58% winrate on op.gg
https://na.op.gg/champion/ivern/statistics/jungle
57% winrate on Champion.gg
http://champion.gg/champion/Ivern/Jungle
56% winrate on leagueofgraphs
http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/ivern/platinum
Insanely cheap but powerful build. Easy clear. Easy to play. S-tier counterjungler.
Any planned changes for him?
Incognonymous6 votesHonestly, Ivern is just one of those champs where winrate can't give you the full picture. Ivern is incredibly team-dependent, but he also has insane benefits for teams who do work together.
...is that something we really want to punish? There's an enormous difference to a second support jungler having a 56-58% winrate and a dedicated carry jungler having a 56-58% winrate.
Eedat4 votesis that something we really want to punish?
Absolutely. 58% winrate is absurd.
Incognonymous3 votesAbsolutely. 58% winrate is absurd.
Is it though?
Non-SR maps and rotating game modes, the top ten will ALL have that high. SR is the standard, for some dumb reason, but as the OP suggests-- it's not 58%, it's somewhere within the 56-58% range, which I remind you, isn't much higher than what Amumu and other tank junglers sat at for multiple consecutive seasons.
Why?
Because they provide tools for teams to succeed rather than abhorrently shifting the balance of the game by their own strength. Setting up allies for success is MUCH healthier than 1v9ing.
Eedat4 votesThere is nothing wrong with providing tools. The problem is always when a champion provides too much.
Incognonymous1 votesThere is nothing wrong with providing tools. The problem is always when a champion provides too much.
There are far more grievous offenders. Why are we even talking about Ivern when Lulu and Janna exist? Or for junglers, Lee and Jungle Ekko? They have utility AND kill potential.
Eedat2 votesGonna stop you there. You're going to have to find a better excuse than throwing a smokescreen with Lee Sin circlejerk QQ. Classic boards. When the numbers are against you, deflect with other champs.
Just because Lulu/Janna/whoever-the-fuck--else might be imbalanced doesn't mean other champs can't be imbalanced too
Incognonymous1 votesGonna stop you there. You're going to have to find a better excuse than throwing a smokescreen with Lee Sin circlejerk QQ. Classic boards. When the numbers are against you, deflect with other champs.
Just because Lulu/Janna/whoever-the-fuck--else might be imbalanced doesn't mean other champs can't be imbalanced too
Because kit complaints do not occur in a goddamn vacuum. It's not deflection. It's a core principal of balance. Champs only get so much power in their kits, and that power can only be distributed through so many tools.
You can't say Ivern has too many and then NOT frame it in some kind of way, which is EXACTLY what I FUCKING did with both junglers and supports.
A Basic Island2 votesIncognonymous1 votes[{quoted}](name=A Basic Island,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZTEQ3UM8,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-25T18:27:33.946+0000)
Lee
bronze detected
The comment was in respect to tools at a champ's disposal. Lee is king in that respect. The only thing not in his kit is the kitchen sink. And that may change depending on his new skin's sales.
Risk of Fate2 votesBecause they provide tools for teams to succeed rather than abhorrently shifting the balance of the game by their own strength. Setting up allies for success is MUCH healthier than 1v9ing.
Given how the boards are up in arms about good supports lately, it's almost as if people prefer to 1v9 instead of working like an actual team. I mean, how devastating that you actually work with someone else.
Incognonymous2 votes[deleted]
dunder kill2 votesYou're calling me pathetic but you're the one raging and throwing insults hmmmm
Why do you even care? You dont even play the game lol. You only play against bots and ARAMs lol
https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Incognonymous+
Your balance opinions are meaningless because you dont even play the game you're trying to balance
Incognonymous1 votesYou're calling me pathetic but you're the one raging and throwing insults hmmmm
Why do you even care? You dont even play the game lol. You only play against bots and ARAMs lol
https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Incognonymous+
Your balance opinions are meaningless because you dont even play the game you're trying to balance
I have better things to do than waste my time on this burning dumpster fire of a game. ARAM is still somewhat entertaining though.
I do like to come on the forums and expose peoples' balls on stream. Thanks for playing, you make it so easy.
dunder kill1 votesYet here you are lurking the forums of a game you don't even play :^)
Incognonymous1 votesYet here you are lurking the forums of a game you don't even play :^)
Letting people know how dumb their opinions are is my way of giving back to the world.
Daddy Ants4 votesAbsolutely. 58% winrate is absurd.
Sona had that winrate in 6.14 and what happened to her?
She got hit with hotfix nerfs, 6.15 nerfed her and so did 6.16
dunder kill7 votesidgaf what kind of champion he is. He needs to be addressed. If a champion like Zed approached even a 55% winrate, the community would go absolutely fucking insane.
No bullshit favoritism for supports
Incognonymous2 votesidgaf what kind of champion he is. He needs to be addressed. If a champion like Zed approached even a 55% winrate, the community would go absolutely fucking insane.
No bullshit favoritism for supports
Zed is a 0-utility assassin with multiple AoE/multitarget abilities used in solo lanes. Surely you understand that this is an apples and oranges comparison.
And you cite Ivern's build as a problem-- what about Zed's? Lethality meta is one of the most toxic I've ever witnessed, since playing since S2.
dunder kill3 votesLethality meta is over lol. It was overtuned for like 2 patches and Zed only had a 51% WR in the peak of it.
You're also neglecting that Lethality builds are ridiculously expensive and assassins have super high risk attached to their damage.
Want me to compare?
: 
(10,250 gold)
: 
(7,300 gold)
That's a full item worth of gold difference
Meanwhile Ivern has had 55%+ winrate for how long now?
INoble KnightI2 votesAnd Ivern does no damage. It's literally him supporting his team.
dunder kill2 votesWhats your point?
INoble KnightI1 votesSo better nerf every support then. Ivern's entire kit revolves around being able to be a support. Nerf that and he's worthless. He's not hard to beat in matches.
NGNL Asian1 votesLethality meta is over lol. It was overtuned for like 2 patches and Zed only had a 51% WR in the peak of it.
You're also neglecting that Lethality builds are ridiculously expensive and assassins have super high risk attached to their damage.
Want me to compare?
That's a full item worth of gold difference
Meanwhile Ivern has had 55%+ winrate for how long now?
Can you carry with ivern though? No. Can u protect that one super good teammate? Yes
Can you win if your team isnt good? Not likely
Can you win if your team is good? Duh?
NGNL Asian1 votesidgaf what kind of champion he is. He needs to be addressed. If a champion like Zed approached even a 55% winrate, the community would go absolutely fucking insane.
No bullshit favoritism for supports
Well for anything that relies on shields and heals, if your team is shit, you are render useless
Shadòw1 votesthe thing is that this would justify a 51%, maybe even a 52% winrate.
but we are talking about numbers like 58%, and this is nowhere fine.
sobi9991 votesHonestly, Ivern is just one of those champs where winrate can't give you the full picture. Ivern is incredibly team-dependent, but he also has insane benefits for teams who do work together.
...is that something we really want to punish? There's an enormous difference to a second support jungler having a 56-58% winrate and a dedicated carry jungler having a 56-58% winrate.
You've hit the nail on the head with your comment. Ivern is better off left unchanged because if he is nerfed then people will cry about khaz/lee sin being everywhere and i rather prefer less damage creep in my games.
Ahristocats3 voteshe's getting a love tap on pbe
his ult knock up will have 3 sec cd
OtterlyLost2 votes??? Where are the requests for nerfs on Pantheon? Pantheon is right behind Ivern for winrate on OP.GG at the same damn percentage: https://na.op.gg/champion/pantheon/statistics/jungle
or what about Shaco, who is also ridiculously high winrate:
https://na.op.gg/champion/shaco/statistics/jungle http://champion.gg/champion/Shaco/Jungle http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/shaco/jungle
I feel like these two are farm more offensive than Ivern but you picked Ivern out instead? Did anyone think that maybe Ivern is good right now because shaco is good? :/ Similarly to Lulu, who everyone is up in arms about as well. Why is it when a support champion is strong as a reaction to assassins and damage being to high, people start randomly calling for nerfs? I'd rather have the damage nerfed.
dunder kill1 votesNot enough data on Panth on op.gg. Jungle Panth is showing a 51% WR on champion.gg and 50% on leagueofgraphs
http://champion.gg/champion/Pantheon/Jungle
http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/pantheon/jungle/platinum
Shaco is busted and needs nerfs. Just because Shaco is OP doesn't mean Ivern somehow isnt. Thats a bullshit strawman argument.
Where are the requests for nerfs on Shaco? Check the front page lol
NGNL Asian1 votes??? Where are the requests for nerfs on Pantheon? Pantheon is right behind Ivern for winrate on OP.GG at the same damn percentage: https://na.op.gg/champion/pantheon/statistics/jungle
or what about Shaco, who is also ridiculously high winrate:
https://na.op.gg/champion/shaco/statistics/jungle http://champion.gg/champion/Shaco/Jungle http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/shaco/jungle
I feel like these two are farm more offensive than Ivern but you picked Ivern out instead? Did anyone think that maybe Ivern is good right now because shaco is good? :/ Similarly to Lulu, who everyone is up in arms about as well. Why is it when a support champion is strong as a reaction to assassins and damage being to high, people start randomly calling for nerfs? I'd rather have the damage nerfed.
shaco's not op, just really fucking annoying to the point that it easily tilts people
How to counter pantheon: Dorans shield, I DONT GIVE A FUCK IF YOU ARE PLAYING YAS OR RIVEN OR WHATEVER THE FUCK IT IS. STFU IF U R NOT BUILDING IT!
However Ivern is just commonly hated by assassin mains because he renders them useless like lulu
OtterlyLost1 votes[{quoted}](name=NGNL Asian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZTEQ3UM8,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-03-26T01:48:49.767+0000)
shaco's not op, just really fucking annoying to the point that it easily tilts people
How to counter pantheon: Dorans shield, I DONT GIVE A FUCK IF YOU ARE PLAYING YAS OR RIVEN OR WHATEVER THE FUCK IT IS. STFU IF U R NOT BUILDING IT!
However Ivern is just commonly hated by assassin mains because he renders them useless like lulu
Why would you build just a doran's shield against Jungle Pantheon?
NGNL Asian1 votesWhy would you build just a doran's shield against Jungle Pantheon?
df then what's so op about jg pantheon.
Wind Whistler1 votesGnar 2.0, anybody?
JustMonika131 votesBoy, I sure do remember when people were people were complaining about how weak Ivern was at release.
Just like how people were complaining about the assassins whose name weren't Rengar or Kha'zix were weak after preseason Assassin update.
Or how people were complaining about the mages whose name wasn't Malzahar were weak after MYMU.
Need I speak about Taliyah?