bad. So he doesn't. He could still use the minions to jump to but it seems your stating that the player is really bad, so he doesn't. So, going to jump to your same conclusions here and say he throws out his Q at the enemy that is probably hiding behind minions and walking back. He misses. Obviously... Assuming a Lee Sin has common sense: He could do the following: 1. Look for a different gank in the lane: tri- bush, lane gank? 2. Use his tools smartly instead of just throwing a Q first thing. Which is just really bad, I don't know if you've seen Lee do that or you do that yourself but don't... You can easily just jump. Unless your 100% SURE your gonna land the Q although, it's usually a bit better to save it until you got a bit of damage off because the lower HP the target is the more damage you do, so you know. Play it smart?

Nidalee: Sure, her ganks are mostly based on her Q but it's very low cooldown so you don't exactly have to "take the walk of shame" if you miss the first. Also, she doesn't always have to throw the Q first. If you find your enemy at a disadvantageous position you can just fix your pathing to where your walking to trap her.

Sorry, I went off tangents but you just keep assuming the player is playing bad instead of assuming their playing good. Which, is what you should do. Every time you go into the game always assume the enemy is gonna be basically challenger level even if they aren't. Also, assume your team sucks dick and that way you can just not be so toxic and are aware that's part of the game. Anyways back to Voli; You talk as if it's so easy to "get between them and their escape" If your going by the river.. it probably is too difficult because like I said you aren't exactly behind them and you aren't gonna catch up even if you Q because they are literally just gonna walk TO. Their. Tower. But i'll humor you and give you the opportunity to go through tri-bush and we say everything is unwarded. They don't know your coming. Let me assume I am playing... which easy champ to gank...... Darius. Easiest champ to gank top right? My enemy laner is in front of me and your behind me. Walk down river. Gank avoided. Walk towards the tower, at this point I am going to pass you and you say "auto away" ok, so your autoing me and then, assuming your playing good, your gonna wait for me to completely pass you so that you Q me back towards the lane and THEN slow me. I flash over you... ehhh, not that bad I guess but after that I just assume your gonna gank every time through tri because it's the only way you can get a half- decent gank off. If I make the same mistake, I die it's as simple as that. But I won't. So... really you get no kills. Before you say "I would just flash on you and bite yuuuuu after you flashed away in that scenario" I don't think you would be able to kill me as a Darius. I should be able to at least take a hit or 2 even if it is pre-6 and being real here... Voli doesn't do a whole lot of damage outside of his bite. Minimum health threshold is 50% pre- bite. I doubt bite would do 50% of my health even if you were able to get me THAT low by some miracle. This is also without including the fact that Darius has a heal on his Q.

"Xin doesn't get in range for a dash take the walk of shame" Just realized how triggering this is... First, you don't dash first thing. DON'T DASH. Jesus Christ... I mean, yeah I guess since Xin right now has somewhat of the same issue as Voli where in a standard ganking situation he isn't exactly good. But, try to be in a position where, as you say, get behind them you can just "auto away" and then dash if they flash or use their escape or whatever. In the scenario I made up for you, I believe Xin might've actually killed me. I think I went through everything....... Any questions...?

Peel Your ADCFeb 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I said this before: winrates don't matter in this game. Winrate is something that can jump to extreme levels if any champ gets popular because somehow that champion can be better or some people just start playing him because of the popularity and doesn't even know why. Coincidentally, Udyr rose to popularity because he's a popular champion that really isn't shining and even though he's got some spotlight he's actually not very good in that spotlight. Also, if winrates mattered so much you would be seeing Amumu pick or banned, Malzahar pick or banned. Hell, KOG'MAW pick or banned. You know how Xin Zhao got buffed? He's still shit. But because people wanted to try him or think he's good he's got a plenty high winrate now.

I don't really play Graves but when I tried him a few times my clear ended at around 2:50. Kindred usually at 3 exactly. I do krugs>red>wolves>scuttle>gank or recall. Not only do I usually have a time in which I can sooner gank rather than later but I am not obliged to look for the gank, in which if I know I can't do that early gank I recall and go to my blue. Move towards the 2nd scuttle while looking for a gank, still can't I am doing scuttle by at least the designated time of 3:15. Let's say I was playing against you in jungle. I could easily pull off 2 consecutive ganks before you even THINK about pulling 1 yourself. Or if I did gank originally which you would imagine taking more time, I would at least be able to counter gank you in what should be my 2nd gank.

"Several junglers do not have a second life added onto their passive just in case a tower dive brings them low or god forbid a counter gank commences. Guess who does?" He doesn't have a second life added to his passive; It's his whole passive and it isn't a 2nd life, mind you. It's a regenerative heal that triggers when your low on health. He's not like Aatrox who could possibly tower dive early on. Because even though it's healing you, it's highly likely the enemy will be outdamaging your heal. I actually played this scenario recently; I counter-ganked a Voli and we just 2v2'd them easy. Sadly, we only got one kill because I flashed too late to get the kill on Voli as he healed up and flashed away himself. Eh, we got first blood and snowballed the lane after that. Voli was useless almost the entire game simply because he couldn't get ganks off. But that isn't so much as he played poorly (well, he did but not the reason he couldn't do anything) or that I played any better. It is because my team played averagely well and knew how easy it is to avoid a gank by Volibear.

"Finally, junglers who can't recover from a misplay during a gank are often the ones found wasting the most of their time. Xin didn't get in range for a dash? Take a walk of shame. Lee missed his Q AND doesn't have a ward to jump to? Take a walk of shame. Nidalee missed Q? RIP. But Voli? Get between where they'd escape to and start autoing. They flash? Free re-engage via Q."

Who said they can't recover from a gank? Also, why are you specifically talking about a scenario of them missing their abilities. Ok, from what I am seeing your talking about a Nidalee, Lee missing their primary gank tools which is their Q. That would mean the player walked into the lane, threw out his Q and assuming he's in a standard ganking position: Missed because your obviously not in an ideal situation there. First Lee Sin: He doesn't really need a ward to jump to, although your assuming the player is really bad. So he doesn't. He could still use the minions to jump to but it seems your stating that the player is really bad, so he doesn't. So, going to jump to your same conclusions here and say he throws out his Q at the enemy that is probably hiding behind minions and walking back. He misses. Obviously... Assuming a Lee Sin has common sense: He could do the following: 1. Look for a different gank in the lane: tri- bush, lane gank? 2. Use his tools smartly instead of just throwing a Q first thing. Which is just really bad, I don't know if you've seen Lee do that or you do that yourself but don't... You can easily just jump. Unless your 100% SURE your gonna land the Q although, it's usually a bit better to save it until you got a bit of damage off because the lower HP the target is the more damage you do, so you know. Play it smart?

Nidalee: Sure, her ganks are mostly based on her Q but it's very low cooldown so you don't exactly have to "take the walk of shame" if you miss the first. Also, she doesn't always have to throw the Q first. If you find your enemy at a disadvantageous position you can just fix your pathing to where your walking to trap her.

Sorry, I went off tangents but you just keep assuming the player is playing bad instead of assuming their playing good. Which, is what you should do. Every time you go into the game always assume the enemy is gonna be basically challenger level even if they aren't. Also, assume your team sucks dick and that way you can just not be so toxic and are aware that's part of the game. Anyways back to Voli; You talk as if it's so easy to "get between them and their escape" If your going by the river.. it probably is too difficult because like I said you aren't exactly behind them and you aren't gonna catch up even if you Q because they are literally just gonna walk TO. Their. Tower. But i'll humor you and give you the opportunity to go through tri-bush and we say everything is unwarded. They don't know your coming. Let me assume I am playing... which easy champ to gank...... Darius. Easiest champ to gank top right? My enemy laner is in front of me and your behind me. Walk down river. Gank avoided. Walk towards the tower, at this point I am going to pass you and you say "auto away" ok, so your autoing me and then, assuming your playing good, your gonna wait for me to completely pass you so that you Q me back towards the lane and THEN slow me. I flash over you... ehhh, not that bad I guess but after that I just assume your gonna gank every time through tri because it's the only way you can get a half- decent gank off. If I make the same mistake, I die it's as simple as that. But I won't. So... really you get no kills. Before you say "I would just flash on you and bite yuuuuu after you flashed away in that scenario" I don't think you would be able to kill me as a Darius. I should be able to at least take a hit or 2 even if it is pre-6 and being real here... Voli doesn't do a whole lot of damage outside of his bite. Minimum health threshold is 50% pre- bite. I doubt bite would do 50% of my health even if you were able to get me THAT low by some miracle. This is also without including the fact that Darius has a heal on his Q.

"Xin doesn't get in range for a dash take the walk of shame" Just realized how triggering this is... First, you don't dash first thing. DON'T DASH. Jesus Christ... I mean, yeah I guess since Xin right now has somewhat of the same issue as Voli where in a standard ganking situation he isn't exactly good. But, try to be in a position where, as you say, get behind them you can just "auto away" and then dash if they flash or use their escape or whatever. In the scenario I made up for you, I believe Xin might've actually killed me. I think I went through everything....... Any questions...?

How can you be so scrublord and yet still have so much to wrongly say?

Ready 2 B BlamedFeb 15, 20161 votes

I wonder why when people lose arguments they get so immature and just start insulting the other person just because they have no way to argue... Whatever, whether you agree or not that's up to you. Just grow up a bit.

Peel Your ADCFeb 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I wonder why when people lose arguments they get so immature and just start insulting the other person just because they have no way to argue... Whatever, whether you agree or not that's up to you. Just grow up a bit.

Didn't have enough time between the multi-paragraph response of nonsense to get a response. Went on a climbing binge with champions like Volibear to get out of silver and was happily comforted in being able to punish people so easily for not having flash while being a bulky front liner.

Definitely BaitFeb 10, 20161 votes

I'd say Shaco's synergy with the new assassin item may warrant tier 1. His clone procs duskblade of draktharr (It also seems to be not making it go on cooldown in bot matches) so one shaco + clone deceive, shiv, hydra combo will one shot nearly anything.

At around 9,325 with item 3147 item 3074 item 1400 I can kill intermediate mf bot with just a shiv + clone + tiamat and not put duskblade on cooldown.

So Shaco can get 2 procs for every duskblade cooldown along side his normally insane burst deceive hydra shiv combo. I can see deceiving into a fight putting the clone on one low health target and attacking another with shaco to get easy instant double kills.

Ready 2 B BlamedFeb 10, 20161 votes

Look, I main Shaco. The first thing I did was play a game with the new item and honestly I feel a bit underwhelmed. It's not bad on him, I can say that for sure but I don't know if I would change my current build for it. I am still testing it but I feel like he , for sure, isn't exactly tier 1. There is little flaws that keep him from tier 1 but for the most part, Shaco is the type of champion a tier 1 could be just not compared to the current tier 1s as they kind of have his strengths but are just better.

Ready 2 B BlamedFeb 10, 20161 votes

Yeah, so can really any other build... Because MF is pretty immobile and not only that your playing an assassin if he couldn't instakill an MF of all things, the champion should be deleted from the game xD

Definitely BaitFeb 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, so can really any other build... Because MF is pretty immobile and not only that your playing an assassin if he couldn't instakill an MF of all things, the champion should be deleted from the game xD

True I'm waiting for someone I know irl to get on later so I can see what it does against a 3 or 4 item poppy / sion

D3m37r1Feb 11, 20161 votes

I get that this is just ur opinion but can u plz explain why Fiddlesticks is tier 2 but Amumu is tier 3?

Ready 2 B BlamedFeb 11, 20161 votes

I could just say that Fiddlesticks is easier to play but I am not going to as I would have to completely remove Lee Sin from this tier list and automatically apply him to tier 4. But I do have another reason: I honestly think pre-6 ganks are a little bit better as it is less punishing. If you early gank as Amumu, you essentially HAVE to land your Q otherwise you won't even get the enemy's flash. With fid you just walk up and fear. Another thing is while both are pretty vulnerable to invades, Fid is somewhat less vulnerable because you can just easily fear and walk away. Best case scenario you turn the invade around and kill the invader (This is assuming your lvl4 because lvl3 fid does pretty shitty damage overall)

Restless SlumberFeb 12, 20161 votes

Wukong should not be tier 1. He's barely played and doesn't have strong ganks until level 6. All tier 1 junglers should have GREAT ganks pre-6.

Ready 2 B BlamedFeb 13, 20161 votes

I somewhat agree... Although here's my reasoning: 1. He's very underrated simply because he has so much power in teamfights and he's honestly really easy to play. 2. I understand his ganks aren't as good pre-6. I still think it's kinda fine because you don't just walk into the lane visible. You W and walk into the lane invisible so you close the gap between you and your target which is really helpful. The only issue is that he doesn't have a lot of CC to really make that sort of gank cap to what you would call a tier-1 gank. So, it's a real dilemna but he does make up for it a bit with the massive amount of damage he does. I am debating knocking him down a tier but I just think he's tier 1 simply because his ganks aren't as bad as say Xin or Udyr at least. His ganks are more to the level of Kha' Zix, which is tier 2. But everything else is definitely tier 1. Without question. But, I agree with the ganking thing, which is the most important thing of all this season so I am kind of caught in a dilemna.