Anyone wanna Debate?

Ready 2 B Blamed·Apr 6, 2016·8 votes·1,972 views

I'm bored so I kind of wanna do a debate on several topics if anyone's interested in a little competitive fun. Would appreciate it if you kept it clean.

I think devourer junglers are bad (excluding Kindred because I don't really consider her a "devourer jungler") 2.Ekko?
What sort of top laner you think is better for soloQ
How balance is being handled right now. In my opinion it's going horribly wrong.
The state of junglers
Dynamic Queue
Taric Rework
Tanks. I just don't like tanks in soloQ especially as a jungler.
Is ADC the most toxic role? I personally think it is.
Why do people still ban Udyr,Yi,Shyvana and those types of champions.. Why did people think they were good in the first place is a better question?

38 Comments

TusutakiApr 6, 20167 votes

I think devourer junglers are bad (excluding Kindred because I don't really consider her a "devourer jungler"

Devourer junglers are overrated. While it has its place, the amount of people complaining about them are making this item more fearful than its supposed to be.

2.Ekko?

I like him but I dont see the appeal where everybody is complaining about him. He's a flexible pick sure but no where near OP others are trying to make him out to be.

What sort of top laner you think is better for soloQ

Lane bullies. Shut down your top laner and make the teamfights 4v5. That or make it so that the jungler has to come to your lane to handle you. Thus freeing mid and bot to do whatever.

Is ADC the most toxic role? I personally think it is.

As the name implies, a lot of people think its the sole "carry" role so people would have over inflated self importance on everything. Self entitlement issues.

Why do people still ban Udyr,Yi,Shyvana and those types of champions.. Why did people think they were good in the first place is a better question?

Because it seems like people forgot how to counter pick all of a sudden. I personally find devourer Xin to be more of a pain in the ass than all of them combined ever since they buffed him. Would rather face any of the three said champs fed than to face a fed Xin.

ZidarynApr 6, 20162 votes

I definitely agree with you on that Ekko part.

A Miss FortuneApr 6, 20164 votes

Ekko's kit is simply broken by Riot's standard of "uninteractive". There's no way a utility-tank-assassin will ever exist in the game in a healthy manner. By definition an assassin is basically a champion who can kill a squishy in a few seconds. If Ekko can fill the role of assassin while also sporting tank builds and maintaining a high amount of utility, he definitely isn't balanced nor is he healthy. Either Ekko will be able to do way too much or he will be useless. Ekko currently is primarily played as a Jungler and goes for a bruiser or straight tank build almost every game. You could say this is fine because Ekko's damage lacks behind other assassins, but this is simply not true. Ekko as a tank falls behind other assassin' damage output by usually 3,000 - 4,000 damage, and when he is built with a mostly damage build he is pretty much in the normal range for assassin damage per game on average (being around 20,000 - 22,000)

It doesn't help that his kit is insanely overloaded and his kit is designed to unpunish players for making mistakes with him which is my main point about him being broken. You accidentally got caught out? R to restart to your last save! on top of him having a dash and potentially a targeted blink is simply too much safety on top of him being able to build tanky (and still maintain his fair damage output). He needs a rework that gives him a defined role outside of "utility-tank-assassin-bruiser-mage". It's like Azir who had no defined role or strengths, he could do so much and his kit kind of made no sense.

DREADN0UGHTApr 6, 20162 votes

Top of the Ladder players think Ekko is one of the most broken champs in the game by far.

Unfortunate GameApr 6, 20162 votes

I agree. Dev jgs are worthless compared to the high tier jgers such as , etc. Theres a reason why there arent many dev jgers in high elo.
Ekkos pretty strong right now, and has been before the "buff".
Im a big fan of gangplank, but poppy, nautilus, gragas, and the usual meta picks are fine too. But theyre not my style, so i'll stick to gangplank, or yasuo, or just play my mid laners/jgers in the top lane. I have no problem playing nidalee or elise in the top lane.
I agree, but I believe theyre working on it, and it'll get better. Im unsure if they listen to community feedback, but this games really hard to balance if you think about it, so you need to give them credit, even if theyre completely blind to certain things on this game.
I main jg, i think its the funnest role because you usually dont have to deal with anyone else, and you get to be alone- I think jgers are fine, but then again youre talking to someone who plays katarina, ahri, lulu, orianna jg for fun, and wouldnt mind playing in ranked either. Im pretty confident in my orianna jg, as troll as it sounds.
I dont like it, but I dont face it everyday either, so dont really have an input.
I think its better than what he had before. I'm sure he'll still be as annoying, but hey, what can ya do.
I dislike all tanks, I feel hopeless when im playing a tank as all you can do is peel or soak up damage. At the very most i'll go half tank half damage, but its usually more like first 20 minutes of the game I build damage, and my last 2-3 items are tank (sometimes, with certain jgers, like elise, or whoever...)
100%. Adc is pretty much the most garbage role there is currently.
Udyr is good. Shyvana was broken, and master yi no one knows how to deal with him. In lower elo people dont know how to pick against certain people, and they dont realize certain stuff, so some champions may seem broken. It basically gos like... "Every champion is broken to someone else." So lets say zed vs squishy. Zed can seem a bit broken to a squishy, but put him against chogath, he'll tickle him.

Ready 2 B BlamedApr 6, 20162 votes

Alright uhhh.. I am not sure if I am supposed to go in-depth in everything and give reasons why so and such is uh... well for example I think dev junglers are just shit not because they're bad but because of the inconsistency of soloQ. I think it's easier to just say I agree with almost all of this except #10. I never though Udyr was good and Shyvana is the definition of an only good devourer jungler. The issue is Shyvana wasn't entirely good for lower elo, that's because of that inconsistency of SoloQ as I mentioned. You can't do virtually anything in a standard game early on as Shyvana. If the enemy is snowballing.. The enemy is SNOWBALLING. You have no power to stop it, your best chance is to wait till you spike which is hard because they just take control of your jungle starving you of dev stacks. Udyr is the prime example of someone getting a fake spotlight. Because the real OP for the time of Udyr's ascension was Zz'rot portal. Truth is Udyr wasn't good because of Runic Echoes( admittedly he did get better with runic echoes but it only fixed like 2 of his flaws when he has a bunch more.) or because of Zz'rot even. It was Zz'rot's work itself. You can build this item and it does EVERYTHING. The only requirement is that if you have to be a little tanky but that can be taken with a grain of salt as even some mid-laners build a Zz'rot, at least in my experience. Udyr himself as a champion is about as good as a Super Minion honestly and always has been. @ICheekyI

Unfortunate GameApr 6, 20161 votes

Haha, uhm for the most part I agree. Udyr however, ive played him and played against him and imho I just think he was broken, but theyve nerfed him pretty hard so im unsure how good he is (from the past patches 6.5-6.7), so maybe now he may be pretty worthless compared to the other, we'll see.

Which jgers do you play, and do you main jg or other lanes?

I personally play jg/mid, but I stopped playing mid recently as I found it boring, and I only jg currently. I love Nidalee Elise , those are my main 2, but if I need some cc or im making a fun/interesting comp, i'll Zac Amumu Gragas , or the unseen jungle orianna, kappa123.

Ready 2 B BlamedApr 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Haha, uhm for the most part I agree. Udyr however, ive played him and played against him and imho I just think he was broken, but theyve nerfed him pretty hard so im unsure how good he is (from the past patches 6.5-6.7), so maybe now he may be pretty worthless compared to the other, we'll see.

Which jgers do you play, and do you main jg or other lanes?

I personally play jg/mid, but I stopped playing mid recently as I found it boring, and I only jg currently. I love , those are my main 2, but if I need some cc or im making a fun/interesting comp, i'll , or the unseen jungle orianna, kappa123.

I main jungle. I mained Shaco since like season 3 but I have him shelfed since I just don't think this meta currently favors him. Honestly, I just never found Udyr to be too strong. Ever. I found the nerfs unecessary and should have been directed towards Zz'rot. My current junglers are Ekko,Kha and I sprinkle some Gragas here and there but I don't like playing him very much as.. he is a tank.

Unfortunate GameApr 6, 20161 votes

You can pull out the classic full ap gragas. Not that good though, its super troll.

And idk, ive fought an udyr where i'm 2 levels on him, around 2-3k gold on him, super fed, (as I snowballed the game), and I still lost the 1 v 1 to him (without misplaying it). His tankyness without building tank, and his damage was pretty crazy, but like I said, nerfs came so idk how good he is now, but you dont seem to think he was very good, so idk.

Ready 2 B BlamedApr 6, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You can pull out the classic full ap gragas. Not that good though, its super troll.

And idk, ive fought an udyr where i'm 2 levels on him, around 2-3k gold on him, super fed, (as I snowballed the game), and I still lost the 1 v 1 to him (without misplaying it). His tankyness without building tank, and his damage was pretty crazy, but like I said, nerfs came so idk how good he is now, but you dont seem to think he was very good, so idk.

Well the mistake was that you CHOSE to 1v1 an UDYR. Like, I have to admit Udyr is garbage but the one thing he will always be is God in 1v1 Scenarios. The only issue with that is that typically Udyr can't enter a 1v1 scenario because people just literally run the opposite direction and or you get kited by an iceborn ezreal or whatever..

Unfortunate GameApr 6, 20161 votes

Seems right.

xl Kirito lxApr 6, 20162 votes

Sure. Why not.

1: In taking the opposite veiw; they at least take time to scale up into usefulness, compared to how every tank takes Runic Echoes for the overload of stats.
2: Completely balanced, tank itemization is incredibly overtuned.
3: Niche picks, Malphite, Darius, Vladimir. tbh though, go for whatevers OP. Graves is still an amazing example of this. You will out stat check most people. 4: Nothing to do about it. To get the game to a relatively balanced state, where the majority of players are happy would take another preseason worth of time. Just gotta hope that S7 will be better. 5: Determine the game even more so in soloQ then the ADC/mid. Whoever has the better jungler typically wins. 6: People want soloQ because they're unable to climb, and blame it on premades. Higher mmrs have more relevant arguements, running into LCS teams. Aside from that, there are already multiple arguments to why soloQ would fail, and no ones posted a reasonable answer.
7: He looks good. The bond mechanic allows for so much counterplay potential. I almost question if Kalista's spear mechanic would've worked better on Taric. 8: Tanks are OP. ADC's get OP items to deal with tanks. AD fighters/brusiers use the items that ADC's got. Mages lose out on all of this, since AD is able to negate most AP assassins burst. 9: ADC's are the core. If you keep the ADC alive you win. Typically all roles are toxic though. Seems more champion based then anything.
10: All of those champions run around at 500+ms relatively consistently, have incredible damage output. You can't kite an Udyr, Yi destroys tanks as fast as he destroys squishies, and Shyvana manages to build one damage item into full tank, and still have incredibly high damage output.

Probably supposed to pick one. But, I have time, sooooooooo.

Your move.

Ready 2 B BlamedApr 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=xl Kirito lx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MfIc94TX,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-04-06T03:57:55.662+0000)

Sure. Why not.

1: In taking the opposite veiw; they at least take time to scale up into usefulness, compared to how every tank takes Runic Echoes for the overload of stats.
2: Completely balanced, tank itemization is incredibly overtuned.
3: Niche picks, Malphite, Darius, Vladimir. tbh though, go for whatevers OP. Graves is still an amazing example of this. You will out stat check most people. 4: Nothing to do about it. To get the game to a relatively balanced state, where the majority of players are happy would take another preseason worth of time. Just gotta hope that S7 will be better. 5: Determine the game even more so in soloQ then the ADC/mid. Whoever has the better jungler typically wins. 6: People want soloQ because they're unable to climb, and blame it on premades. Higher mmrs have more relevant arguements, running into LCS teams. Aside from that, there are already multiple arguments to why soloQ would fail, and no ones posted a reasonable answer.
7: He looks good. The bond mechanic allows for so much counterplay potential. I almost question if Kalista's spear mechanic would've worked better on Taric. 8: Tanks are OP. ADC's get OP items to deal with tanks. AD fighters/brusiers use the items that ADC's got. Mages lose out on all of this, since AD is able to negate most AP assassins burst. 9: ADC's are the core. If you keep the ADC alive you win. Typically all roles are toxic though. Seems more champion based then anything.
10: All of those champions run around at 500+ms relatively consistently, have incredible damage output. You can't kite an Udyr, Yi destroys tanks as fast as he destroys squishies, and Shyvana manages to build one damage item into full tank, and still have incredibly high damage output.

Probably supposed to pick one. But, I have time, sooooooooo.

Your move.

Okay. First, addressing Yi, Udyr, Shyvana Yi: I admit champions like these tend to have insane damage output but at the same time it's an amount that exceeds the necessary damage you should need. I am not arguing that it's not a lot of damage but, with my experiences against Yi's it's easy to just wait for him to come in and burst him or catch him and burst him. Another point is that he takes WAY too long to scale. Well, not that he takes long but during the early game you're setting your team to basically 4v5 because you're just useless that entire time. Even when you have sated you need like 2 items to really spike, which I guess you should have an item and a half by that time but still. Counterganking is really hard to because Yi is probably the only 1 of these types of champions that doesn't have innately strong base damage. He's basically a weaker Shyvana in all points because even if he may have slightly more damage output later in the game, he still has the weakness of being easily burstable (no matter how you build him) Shyvana is just tankier in that regard so while she can be bursted it's not to the extent of Yi. Which bring me to Shyvana. Shyvana: She basically is Yi but she doesn't have his weaknesses. She's still pisspoor at ganking early but she does carry that innate damage that helps her countergank. Easily kiteable like Yi yeah but she's got it. The only thing i'd say is that she's a DEVOURER jungler so... I only consider her good in higher elo where you have more reliable teams to not get snowballed on way too early into the game. Udyr: As much as I love Udyr's design I hate his kit. He is easily the most useless champion in the game for me. Like, his ganks suck ass unless the laner actually tries to get ganked by him. I think Yi ganks better than Udyr because at least Yi has Alpha Strike to close a gap. Granted, Udyr's damage output is INSANE! It's just way too hard to actually get it off because he's easily the most kiteable champion in the game. I just think the only reason people saw him as "OP" is because he was firstly selected to take Zz'rot. Zz'rot is truly OP and is nothing to do with Udyr.

I personally don't like tanks because it's just a luxury, not for you, but for your carries. And it's soloQ you can't really carry with a tank especially in lower elo because carries are unreliable. Especially ADCs who are obsessed with having a "Tank" on their team and like... It gets BAD. When you hear them say "We woulda won if we had a tank" you know it's just dumb. SoloQ players shouldn't expect luxuries and if you need a luxury to carry you are just not climbing.

Athenes LuluApr 6, 20162 votes

Hahah! I like you for your bravery. This will be fun.

Yeah, sometimes they will screw up team comps, such as too much AD, no real frontline, etc.
I don't really play midlane, but dealing with him from a support's perspective is a total piece of cake. It's so obvious to tell when he's going to ult because this is what MOST Ekko players do: 1) dive 2) soak up lots of damage 3) ult. Even easier if you're a backline support because shit is easier to aim. And as Sona? Just kill him again! If he's going full tank, I just pull off the "treat him like your typical fed bruiser" by CC'ing him, kill others, then kill him, mainly because he actually can't 100-0 you if he goes off/full tank. He's buffed? I didn't really smell any difference, and he's been strong yet manageable anyways.
1. frontline/melee 2) has damage. Mainly because of what I main (so you really shouldn't trust just your supports for tanking) and how "protect the X" is often very unreliable in soloQ situations.
Eh...... it's either they're going way too slow on getting anything done, or it's just flat out bad. Still sad that they didn't go on with the Lulu ult nerfs, because that shit fucks up her solo lane so hard, and not as much as support... it's the knockup that matters more, not the heals, sheesh.
Sounds like good ol' season 3 all over again where assassins/heavy DPS are favored. So yes, that does sound a little fucked up, though it's not as bad as back in the old days because tank junglers still get to clear shit in the end.
As a support main, I love it. Now only if I can Q up for only one role, so I don't have to give my teammates a hard time when I'm not support. Since League nowadays is so team-based, I won't be surprised if "true SoloQ" never comes out. And talk about other regions too, where "ranked" and "blind pick" are their only choices... But honestly, if primary roles actually have priority, and that we can pick use checkboxes for role selection, that would be great.
Gems are outrageous. They are truly, truly, truly outrageous. Sounds like a tankier version of Lulu tbh, because... #Pix! I am looking forward to try him out.
I don't have a problem if they take a longer while to be killed. But I do have a problem if they can't be killed at all, and that they end up outdamaging my DPS teammates.
IMO mid and support is. I haven't seen ADCs bitching and whining in a long time, but that's because I either babysit them too well, or there's just no reason to whine at all if they're given the right conditions. Midlaners and supports will continue to bitch and whine. Though that's just me...
1. people in lower divisions are often not up to date on what's strong/weak. 2) Eh.... ~~#SoloQ~~ #DynamicQ. Splitpushing is something the enemy team hates seeing and dealing with, and in a not-so-organized situations, it does go out of control. And these champs are good at doing such jobs. Otherwise people just flat out hate "farming junglers" who... just doesn't gank.

#UnpopularOpinions

That was fun.

Ready 2 B BlamedApr 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MfIc94TX,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-04-06T04:23:02.678+0000)

Hahah! I like you for your bravery. This will be fun.

Yeah, sometimes they will screw up team comps, such as too much AD, no real frontline, etc.

I don't really play midlane, but dealing with him from a support's perspective is a total piece of cake. It's so obvious to tell when he's going to ult because this is what MOST Ekko players do: 1) dive 2) soak up lots of damage 3) ult. Even easier if you're a backline support because shit is easier to aim. And as Sona? Just kill him again! If he's going full tank, I just pull off the "treat him like your typical fed bruiser" by CC'ing him, kill others, then kill him, mainly because he actually can't 100-0 you if he goes off/full tank. He's buffed? I didn't really smell any difference, and he's been strong yet manageable anyways.

frontline/melee 2) has damage. Mainly because of what I main (so you really shouldn't trust just your supports for tanking) and how "protect the X" is often very unreliable in soloQ situations.

Eh...... it's either they're going way too slow on getting anything done, or it's just flat out bad. Still sad that they didn't go on with the Lulu ult nerfs, because that shit fucks up her solo lane so hard, and not as much as support... it's the knockup that matters more, not the heals, sheesh.

Sounds like good ol' season 3 all over again where assassins/heavy DPS are favored. So yes, that does sound a little fucked up, though it's not as bad as back in the old days because tank junglers still get to clear shit in the end.

As a support main, I love it. Now only if I can Q up for only one role, so I don't have to give my teammates a hard time when I'm not support. Since League nowadays is so team-based, I won't be surprised if "true SoloQ" never comes out. And talk about other regions too, where "ranked" and "blind pick" are their only choices... But honestly, if primary roles actually have priority, and that we can pick use checkboxes for role selection, that would be great.

Gems are outrageous. They are truly, truly, truly outrageous. Sounds like a tankier version of Lulu tbh, because... #Pix! I am looking forward to try him out.

I don't have a problem if they take a longer while to be killed. But I do have a problem if they can't be killed at all, and that they end up outdamaging my DPS teammates.

IMO mid and support is. I haven't seen ADCs bitching and whining in a long time, but that's because I either babysit them too well, or there's just no reason to whine at all if they're given the right conditions. Midlaners and supports will continue to bitch and whine. Though that's just me...

people in lower divisions are often not up to date on what's strong/weak. 2) Eh.... ~~#SoloQ~~ #DynamicQ. Splitpushing is something the enemy team hates seeing and dealing with, and in a not-so-organized situations, it does go out of control. And these champs are good at doing such jobs. Otherwise people just flat out hate "farming junglers" who... just doesn't gank.

#UnpopularOpinions

That was fun.

I am not sure I can argue with much of this... But you did state that such champions were good at splitpushing (Udyr,Yi) I just don't think so. I mean yeah, they do. I just don't think junglers are in a good spot to be splitpushers and that's why Zz'rot portal is there, to do it for them. Reason being is because top laners can just take tp, also get zz'rot and splitpush on their own. Nowadays tp is a requirement if you wanna splitpush. Also I don't care too much for team comps in soloQ or.. dynamicQ* so I don't really care if a team is full AD. I just don't think these champions have much uses because of their inconsistency. If the enemy snowballs while you are an Udyr or a Yi they kind of just win the game.

Athenes LuluApr 6, 20161 votes

Ideally, junglers shouldn't be splitpushers. That should be left for the toplaner (or even midlaners) to do, since they are the ones with teleport (cough Shen), and therefore have easier access to teamfights and the like. Or just pick things with "global" ults that can teleport to desired locations.

Yi and Udyr are "good" splitpushers because 1) they can do a lot of DPS based on autoattacks, and 2) not-so-bad escapes. Though that's what they are better off doing when not fed, because an underfed Yi's not gonna be as relevant in teamfights, and neither does Udyr unless he goes tank mode (and tank Udyrs are still scary if played right and has the right teammates ~~cough me~~).

If the splitpusher is fed, either can happen: a) His team either crumples apart due to his absence, or b) that splitpusher is so fed that he can get 2 towers alone, and run out alive, baiting a lot of important spells. Otherwise, it just all depends on the players and their teammates, but I'm never a fan of splitpushing from either side.

In a meta where AD is favored right now, full AD team comps aren't at all bad. What I'm having bigger issues with is whether if they will finish the game quickly enough so the enemies don't get a chance to build tank and run them over later on. Oh, that 0/10 Rammus? If the enemy team is full AD, and he already got 300+ armor, have fun, enemy team! Things like that.

Ready 2 B BlamedApr 6, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MfIc94TX,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-04-06T04:48:09.575+0000)

Ideally, junglers shouldn't be splitpushers. That should be left for the toplaner (or even midlaners) to do, since they are the ones with teleport (cough Shen), and therefore have easier access to teamfights and the like. Or just pick things with "global" ults that can teleport to desired locations.

Yi and Udyr are "good" splitpushers because 1) they can do a lot of DPS based on autoattacks, and 2) not-so-bad escapes. Though that's what they are better off doing when not fed, because an underfed Yi's not gonna be as relevant in teamfights, and neither does Udyr unless he goes tank mode (and tank Udyrs are still scary if played right and has the right teammates ~~cough me~~).

If the splitpusher is fed, either can happen: a) His team either crumples apart due to his absence, or b) that splitpusher is so fed that he can get 2 towers alone, and run out alive, baiting a lot of important spells. Otherwise, it just all depends on the players and their teammates, but I'm never a fan of splitpushing from either side.

In a meta where AD is favored right now, full AD team comps aren't at all bad. What I'm having bigger issues with is whether if they will finish the game quickly enough so the enemies don't get a chance to build tank and run them over later on. Oh, that 0/10 Rammus? If the enemy team is full AD, and he already got 300+ armor, have fun, enemy team! Things like that.

My thing with full tank Udyr is that he's NOT scary. He's a wall but with some walls you just have to turn the corner and that's what I personally think Udyr is. Sure his base damage is high but that's like mandatory for every tank in the game! A "good" tank needs something unique something that defines them and also makes him stand out, makes him traditionally not just annoying but basically a raid boss. A good example of what Udyr is.. is Sion. Sion may have a sprinkle of CC and is damn tanky but he doesn't really DO much. He just sits there and becomes a wall where you can just turn in the corner and pass by it like it doesn't exist.

Actually you can say that the later the game goes the better it is FOR the full AD comps. Sure around 30 mins the enemy may have a bit of armor but around 36 mins your team should have a box filled with last wispers and it just becomes really easy to win no matter how much armor the enemy has. I guess it moreso depends on champions although I believe this works out in most cases.

Athenes LuluApr 6, 20161 votes

You're not wrong, because there are better tanks who does that job better. Though Udyr is better in this current meta because of clear speed and the like. And soloing dragon at level 4... makes my job as a support a breeze because I like staying in lane and make sure the enemy laners have a miserable time. Or hopefully...

Maybe "scary" is an overstatement, "annoying" is a better term. Or talk about tank Xins with sated and one other damage item... unless I'm Lulu then that's gonna be a pain to deal with.

People build last whispers? Man, I wish.

Ready 2 B BlamedApr 6, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MfIc94TX,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-06T05:30:29.728+0000)

You're not wrong, because there are better tanks who does that job better. Though Udyr is better in this current meta because of clear speed and the like. And soloing dragon at level 4... makes my job as a support a breeze because I like staying in lane and make sure the enemy laners have a miserable time. Or hopefully...

Maybe "scary" is an overstatement, "annoying" is a better term. Or talk about tank Xins with sated and one other damage item... unless I'm Lulu then that's gonna be a pain to deal with.

People build last whispers? Man, I wish.

I don't think the clear speed matters all that much. Especially by the time you get Runic Echoes it's fairly negligable because your busy clearing your camps, albeit with considerable speed, but the enemy jungler is kind of snowballing the game.

I am not familiar with Udyr soloing dragon at level 4 but that should NOT happen. That is an example of a soloQ mistake by the enemy team to allow that to happen. Unless they are trading it for something else in return.

BemaponApr 6, 20162 votes

I am fine with devourer.
I think Ekko is fine.
Idk I dont play top
I agree.
Jungling is fun.
I have no problem with dynamic queue
The rework is outrageous.
Tanks are very useful.
I vote top lane.
Yi is pretty strong.

Ready 2 B BlamedApr 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jungler Maidsama,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MfIc94TX,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-04-06T05:04:00.165+0000)

I am fine with devourer.

I think Ekko is fine.

Idk I dont play top

I agree.

Jungling is fun.

I have no problem with dynamic queue

The rework is outrageous.

Tanks are very useful.

I vote top lane.

Yi is pretty strong.

I don't necessarily agree with most of this. That rework is outrageous though, I have to admit. Jungling isssss fun.. but it isn't reliable.

LankPantsApr 6, 20161 votes

Jungling isssss fun.. but it isn't reliable.

It's less reliable for you than me because you play carry junglers.

Carry based champs will always be less reliable than more supportive champs since they rely more on either getting ahead or reaching late game, in your case getting ahead. When I play my Sejuani jungle I rarely reach a stage where I'm useless since I bring a lot of utility but at the same time it is harder to just snowball a game.

KeevalroyApr 6, 20162 votes

I think devourer junglers are bad

Devourer as an item is bad because it promotes unhealthy playstyles.

Ekko?

Overloaded obnoxious poorly designed mistake. (I'm assuming you want opinions)

What sort of top laner you think is better for soloQ

Poppy, Naut, Trundle, Malphite

How balance is being handled right now. In my opinion it's going horribly wrong.

Yup, it's still pretty bad.

The state of junglers

When I jungle I like full-tank utility junglers, so seeing early game full-damage carries dominating makes me sad. That isn't to say you can't make them work, it's just harder.

Dynamic Queue

Complete joke. I'm not touching ranked with a 10 foot pole until solo queue comes back.

Taric Rework

Looks weird, also looks really strong - possibly too strong.

Tanks. I just don't like tanks in soloQ especially as a jungler.

Overpowerd keystones, not just Grasp which they're abusing are the problem and should disappear. Keystones have made balance a nightmare.

Is ADC the most toxic role?

Ehh...I want to say mid actually, but only when it's an AD mid. But ADC is close behind.

Why do people still ban Udyr,Yi,Shyvana and those types of champions.. Why did people think they were good in the first place is a better questio

Because they were good. People still ban them because they either didn't read the patch notes or they're banning them just because they're annoying. Personally if it wasn't so harmful to let OPs open, i'd like to ban out every Dev jungler just because I hate the item and the neglectful, forever-farming, never-fighting style that people that use it tend to be about.

Sire HippingtonApr 6, 20162 votes

Devourer is just a bad design at the current state of the game. It gives a to delayed to powerfull spike and caters to champions that on their own are already rather problematic. As a result, low Elos are dominated by devourer as you usually easily can afk farm till sated without worring to much and then just find those small fights where melee-dps champs that use devourer usually thrive, or your YI and thx to the the long game times in low elo you usually reach the breaking point of becomeing op eventually. In higher elos, they are simply usless. Giving up so much early pressure is rarly worth the reward, especially since more coordinated teams can easily handle melee dps later on, as they are easy to peel in teamfights. 2) He's in a rather good spot right now, if anything his ap-builts could use some help mid-lategame as ap-ekko is rather snowball dependend. Tank ekko might be annoying, but his damage isn't nearly as high as most people claim it is. AS a maokai with same items, i do more damage... 3) Lanebullies, SoloQ is all about snowballing right now, you don't want to rely on your team poulling it together and do a proper teamfight, you want to be able to controll the game as soon as possible. 4) Depends on what you all incloud in 'balance'. If it's just the raw powerlevel, i'd say it was horrible at the start of the season and is now on a good way, though still rather slow on reacting to outliners. If you also mean power-distrubution within champions kits, this is where riot goes horrible wrong ever since mid S5. Waaaay to much emphasis on 'unique strategic niches', resulting in over exegerated strengths and weaknesses, resulting in heavy counterpicks and binary situations. 5) Mostly the same as in the past, Still incredible massive impact on the game early on, thus only the alreound earlygame powerhouses are good in high elos, especially competetive play. Champs that simply can do it all in the early, clear fast and sustained, gank, savely invade and either have a strong duel or great disengage, so lee, gragas and elise as evergreen jungler unless gutted in numbers with some others rotating based on meta, currently kindret, graves and nidalee since toplane usually packs alot cc so you don't need it from the jungle and can have powerfull ganks with just damage. 6) Don't know why anyone would have though matching solo players and teams against each other would be a great idea... And the champselect also is rather bad executed, primary role for me should mean 'atleast 60%', and there is a 'random' option missing, as fill = support. 7) Good concept, but the usual balance issue: his powers and weaknesses are to strong defind, leading to a huge diffetrence between worst and best case. In Tarics case, the issue is the passive. As long as he can keep useing the passive AAs, he's a broken beast that can duel even a jax without really loosing any health. But if he gets kited, he has a really hard time as his only skill that helps himn to get into aa range will have a huge CD, and his tankiness also is rather poor if he can't use the passive to lower the shield and heal cd. Prettymuch a support juggernaut, probably going to stop in low elos while beeing on the weak side in high elos. 8) I like tanks only if i have a good matchup there i can eventually snowball in soloQ, but i really enjoy them with premates, beeing the main engage and seting up the plays is a great thing - as long as you can trust in your team to bring enough follow-up. 9) Kinda agree, though adc is a wierd thing. They have the biggest impact on the outcome of the game as a class, but the players playing the have rather low impact as it's mostly about the team setting them up. This often leads to adc feeling like gods and getting a huge ego while it's the team that does most of the work while they just do their job and clean up. 10) See 1), and also because they are really sacrrie IF they get going, and people probably remeber one or two games in which a yi or shyvana just crushed the game, ignoreing the four other games in which they did absolutely nothing. Most Binary champs a precived way more powerfull than they are in average, while consistantly well performing champs like Janna are usually precived much weaker and less opressive than they usually are.

LankPantsApr 6, 20162 votes

1.I think devourer junglers are bad (excluding Kindred because I don't really consider her a "devourer jungler")

Poorly designed and thought out item. Needs to be replaced with something that's less broken when stacked and doesn't encourage mindless AFK farming. I agree that Devourer junglers aren't as overbearing as the boards would like to believe but it's still just a terrible item.

2.Ekko?

Who decided it would be a good idea to give an assassin an AOE stun? I think a lot of people predicted on release that Ekko was always going to be played tank or bruiser and only be played as an assassin when completely broken. The last buff to him was immensely stupid and if there were any brains at all in Riots balance team they'd be a revert on the PBE already.

3.What sort of top laner you think is better for soloQ

Tanks. Tanks are the best junglers/supports/tops in solo que because uncoordinated players are terrible at killing them.

4.How balance is being handled right now. In my opinion it's going horribly wrong.

100 monkeys on 100 typewriters. Someone inform Riot that's a proverb and they weren't actually meant to try it.

5.The state of junglers

Echo's slightly too strong, Cinder's slightly too weak, Warrior's crap and boring, both it and Devourer needs reworks. As for champs Lee's still my least favourite champ in the game. He's picked in every game and I'm sick of him as I have been for the last 2 years. Jungle leashing also needs to be way more punishing to hurt Graves and Kindred. Those champs get too much advantage by kitting camps.

6.Dynamic Queue

No strong opinion, I solo when I ranked and I really haven't noticed a difference. It's idiots as normal.

7.Taric Rework

Looks promising. Seems strong as both a support and a top lanner right now.

8.Tanks. I just don't like tanks in soloQ especially as a jungler.

Tanks add more strategic depth to the game than any other role. When they're weak the game devolves into an assassin shitfest where the person with the quickest reflexes wins and strategy is a distant second. I love jungle tanks (as you can see from my icon I'm not at all biased) and I generally think they're the best pick-ups in solo que. People just suck at focusing them down properly, and BTW most of the time you should focus the tank, that whole "don't focus the tank" thing is the dumbest idea bronze has ever came up with.

Right now the problem with tank items stems from a deeper problem in the game. MR isn't a needed stat in most games because the highest value mages are low damage, which in itself stems from itemisation problems. Because of this the two or three strongest armour items in the game become utterly insane and it doesn't matter what they are. Before it was Deadmans and FH, then Deadmans, GA and ZZ'rots now it's Sunfire and IBG. As long as the expected damage output of the enemy team is 80% physical the strongest armour item in the game is going to be the strongest item in the game.

9.Is ADC the most toxic role? I personally think it is.

Yes, bonus points if they're Vayne. Other strong candidates are hard carry junglers and top lanners and assassin mids. People playing non-playmaking ADCs like Ashe, Sivir, Cait, Kog ect are usually OK though, it's normally the Vaynes, Lucians, Ez's and Jhins who are arses.

Why do people still ban Udyr,Yi,Shyvana and those types of champions.. Why did people think they were good in the first place is a better question?

This is Solo que, where Sej had an above average ban rate 2 months after she'd been gutted. Do you really think any of your team has actually read the patch notes?

Shroom JunkieApr 6, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I think devourer junglers are bad (excluding Kindred because I don't really consider her a "devourer jungler")

Devourer junglers are usually better for SoloQ, especially low-mid elo(bronze to gold, maybe plat), because they can take advantage of Guinsoos and Sated so easily and go full tank. However with enough team focus, so against a 4-5 or maybe even just 3-man premade working together well, they can easily win against them. Master Yi is the biggest offender, often working in even high elo because of his untargettability with Q.

Ekko?

Personally I think he's pretty stupid at the moment, building tank and doing tons of damage, but I see just as much of a problem with champs like Fiora and Graves.

What sort of top laner you think is better for soloQ

Generally, if you have map awareness, I think Shen. He's a good laner, has a global ult, and with TP can easily gank lanes with his almost unnoticeable ultimate effect and go in for the taunt and slow for the kill. Then he can teleport back to lane or if possible just recall and get items or take the tower.

How balance is being handled right now. In my opinion it's going horribly wrong.

I think its terrible for the players but great for Riot. From a business point of view, making champs always OP at times makes more people buy their skins and they've been keeping most of them OP just long enough to make people think they'll stay that way, then they nerf them to eh-range and buff someone else.

The state of junglers

I think junglers are probably in the best stay as of current, the only offenders being devourer junglers.

Dynamic Queue

Like balancing and getting people to buy skins, Dynamic Queue is doing the same thing, putting players in a position where they need a premade or else they get rekt in Ranked and along with premades is the pressure from your friends to buy a skin or buy RP to get a champ or more rune pages and save IP for runes or something of the sort. I personally don't think they'll ever remake SoloQ for that reason, they've done it before and they'll continue saying they will for awhile until we stop complaining and forget about it for the most part, then they'll stop saying they will and won't say they won't.

Taric Rework

It looks pretty good, but I feel like the first patch of release will be like any new champ or rework where its pretty OP so people buy him and skins.

Tanks. I just don't like tanks in soloQ especially as a jungler.

Tanks are a huge problem since the juggernaut update and the Burning Tides event. The new juggernaut items, juggernaut update, ADC update and constant addition of %health and true damage have destroyed the role and turned it into the support who protects his ADC early, possibly lands a few grabs if he has a hook or peels for the first few minutes of a fight before being melted like butter so that he's forced to build a Zz'rot Portal to be semi-useful.

Is ADC the most toxic role? I personally think it is.

AD in general is very toxic right now, melting tanks like butter, dealing burst and consistent damage, and almost always having mobility whereas AP almost never does, and in general just being the best class in the game. Anyone who scales with AD is better than those who scale with AP, plain and simple.

Why do people still ban Udyr,Yi,Shyvana and those types of champions.. Why did people think they were good in the first place is a better question?

Udyr was from the start of Devourer, but people learned to play against it and peel. After the Runeglaive update he turned OP because people couldn't kite or peel off of him nearly as easily with the extremely early MS and burst boost. After Runeglaive was nerfed he turned balanced again and people just won't accept it when they get pwn'd by an Udyr and will blame Runeglaive.

Master Yi is... well, almost everything. He can avoid damage and CC with Alpha Strike, his E procs twice every other hit with Devourer, Devourer AS and Guinsoos AS scale with his ultimate and passive, and with all that Guinsoos, Devourer, and E damage proc'd twice every hit with his passive and Devourer, it makes for tons of damage and after Devourer and Guinsoos he can build full tank, avoid damage and CC with Q, possibly also build Banshee's to dodge more CC and be tanky, his W reduces damage and heals so unless he's CC'd during that time which he can generally dodge with Q if its up then he takes almost no damage.

In good, communicative premade groups it makes it easier to gang up on him and CC him down, but even then with all his ways of dodging or removing CC(Q, Banshee's, Quicksilver Sash) its very hard to keep him from 3-shotting your carries while moving at 600+ MS.

Shyvana is pretty balanced as of this moment, easy to peel and kite if you have the CC or mobility, but before her W MS nerfs she moved so fast you couldn't and her tankiness combined with her ultimate dash and knockback plus Devourer and BotRK or Guinsoos as well as her Flame Breath and Twin Bite made her a prominent threat.

Tychusfindlay919Apr 6, 20162 votes

I think Darius is one of the better top laners going against melee top laners in solo queue. Darius seems to have gotten pretty rare these days.

Much to the surprise of many people, darius actually seems to be a pretty decent counter to champions like poppy who love to get in people's faces. Since darius isnt usually encountered all too much, people really dont know how to play with him. This is kind of a double edged sword because sometimes youre teammates dont recognize the importance of allowing your ult to finish that low enemy instead of taking the kill and preventing you from getting noxian might (that lowers your damage output by a lot).

Of course, as someone mentioned before, lane bullies are always good in solo queue, especially lower elos where people seemingly refuse to play safe even when they are behind. I've gotten to points where the enemy jungler would come in and gank, I would shrug and just get a double kill with the dunks.

Darius is, or perhaps was since the new meta, the archetypical lane bully. If you play him right, he can be hilariously oppressive in many matchups. If you play him wrong though, expect yourself to get kited to uselessness XD.

NyhverApr 6, 20162 votes

{quoted}

How balance is being handled right now. In my opinion it's going horribly wrong.

Not well, most would probably agree. People can be optimistic about the future but I don't think many people are given Riot's history.

Why do people still ban Udyr,Yi,Shyvana and those types of champions.. Why did people think they were good in the first place is a better question?

Split push power / cheese / duelist power

Sated Yi/Shyv are ridiculous, granted they need to farm but if they can farm or make it back late game they turn into monsters- Yi tends to be squishy so if you can place CC right he can be killed, someone like Shyv will deal ridiculous damage once she has two damage items.

Yi has alpha strike on a low cooldown so he'll dodge things unintentionally, with his ultimate and 'w' he can turret dive while killing people yet living fairly easy-

Shyvana, Yi, Udyr and more champions are good examples of champions that tend to be weak or too oppressive based on stats/items, sometimes you can just kite/focus Shyv/Udyr/Yi or whatnot and they're a nonissue, sometimes they'll jump on you, (and/or spam buttons mindlessly) and just about two shot you which isn't balanced at all.

ErockandrollApr 6, 20161 votes

Yeah, there are better options.
Ekko is an interesting product of the Defense creep. (which I'm dubbing right now)
haven't played Top lane in ages. My goto was Sion, yet I think there are better options now.
Over worked, at Capacity, and people expect too much too quickly.
There's probably enough variation in the Jungle pool to pull out a number of strategies and niche roles for the Jungler. But champion Diversity could be a little stronger.
Rough around the edges, but basically working as intended. (not necessarily working the way people want it too.) Now if people had more incentive to play support. (instead of bashing riot about being forced to play support when Qing Support/fill secondary.)
Some aspects are interesting, other aspects make me wonder if they really changed anything. (his kit seem so similar for a rework of his scale.)
Personally, I love tanks. (Really just anything that isn't a glass cannon.)
Most finicky role in the game, and yet, it's still the optimal choice in the Duo lane. (Cus no XP but all the farm.)
who knows, doesn't really happen in my Elo.

Ready 2 B BlamedApr 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, there are better options.

Ekko is an interesting product of the Defense creep. (which I'm dubbing right now)

haven't played Top lane in ages. My goto was Sion, yet I think there are better options now.

Over worked, at Capacity, and people expect too much too quickly.

There's probably enough variation in the Jungle pool to pull out a number of strategies and niche roles for the Jungler. But champion Diversity could be a little stronger.

Rough around the edges, but basically working as intended. (not necessarily working the way people want it too.) Now if people had more incentive to play support. (instead of bashing riot about being forced to play support when Qing Support/fill secondary.)

Some aspects are interesting, other aspects make me wonder if they really changed anything. (his kit seem so similar for a rework of his scale.)

Personally, I love tanks. (Really just anything that isn't a glass cannon.)

Most finicky role in the game, and yet, it's still the optimal choice in the Duo lane. (Cus no XP but all the farm.)

who knows, doesn't really happen in my Elo.

I personally hate tanks. I mean playing as a tank, I don't really mind having a tank in my team because like I said before, it's a luxury.

ZT XperimentorApr 6, 20161 votes

Yeah since they revolve around snowballing, and riot keeps making the mistake of giving them either; easier ways to start snowballing, or more power when they snowball.
Needs his buffs reverted.
I concur, been going downhill for the last few seasons I'd say.
Either negligable impact, or carries the game, but that's always been a problem excpet around season 4.
Don't care about solo Q, but I also don't play outside of aram unless I have friends to join because of #4.
I'd say the assassins are some of the most frustrating to play against, but yeah ranged physical carries are one of the worst classes in the game to deal with; even before their class wide buffs.

Surr20plzApr 6, 20161 votes

DEBATE...DEEEEZNUTTTZ!

Comrade NapoleonApr 6, 20161 votes

Devour Junglers dont fit in this snowbaling meta, early game pressure Junglers are way better.
full tank ekko top is really over-tuned and need immediate action.
pressure tanks, nautilus is a great example.
actually its getting better, they are addressing the issues and overtuned champs pretty fast, compared with the examples of Vayne or Riven in previous seasons when they were must ban and total cancer and riot just ignoring the issue because "pros dont have a problem with those champs" its like saying "get gud scrubs" but in rito language.
Really good, cinderhulk is a bit weak but i understand tanks are ruling now so any cinder buff will be a problem.
unpopular opinion, i have no problem at all with Dynamic Queue, Premades dont mean good players or good synergy.
Love it!! wont be able to play him tho because it has been months since i played support thanks to the "queue support secondary or fill that means 100% support".
yeah they are a bit too powerful now, we need more anti tank options on mages
dont think so, its a necessary role that creates strategy, adc meting tanks while assassins trying to get them thru peeling supports, instead of 5v5 random brawl like 2010.
have no idea, they are so easy to counter, i do ban yi when i play shaco because i cant fight him as shaco and i dont trust my team to be able to handle him, other wise i will not ban him

MhihnjApr 6, 20161 votes

2.ekko

wtf about ekko? the tank thing?

For number 3.

Nasus and renekton are pretty sweet right now.

BoulderoxApr 6, 20161 votes

ekko is not the problem, tank ekko is, the fact he has the mobility of an assassin, while having so much damn cc and sticking power. He builds nothing but tank and CDR with it, so his Q and e @ 7sec CD becomes 4.2 @ 40% cdr or 3.85 @ 45% cdr. Now lets remember his kit packs 2 60% slows on his passive and Q.... mixed with the 40% slow/stun of his w. But wait, he does % missing hp when they are low, meaning there is 0 reason not to build tank... And he is the new, better TahmKench , his ult gives him 2 health bars, and with how slippery he is by default, it sucks when he just slows you to death and gets away cus his passive gives a slow and MS cohesively.

RandomoniumApr 6, 20161 votes

Don't have enough time to do em all so I'll do the ones that might be more controversial.

I see what Riot is trying to do. Like everything Riot does its a great idea in theory, they are just executing it horribly. The vision is that a year or two from now every champion will be reworked to some extent, each will have very strategic niches they occupy and that every champion can carry the game if fed. The correct way to do this would have been to diversify each champion and THEN buff them so could all carry. However, Riot has decided to rework and buff champions at the same time, causing the reworked champions to feel much more powerful than those who haven't been touched yet. Eventually it'll all even out (I hope) but right now everything is jacked up.
Another idea that is great in theory but poorly executed. People wanted team builder in ranked: problem solved. People wanted a way to play team ranked when they didn't have 5 people: problem solved. However, the idea to make this system the primary ranked queue is absolutely horrible. Not only does it favor one trick ponies over people who can play a wide variety of champions competently but it also allows boosting to be done very easily in groups of 3 to 5. The biggest effect though is at the challenger level though where LCS premades can dominate lesser known but equally skilled players. The challenger rankings used to be a great place to find rising talent on the esports scene. Now challenger rankings are more about who you know and who you queue with. This is going to make finding and fostering the next generation of pros much more difficult.

JavelinJoeApr 6, 20161 votes

Without it they have nothing anymore since they were balanced around an item not themselves.
If you deal that much damage as a full tank we have an issue
Sona, unless they go or or some other AOE harass with massive sustain you pretty much won lane or tied. You poke for so much every 3 abilities, and heal the trade damage. Not to mention that even if you lose lane you still are useful to the team as a healer.
Agree
It really depends on their skill with the champions
I like it but I want Solo Queue as well
Didn't know Kindred's ult had a delay?
I like to play them top/support, but unless you have a way of killing them you wont win.
Not even close to as toxic as that one player who feeds (usually top)
Too much snowball/map presence especially when sated with a portal

AstôlfoApr 6, 20161 votes

Hmm... Devourer + Guinsoo's is aa hellish combo, but there are champions that can utilize Devourer's without being ridiculous. Guinsoo's is too far price-efficient for its effects and damage though. I think it's more of an intrinsic problem with the way Devourer works, because the ones that abuse it the most are the ones that can proc it the most (ie, AA champs - Yi, Jax, etc).
Ekko QQ is fucking stupid and the people complaining are stupid.
For Solo Q? Depends on rank/Unranked. Nautilus is a decent pick I'd say though. Tanky, strong, deals a lot of damage, and has a load of CC. I don't necessarily like the way Naut is, but meh. He's alright probably.
It's not as bad as all the stupid QQers make it out to be.
The majority overshadowed by the abusive few.
Haven't played that much for opinions.
Neat.
Meh.
Meh.
They were, and somewhat are still good in low Ranks where people are lazy shits and live to QQ. They got high winrates, everyone wanted to ride the freelo train, and consequently, higher banrates.