Jungle is Worse than Ever

That's exactly how I feel. At least Lee Sin takes some skill, but I don't want my whole team having to ban WW Xin and Trundle.

I WANNA SEE ELISE AND IVERN!!!!

{quoted}

It just feels like they wanted to take jungle pressure down, but made changes that favor heavily junglers who can clear fast, duel well, and pressure the map well and forced out other junglers who aren't WW, Lee Sin, Xin, Trundle, etc.

Yup. I just played amumu, was lvl 2 when their lvl 3 warwick ganked top, I tried to defend it, he walked over me like I wasn't there, took my jungle, and proceeded to own every single rift scuttler spawn.

Amumu was already weak. Then things this patch did that directly and indirectly impacted him. A. Help mana hungry junglers (except Amumu) B. Nerf weaker jungle clearers (like Amumu) expanding the gap between them and fast clear jgs. C. Buffed the rift scuttlers a ton to favor fast clearers and hurt junglers like Amumu. D. Nerf Jungle exp that didn't impact fast clearers, but absolutely demolished the already weak Amumu.

This patch utterly tanked Amumu (no pun intended) in so many different areas at once it'd be laughable if it weren't so sad. Makes me wish I'd gotten that last S for mastery 7 before this patch, cause he's absolute trash tier now.

I could accept if they said hey, since we're doing this we need to directly buff these junglers in response, but they didn't even care.

{quoted}

It just feels like they wanted to take jungle pressure down, but made changes that favor heavily junglers who can clear fast, duel well, and pressure the map well and forced out other junglers who aren't WW, Lee Sin, Xin, Trundle, etc.

This. They actually made the problem worse, and made jungle even less variety than it was.

[{quoted}](name=1 HP Warrior,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-05-16T20:52:21.561+0000)

State of the Jungle is a nightmare at the moment, a full clear needed to try and find any pressure on the map, but wait, you're too busy trying to duel a WW for scuttle waiting to see who from which lane arrives first. This has all but ruined every other Jungle that isn't already banned in the meta. Not to mention the runic echos nerf that killed Elise, Fiddle, AP Shaco, Ekko and a few other mage junglers I could be forgetting. How did this make it through PBE? Is no one giving any feed back? In my however long I've been playing this is maybe the 20th time I've ever logged into the forums and I felt it necessary to reply to this man's accurate depiction of the state of Jungle. 5 minutes for a level 4 battle for 2nd Rift Scuttler just to have the level 5 mid laner come down and give their two cents into the scuffle. It feels so bad to play, I wanted to /ff in the first 8 minutes of the game and my team was winning their lanes. But I felt as if I was doing nothing, because I was, I was farming the jungle and dancing with their jungler over these idiotic crabs. It feels as if Jungle has no impact, no say in the early/mid game. So why would anyone play this role.

I mean... sigh.. Yeah. Idk what to tell you. I'm just the kind of person that doesn't necessarily fault Riot for ruining the jungle in such a way. It's a large change to the jungle. Just gotta hope they... change it back! But the Runic Echoes thing was just stupid. I can't even fathom why they would ever think that AP junglers would rather trade off 8% MS or 300 Mana. That's just silly.

For real, i dont really see myself playing league going forward, I have played jungle for 6 years, and today was one of the worst games i have ever played, when scuttle is more important than dragon SMH riot wtf dudes...

I've level 2 ganked so many times today for free kills

{quoted}

I have not been level 3 ganked today. Life was good.

To be honest? That, to me, just says you're falling victim to a very predictable gank timer. Not so much the fault of jungle.

In all honesty, I think Jungle is about as strong as Top at the moment. Overall it goes something like like Bot>Mid>Jungle/Top.

I would say jungle, by default, is stronger than Top as a role because... Well, map presence. All that pasazz. But I would also say that Top is stronger than Jungle in terms of champion pool, strength, carry ability etc.

Idk, If Bot gets decently nerfed in the next patch, the game should be fine. Jungle might be a bit weaker than before, but overall in line with everyone else.

Bot doesn't get nerfed. Not effectively. Think about the fact that ADCs aren't necessarily gonna be any easier to kill just because they traded armor for HP. It just changes the dynamic of laning phase a little bit. Matchups should be a little more important. The stronger AD should win. In essence, Caitlyn's gonna have a field day next patch. But the problem with bot is the Supports. It's too effective of a role because too many champions within it have the ability to kind do it all. Rakan is the prime example of this. He's a guy who can casually engage from across the lane and CC your entire team and still shield his ADC twice for the same amount of a Janna shield. You got Lulu who can turn the table with the click of a button. Braum who, for some reason, is one of the most threatening champions in the game. If that guy walks into your jungle you just gotta give the whole thing up. Not much of a choice! A lot of people argue that it is just that they get too much gold. I'd argue simply that they have too much stats. But then there's the gold increases for AD items. Specifically around the Zeal archetype. And that should slow down the scaling of a fair few of ADCs but I'd argue that with the change of bounties that it just creates an incentive to funnel gold into the ADC. Because now they just get basically all the gold. So, in a way, it's kind of an indirect buff that'll especially be prevalent in competitive play. And for all intents and purposes, we might see mids and AD getting smite because you could funnel scuttle crab xp/gold into carries instead of the jungler since it offers so much I am sure that'll be a discussion.

So, if there was a point here: it is that jungle is not in a position to get "in line" with the other roles. It simply adapts. It has always adapted. That's consistently been the problem.

Shyvana in particular was very much not helped by the Machete attack speed removal.

Which they apparently recognized (along with other champs suffering the same), but then decided "Hey! We know right now, before the patch is out, that these champs need to be compensated, but y'know what would be better? Putting those compensation changes on the 8.11 PBE and letting them feel like garbage until the next patch!"

Like seriously, the compensation changes pop up on the first day of the cycle, before the 8.10 patch is even out, showing they know its an issue, all while Riot Maple is like, "yeah, these champs got hit disportionately." But, fixing them now is apparently just not freaking possible. GG, rito.

{quoted}

Bruh scuttle is like dragon at this point, this is such a joke. If the jungler dont have their scuttle, you might as well dc cause they will be a lower lvl then the support in no time.

Or if your laners don't get scuttle. Don't just assume scuttle's are just the luxury of the jungler. Famously, whenever something this consistently valuable is on the map; laners start taking smite and getting a piece of that action.

as a jg main, shaco is dead. shaco use to be able to clear blue and gromp and invade red and usually kill the enemy jg and also get level 3. but now i have to get rift, which stinks since shaco is played as a early game jg, but the changes are killing early game jgs now.

Well, I agree that Shaco is probably the worst jungler in the game right now. With maybe the exception of Fiddlesticks. However, I wouldn't say it kills early game junglers. Just early game junglers that... Can't fight early...

Had a game. Most fed player allways 2 leves behind. Nice

Y'know it's funny. I played a bunch of games today and every single game I lost I felt I outperformed the opposing respectively. But uh... When I won? Not so much. I mean I wouldn't say I played worse but I never felt like I was winning. It's sad feeling.

Let me put it this way.

I just jungled . By the time I was 98 CS I was only level 7. That's just wow.....

Adcs gain XP quicker than that. By 98 Jungle CS, adcs are level 9. Mids are level 9-10.

And there's nothing to keep them locked in lane. They can now jungle better than junglers can jungle.

And then there's the Scuttles. If you don't get them, you can't level correctly at all. But your opponent can, and extremely fast.

Then there's the fact that no actual jungle path clears level 3 by the time you reach both Red and Blue buff..... something over half junglers need to perform correctly. (A ton of junglers need level 3 to safely take blue in the first clear. Unless you have significant sustain your kits are dying down by then, and already fighting mana problems).

Jungle has not been a level 3 gank prior to lanes..... by any real margin in most games before either, so that excuse is bullcrap. That's only occuring in Bot lane, and it's because an adc sacrifices a lot of CS and puts her/his lane behind. If you went Red >Blue path, Top got 4 about the same exact time you did. If you took Blue > Red, you don't even get 4.

Now..... you have to clear 5 camps just to get level 3.....

Not all junglers are equal in taking scuttles either.....

I understand they needed and wanted to stop early jungle pressure but this is feel different.

Early jungle pressure wasn't necessarily a problem. It was a defense mechanism for, what essentially amounts to stupidity. You can't play top lane and expect to not get ganked around level 3. It was the most telegraphed gank timer in jungle history. I'm sorry if i'm punishing simply because you don't expect to be ganked @ level 3 even though it's probably happened to you in 95% of your games and- honestly, even now it's still gonna keep happening even if it's very punishing to junglers to trade scuttle crab for an early gank. But the argument there would be that you set your laner ahead, therefore, you get river control for the rest of the game. Unless they fuck up. In which case, you probably lose the game.