Every time I see this stupid champion finally get nerfs, they get reverted and changed into a slap on the wrist
End of the Line (Q) delay on detonation after hitting terrain before exploding increased to .35 seconds from .25
wtf is this?
before this change, there was a nerf to the ludicrous amount of armor/MR he gets, he lost about 50 armor/MR at max rank and 4 stacks, so what gives?
Xidphel16 votesBecause he managed to stay sane and not suffer from withdrawal after losing his cigar and I respect him for it.
dragon1xx7 votesHe's moved on. Vapes.
Goodnight Nunu13 votesBecause CertainlyT reworked him, duh!
Snowplosion1 votesI pretty CertainlyT did Cait, not Graves. He could have done both, but that is new knowledge to me.
Spoofghoul1 votesNo because then graves would gain at least another few differetn utility grenades to shoot and more dashes out the ass and % damage on a 3 hit but since he shoots 4 pellets it just applies every attack
ModWulf Helhammer3 votesBecause he really isn't that incredibly strong right now?
They don't want to destroy a champion that is barwly above the power curve (if even that), so they are hesitant on straight nerfs
Buff Jax please9 votesSo being a top tier jungler for almost a year is not incredibly strong? Lmfao.
I don't know what the Graves players do in your low elo games but he is a top 3 jungle pick in high elo and will be a top 3 jungler pick at worlds.
Rivuo1 votesBecause he really isn't that incredibly strong right now?
They don't want to destroy a champion that is barwly above the power curve (if even that), so they are hesitant on straight nerfs
Its not about being incredibly strong or not, its just hes abusing too much stuff where he shouldnt
( a ranged champ gaining 200+ armor while taking 30% minimum atleast,.. damage reduction and literally hitting as hard as caitlyns headshots )
AirKingNeo2 votesBecause he really isn't that incredibly strong right now?
Pick-ban in Diamond+
MaliciousX3 votesHes crazy crazy fun to play. Not to mention hes also unique in what he does and how he does it.
FortisDominus9 votesHes crazy crazy fun to play. Not to mention hes also unique in what he does and how he does it.
So he wont be fun to play anymore if he got nerfed?
ChaoticPinecone4 votesWell, yeah.
When they reworked Graves, they turned him into this bruiser style ADC. He is most effective at melee range (where all 4 pellets hit), and his effectiveness falls off as you get to his max 425 range. Beyond that, you have ample time to react to his Q, even with its faster detonation against walls.
If they nerf him to the point where he blows up in Melee range, I can see why he wouldnt be as fun anymore. Unless youre super fed, youre stuck being at Max range. If youre going to play an ADC at max range, why pick Graves? Even Jayce would be a better pick. A large part of what makes Graves so fun is the fact that he is rewarded for playing very risky compared to other ADCs, but also has portions of his kit dedicated to doing it well (tankiness from his E, plus having 2 escapes in his kit when things dont go well).
What they can do is change the pellet system. Currently it scales up to 100% AD per pellet + 33% for each additional pellet. A possible change would be keep it a static 70% for the first pellet, but make it something like 50% for each additional pellet. It would highly reward you for being in Melee range to keep the "fun" part of his kit, but be a huge nerf if you play him at max range. But then of course, this change would basically make him a feast or famine assasin, since he has nothing to contribute if he falls behind.
MonkeyMadness1 votesAlso, I'm not sure if Riot intended for him to be a jungler when they did the initial rework. This certainly opens him up to certain itemization (most notably 
) that he wouldn't have access to as a standard laner.
ChaoticPinecone1 votesI always assumed he did, or the knockback on minions/monsters seems weird. Its a fun interaction in lane, but it doesnt really do anything for you. It seems like it was designed for the jungle, but added to lane minions just for consistency. If Riot wanted Graves to be a laner, take out the knockback - its what makes him a jungler over, say, Twitch. He can kite neutrals so efficiently that he stays extremely high health through his clears, while other ADCs in the jungle are forced to facetank monsters and be subject to invades.
Though of course they did end up removing the knockback from the Scuttle so he doesnt the the Armor shred to clear it quickly later into the game, so maybe he wasnt intended to Jungle. Or maybe they thought he had too much power in his kit and it was a minor change that didnt really take any power away, just a little bit of clear time.
Also, his pellet interactions with lane minions make him difficult to lane, to say the least. Every other ADC can get auto harass off anywhere in the lane - Graves is the only one who needs nothing blocking his path. If you stand in the minion wave, all you have to do is move to the side to not get hit by the second part of his Q and youll win every trade. ANd its a lot easier to get the detonation damage in the jungle than in lane.
All these little things that hold back his laning but help his jungling makes me think that he was meant to be a jungler.
MonkeyMadness1 votesI always assumed that they added that because that's just how shotguns generally work: they don't shoot through things easily, but tend to exert a lot of force on what they do hit. I figured they did that for lane minions in an attempt to give graves unique manner to control the minion wave. Also, because he can't last hit through other minions, the knockback allows him to push minions around to get at the ones he's trying to kill.
Although, you might be right. His new q does seem to favor him trying to fight near walls (ie in the jungle).
It Hertz When IP1 votesIt's perfect for an ADC. I mean, he literally shoves the lane.
Durfain1 votesI see - and he needs as much armor/MR as Rammus why exactly?
ChaoticPinecone1 votesFood for thought - Rammus is a tank. Does Rammus need an ult that does a ton of AoE damage? It does 2/3 the damage of FIddle's ult per second but lasts 1/3 longer.
And you can ask yourself, why exactly does Rammus need this?
Well, he needs it because he is a tank. If a tank poses zero threat, there is nothing to prevent the Lucian or Jinx from just popping QSS and ignoring you. You need the high base damage in order to do your job. Sometimes it looks ridiculous on paper - like Rammus having 1560 damage in an AoE with a 240% AP scaling.
When they created an ADC that has 425 range and who does more than 200% damage from autoattacks at melee range (but starts the game at 70% AD damage at 425 range), yeah - you need something to help you survive.
Edit - And lets be real here - at max rank its 30 per stack, 120 max. In order to get the full 120, you need to Quickdraw 4 times. The bonuses last 4 seconds. His E has a 14 second cooldown, reduced by .5seconds per pellet hit.
With 40% CDR, his E is on a 8.4 second cooldown. At the very minimum, you will get 2 autoattacks in before his E is on cooldown again. So imagine a combat situation - You E in, Auto 2x, E again, Auto, Reload, Auto, E again, Auto 2x, E. At the very least, he needs to get 6 autoattacks and a reload off before he gets his full 120 resists. In a game where he isnt point-blank Meleeing you for the 3 second reduction and doesnt have 40% CDR, its considerably higher.
My Point - stacking mechanisms that arent completely broken or able to achieved in a quick amount of time just arent that useful. Look at Guinsoos - pre rework, it was useless even on champions like Kayle and Jax. Post rework it was broken, but only on champions that stack it quickly (Ahem - Kogmaw's 2x AS and 5.0 AS cap). A stacking 120 resists isnt as useful as Rammus' instant 120 resists. And that doesnt even take into account the thornmail-esque passive on Rammus' W.
Dessem1 votesWinning easily is pretty fun, I hear.
MaliciousX1 votesNot if he gets nerfed to the point that he cant hang with other champions. If he gets over-nerfed then playing him wont be fun....bc he wont be able to hold his own in fights. But thats only if he gets nerfed too hard
FortisDominus1 votesNot if he gets nerfed to the point that he cant hang with other champions. If he gets over-nerfed then playing him wont be fun....bc he wont be able to hold his own in fights. But thats only if he gets nerfed too hard
LOL. So you are just a meta picker. Nerfed champions can still be played well against other champions that are still in the meta. Just because he wont be able to fight strong duelers in the jungle kha'zix and rengar does not make him a weak jungler...
TyrekGoldenspear3 votesDude, have some sympathy, the man lost his cigar.
Kappa.
Saianna2 votesHe's next generation of Riots poster boys.
Riots posterboys rundown:
Lee - we hate him Riven - we hate her Zed - we hate him Kalista - we gone full apeshit against that one Ahri - eh.. meh.. ok'ish Yasuo - we still hate him and finally Graves - Riot is still putting a fight to not balance him.
GeneralGonzales1 votesHe's next generation of Riots poster boys.
Riots posterboys rundown:
Lee - we hate him Riven - we hate her Zed - we hate him Kalista - we gone full apeshit against that one Ahri - eh.. meh.. ok'ish Yasuo - we still hate him and finally Graves - Riot is still putting a fight to not balance him.
Ähm....Teemo - it´s the devil! Love or hate? Your choice of confession!
Saianna1 votesTeemo "hate" was funny 5 years ago, then it became cute 3 years, then kinda old year ago, now it's.. sad.. at best :)
Also, i'm Teemo main! :D
MonkeyMadness2 votes
Who hates lee? He's pretty balanced, very feast or famine, and has a hard time keeping up as the game drags on.
We hate riven mains, not riven herself.
People who hate zed are not people you need in your life. He has pretty abyssal win rates atm, if you ban him, you're wasting a ban.
when was the last time you saw her played???
I mean, there's really nothing I can say here. She's strong, sure, but definitely balanced.
I agree here, he's ridiculous.
A few hours ago I might have agreed with you, but it's been pointed out to me that he falls off hard late game (not entirely sure why, but the stats speak for themselves)
I have a much bigger issue with these fuckin "juggernauts" that Riot still plug. Especially Darius and Illaoi. They have ridiculous damage, ridiculous sustain, and can get ridiculously tanky for how much damage they deal. Their only weakness is a lack of mobility, but this is greatly alleviated with items like Dead Man's Plate and Cleaver.
Saianna1 votesThis is NOT about them being balanced now. It's about how they were before and Riot neglected balancing them for a long (very super damn long!) time just to milk few extra bucks from LCS.
Longer version:
Maybe you are new in LoL, or maybe you have bad memory.. Or simply you didn't care about that stuff back then, in "old ages", but Lee and Riven were most hated champions ever. And Riot did squat shit to balance them for very, very, veeeeeeeeery long time. Almost to the point where one was wondering if Riot still cares about the game.
Kalista hate.. Boy.. People were truly enraged by her bullshit passive. Should have seen it.
Zed hate. No drawbacks, easy to pick assassin with escapes and 10 different hidden powers. On top of that better-than-mage wave clears and almost impossible to win in 1v1 scenario
Ahri wasn't THAT BIG of a deal. But then Riot gave her free MS along some other bullshit.
Yasuo - at the start he was 3.. or even 4 times worse than he is now. Still, Riot doesn't want to adress him. GEEE I WONDER WHY....
And Graves. last one. From the very beginning (of his rework) he needed nerfs. Yet Riot, as always when it comes to money-milking-champions, waits patiently. Most likely untill next posterboy relase.
If I think about it, I could add Fizz to the list, but he, unlike rest, did actually suffer some punishment from Balance team..
Oh Yeah! Draven was also Riots posterboy. Back before "FLASHY PLAYS" weren't here yet and we still had only "BALLS DEEP BRUTE FORCE" popularity meta. Then yeah. He used to 1v1 anyone from melee range, just cause his Passive was beyond retarded.
MonkeyMadness1 votesYasuo is worse now than he's ever been due to how easy it is for him to abuse fervor and build tank while still dealing massive damage. The only time Ahri was a problem was when her charm gave her that massive damage boost. Combined with Deathfire Grasp (rip) she would basically deal double damage with her combo and she had Leblanc-style burst potential.
The others I agree with though, although, I really don't think riven and lee were truly "overpowered" so much as there just wasn't a good pool of champs that could deal with them. They were kinda sitting on that bubble where they were definitely overtuned, but if Riot tried to nerf them, they would become useless. Especially with lee, now that jungle itemization favors much greater champ diversity and has allowed tank junglers to become borderline dominant, he doesn't see as much play, despite Riot not really nerfing him directly.
LatetotheRace2 votes far too toxic to be enjoyable to play against. Btw the whole feast and famine is why people hate him, if he gets a tiny bit ahead he often snowballs out of control.
just has an overloaded kit. Either the shield needs to not scale as well, or her base movement speed needs to take a hit in order to level her out more.
carried the hell out of LCS matches so riot choke slammed her into the ground, the community only agreed with rito on this one.
I think the general consensus is that she does to much damage to justify the safety and reliability of her Q and ult.
I can't wait for 10 bans, I'll never have to see him again.
There's a very strange phenomenon in league of legends. Numbers just don't add up, if you run the math on most AP champions for instance they'll almost never line up correctly. Typically a champion will be much more or less than would be anticipated, graves is on the higher end of that. Right now graves is just a toxic drain-tank with a kit that makes about as much sense as a fish in lingerie. If riot were to simply make her very short ranged, so essentially melee, this would go a decent way to making him less powerful.
NineTailedMystic1 votesAhri's ult is fine. Her damage is already subpar to almost every other mid laner in bases and ratios.
MonkeyMadness1 votesThe only champion that I can even remotely agree on here is Yasuo. He is purest cancer. But the rest all have meaningful weaknesses that can be readily exploited. Lee is a classic example of an early game champion. If you can survive him long enough, he becomes quite useless. Riven is a bit more oppressive, in that a good riven player will simply not allow you to survive, so perhaps a slight nerf to her passive or her shield is in order, but she is NEVER on my list of champs to ban. Kalista is garbage right now, Riot did a fine job preserving her hyper mobile identity without allowing her to be completely oppressive in terms of dps. Literally nothing wrong with ahri, stop being butthurt. Graves has a lot of trouble late game, as he does not function like a classic marksman, but even with his free tank stats really doesn't come close to matching the durability of even a bruiser. He focuses on building damage, but then has to dive pretty hard to deal his burst. A skilled tank can easily absorb his burst and just mess his day up. I feel like he should be rebalanced so that his early game is a bit more fair and his late game a bit more consistent, but he really isn't quite as bad as shit like yasuo.
JackMcSnipeyz1 votesSlap on the wrist? Pretty sure Graves is getting the Q deley ALONG with the E armor and MR nerf, not one or the other.
And i play him in botlane because he's fun and unique with exceptional burst which i like.
If his E gets reverted im against it, if not only for the sole reason it will take the boards rage off my main, but also because top lane graves/jungle is kinda too safe with all that armor/MR
Lol, here comes mad kids downvoting because i main graves - even though i said he SHOULD get his E nerfed.
MaliciousX1 votesNo. His E changes got reverted. That isnt happening anymore.
JackMcSnipeyz1 votesIm pretty sure they will push them in the patch regardless, it would be mind boggling if they wouldn't.
AirKingNeo1 votesYeah, Graves has 2 problems and no one seems to want fix them. Similarly, Riot never seems to want to fix a champion's problem.
Look at Azir. His problem was the insane power of his ultimate and having an extreme range dash with a peel ult. What did they do? Nerf his damage.
Now look at Graves. Problems?: Insane auto attack damage and absurd tankiness. Solution via Riot logic: nerf Q as far as it is right now.
Cronofuge1 votesHe has been nothing but problematic since his rework. Sure it's cool as heck but imo they should've reverted him alongside Kog.
Toastersaot1 votesRiot is probably fishing for some bigger nerfs, they probably just want to wait until the next PBE cycle.
The Whamboozler1 votesIn short? Because he's pretty broken. I mean, not as broken as he WAS, but.... no one gave two shits about Graves pre-rework. He last saw use during the era of the assassin, when only Ez, Corki and Graves were permitted bot lane... but those days were long past.
Then he got reworked into an obnoxious solo-lane and jungle monster that shit on everyone... from a range... while being absurdly tanky. Not shockingly, he was in EVERY game. Even post nerfs he's still strong as hell and people haven't forgotten that.
Mig891 votesBecause he quit smoking.