I'm sick of like every champion in the game building lethality. We got marksman, bruisers I mean even garen and nasus are building. When is something going to be done about this? The most annoying thing in the game is a wukong coming out of nowhere to one shot you with a damn dusk blade.
Teridax6819 votesOne of the main problems with Lethality as it's implemented is that it's a stat intended for AD assassins, i.e. bursty AD champions, but doesn't carry much special synergy with them. Out of the three finished items that provide Lethality, one provides bonus movement speed (useful on marksmen and fighters), one provides raw durability (more desirable on fighters than on assassins), and another adds burst, instead of synergizing with a champion's existing burst. Lethality itself does not synergize with the owner's own stats, so much as the enemy's lack of bonus armor. There is effectively no real stat binding going on, so Lethality items have naturally ended up becoming desirable on marksmen and fighters. In order for this to change, we'd need AD assassins to have implicit Lethality scalings and be balanced around them, so that the items themselves would be less powerful on champions not intended to take them.
Ralanr8 votesLethality scalings would be interesting, but I think Riot wants to avoid specific stat scaling as much as possible since it nullifies diverse builds.
Xayah’s crit scaling E makes lethality a poor option for example.
TeCoolMage4 votesHe specifically said implicit scaling though - I think what he means is something that assassins would like that other classes wouldn't (e.g. Crit is only on autos so Assassins don't like crit), like for example lethality only applies to abilities (ahem something that I've been asking for for a long time pls Rito), or maybe they're disabled after some time in combat like shadow assassin Kayn passive, or they only work on the first instance of damage from each source until you leave combat (so one auto, one passive, one QWER)
Teridax682 votesThis is in part what I was referring to, and the examples you have cited I think are good ones for this particular case: if Lethality only activated for a brief window of time, for example, and perhaps only worked on ability damage, then it would conform much more to the bursty patterns of assassins, without working nearly as well on more DPS-oriented marksmen or fighters. If it just so happens that fighters and marksmen have similarly bursty patterns, then one of the issues would also be that we're in a game state where those classes can turn into literal assassins, which needs to urgently change. Jarvan IV I think definitely falls into this category, imo, along with divers like Wukong and Lee Sin, as they have quite a bit of ability damage that they can string together in rapid sequence, in addition to mobility strong enough to easily access the back line.
Teridax683 votesRiot actually wants the exact opposite, and "stat binding" is an expression taken directly from the developers, who have used it when tying certain stats to specific champions and classes. Xayah isn't the only marksman with an explicit crit scaling, for example, and the Marksman Update gave crit scalings to several other champions, including Caitlyn, Graves, and Quinn. You can also see this with Fleet Footwork's crit scaling, as well as Riot trying to shift fighters towards building health and tanks towards building resistances. To some extent, this is also why many autoattacker champions either received AP scalings or had their existing ones amplified to synergize a little bit better with Guinsoo's. Riot has made it clear for some time that their prime objective was to balance the game, even if it came at the cost of build diversity, which is also why they haven't really encouraged hybrid builds or designed hybrid champions in years.
This is however, Riot's stance, and I personally agree with you that League is in sore need of more build diversity. In the end, though, it's the above kind of dilemma that shows how build diversity and proper balance can't really be compatible in a stat-based customization system. A League in which most champions can make use of almost any item is one that has a lot of build diversity, but also heavy imbalances and unhealthy builds, such as health-stacking assassins or Lethality divers (this kind of environment was basically early League). By contrast, a League in which every champion is balanced as efficiently as possible is one where the near-totality of champions don't have more than one viable build, and where stats aren't really so much a choice as an automatic part of power progression in a match (this is League in its current state, and the direction it's heading towards). Neither state is good, and the only compromise here would require forcing specific stat scalings into every champion, which would drive up complexity by a ton and make balancing equally more complex. Because of this, I think League likely needs to take a deeper look at its customization systems in the future, and what they can do to avoid pitting two essential design qualities against each other.
Ralanr6 votesPersonally I think items should start getting weaker as a whole and more separate to allow more diversity.
Teridax681 votesI agree with this, and had a similar thought, though it also led me down a rabbit hole of reasoning:
NineTailedMystic1 votesConclusion: roll summoner spells and runes into items, effectively removing the former two systems from the game.
Time to for everyone to just build the items that give the runes/summoners they used to run. Especially Flash.
Teridax682 votesThat's my point. At worst, it would make no functional difference, at best it would condense every disparate customization system into one, and properly force certain outliers to be balanced around each other.
NineTailedMystic2 votesIdk, the system you've put up there in your last comment just sounds really boring. There's nothing interesting about it, and you just end up winning/losing in champion select.
Teridax682 votesIn what sense? Winning or losing a match in champion select would imply that such a system would cause champions and their customization options to hard-counter each other. Which part of what I'm proposing suggests this? I also personally disagree on such a system being boring, as it is, at minimum, the current system, with the possibility for expansion, but that nonetheless does not invalidate your opinion.
NineTailedMystic2 votesTake Zed vs an AP Mage. If you nerfed/removed Armor from items like Zhonya's it would be awful to lane against him, as I assume the active would still be on the fully built item. So we could do nothing against him until we bought an item with Exhaust, or a fully built Zhonya's.
Or an item like Banshee's Veil which would only offer the spell shield and not the general MR. In fact, what purpose do component items have in this system? If they don't have stats, and you can't just put the passive/active effects on every component, they're worthless until you build them fully.
In fact, I find your system to stifle diversity even more than now, as it would lead to champions only being able to fulfill one role. Tanks would need their "naturally large health pool" to survive burst, but wouldn't be able to opt into different roles like full AD or AP. ADCs would need higher natural AS and innate Lifesteal leading to them being only auto attack centric. Mages would need natural AP growths, and a big one at that to match the current AP values needed to do their damage. Unless you want to remove AP and have them rely on massive base damage to do anything, which brings me to my next point.
Even Dota has stats. In fact, I'm unsure why you don't just play Dota if you want this proposed system since its itemization is much more focused on the abilities an item has, even if the stats do matter albeit a lot less than League's. It even has the "Spells are Magic/Pure Damage, Auto Attacks are Physical no matter what they're using to hit you with" system that you've mentioned liking in another comment.
Teridax682 votesTake Zed vs an AP Mage. If you nerfed/removed Armor from items like Zhonya's it would be awful to lane against him, as I assume the active would still be on the fully built item. So we could do nothing against him until we bought an item with Exhaust, or a fully built Zhonya's.
I don't know what kind of hypothetical system you're working with, but it's not what I'm proposing. Generally, I do not understand the value in conjuring up a very specific system from scratch, realizing the flaws innate to the minutiae of that particular system, and then deriving any greater conclusion from it than the fact that that one system doesn't work.
I'm kind of confused here: what makes you think I'm proposing to just nerf stats from items and not implement any further change, when I specifically stated that if stats were to be nerfed/removed from items, they'd have to be accompanied by compensatory balance changes? What makes you think I want to keep item prices, recipes and income the same, particularly when I detailed an extended line of hypothetical changes that would go beyond items?
In fact, what purpose do component items have in this system? If they don't have stats, and you can't just put the passive/active effects on every component, they're worthless until you build them fully.
Again, what system are we talking about? Which part of what I have said are you basing this off of? What I suggested was an integral overhaul to customization systems in League, what you're telling me is to remove stats from existing itemization and call it a day, which I do not in any way agree with.
Even Dota has stats.
That is, in fact, why League has stats, and why that didn't work out so well in the end, because League and Dota's usage of stats and core gameplay are fundamentally different in a manner that creates significant differences with respect to their itemization.
In fact, I'm unsure why you don't just play Dota if you want this proposed system since its itemization is much more focused on the abilities an item has, even if the stats do matter albeit a lot less than League's.
As I said in an above post, I do not, in fact, think a system where items offer only passives and actives would be ideal for League, even if it would be better than the current itemization system. That kind of system works for Dota because the game is more strategic, and items are resources to be spent in gaining reliable advantages in a given situation, whereas League is more mechanical, and items are there primarily to enable champion's plays and kits (in theory, at least).
It even has the "Spells are Magic/Pure Damage, Auto Attacks are Physical no matter what they're using to hit you with" system that you've mentioned liking in another comment.
I mentioned _dis_liking that system in that comment you mention, because I think damage types are arbitrary, and unnecessary and artificial at worst. I get the feeling there's a lot of confusion here, as much of what you have replied to me here implies you think I believe in practically the exact opposite of what I truly believe in, as stated in my comments.
NineTailedMystic2 voteswhat makes you think I'm proposing to just nerf stats from items and not implement any further change
Conclusion: nerf or remove stats on items, adjust champions and stats overall in compensation.
There's also commentary I added after posting my last comment via an edit that you must've missed since you opened the reply before I edited. It questions the "adjust champions and stats overall" portion.
"In fact, I find your system to stifle diversity even more than now, as it would lead to champions only being able to fulfill one role. Tanks would need their "naturally large health pool" to survive burst, but wouldn't be able to opt into different roles like full AD or AP. ADCs would need higher natural AS and innate Lifesteal leading to them being only auto attack centric. Mages would need natural AP growths, and a big one at that to match the current AP values needed to do their damage. Unless you want to remove AP and have them rely on massive base damage to do anything, which brings me to my next point.
How are all these stats you're taking out going to be funneled back into champions? Because if it's levels, it makes having even a single level advantage on someone impossible to deal with. Bot lane and especially Supports would be worthless as they wouldn't have the levels to deal with anyone other than the other bot lane."
I should have clarified "levels" to be base stats and growths, however.
Again, what system are we talking about? Which part of what I have said are you basing this off of? What I suggested was an integral overhaul to customization systems in League, what you're telling me is to remove stats from existing itemization and call it a day, which I do not in any way agree with.
Conclusion: nerf or remove stats on items, adjust champions and stats overall in compensation.
That's what it certainly sounds like you're trying to achieve.
I mentioned _dis_liking that system in that comment you mention, because I think damage types are arbitrary, and unnecessary and artificial at worst.
So, what, do you think everyone should just do "damage"? Nothing to separate AD and AP champions, and allowing Tanks to buy a catch all defensive stat?
I get the feeling there's a lot of confusion here, as much of what you have replied to me here implies you think I believe in practically the exact opposite of what I truly believe in, as stated in my comments.
I've interpreted your comments and ideas as removing the importance of stats from the main focus of itemization and incorporating Runes and Summoner Spells in order to divorce "stat gating" like "Crit scaling, Armor scaling, MR scaling" and so on to encourage "item build diversity" by allowing more effects from Summoner Spells and Runes to be more widely available that everyone can purchase and not just have item groups "intended" for certain classes of champions which end up balanced around those items as shown by the points you've presented.
Right?
Conclusion: nerf or remove stats on items, adjust champions and stats overall in compensation.
Conclusion: roll summoner spells and runes into items, effectively removing the former two systems from the game.
Teridax682 votesPutting the last quote in front because the rest follows from it:
I've interpreted your comments and ideas as removing the importance of stats from the main focus of itemization and incorporating Runes and Summoner Spells in order to divorce "stat gating" like "Crit scaling, Armor scaling, MR scaling" and so on to encourage "item build diversity" by allowing more effects from Summoner Spells and Runes to be more widely available that everyone can purchase and not just have item groups "intended" for certain classes of champions which end up balanced around those items as shown by the points you've presented.
Right?
That only goes up to part 2 of that 4-part post on how League's customization should evolve, so not really. Part 3 in fact goes into detail as to what issues would arise in an environment where the only way to add effects beyond your champion's core abilities was by purchasing items. Part 4 thereby concludes that items, as well as stats, are fundamentally flawed in League, and that the game would need to move beyond an item- and stat-based customization system in order to give champions the build diversity they deserve.
There's also commentary I added after posting my last comment via an edit that you must've missed since you opened the reply before I edited. It questions the "adjust champions and stats overall" portion.
That's fair, and my answer to funnelling stats back into champions is that I think essential stats should be part of a champion's base stats. If a champion absolutely cannot function without health, AD, or AP, then obtaining that stat is already not so much a choice as it is an imperative, so it should be a given to begin with.
With particular regards to levels, stat growth, ability ranks and so on, I think leveling is itself part of the game's customization systems, and I dislike it for many of the same reasons that I dislike stats on items. Gaining raw power doesn't really contribute more options or gameplay, but does tend to contribute to snowballing, which I dislike for a whole bunch of separate reasons. Additionally, the choice suggested by being able to rank up abilities is usually anything but, and Riot themselves have designed kits in such a way that Q is a reliable first max, and maxing R is intended to be mandatory whenever it occurs. It forces abilities to be loaded with scalable effects as well, and to work independently of each other in spite of being on the same kit, so in many ways League's current leveling system is restrictive to champion design. I have absolutely no desire to make the game more snowbally, and so would not want any kind of major power to be given through base stat growth.
"In fact, I find your system to stifle diversity even more than now, as it would lead to champions only being able to fulfill one role. Tanks would need their "naturally large health pool" to survive burst, but wouldn't be able to opt into different roles like full AD or AP.
This isn't really true, though, and can be seen even in a game like Dota, where stats are less important than unique item effects. Assuming that we remain in an item system (which, again, I'm not in favor of), giving champion kits the basics they need to function, but then also giving them access to powerful item effects that can complement various different playstyles (an offensive character could itemize more defensively, or vice versa), could allow for much more flexibility than the current, increasingly inflexible stat system.
However, as stated previously, I do not in fact believe that the ideal customization system for League would be one based on items. I think an ideal system would be one where each champion had their own, tailor-made customization options, so that you could truly decide which playstyle you'd want to use for your champion, and have a guarantee that this playstyle would be completely adapted to the kit you're using, rather than just the champion's abilities plus a bunch of effects used identically by dozens of other champions. In terms of stats and whatnot, this could also mean that if you wanted to play a champion as a burst mage, and selected the option(s) for that, your champion would have the stats and effects they'd need to do so successfully, and in a manner that would fit them the best. As an Ahri main, would you not want a tailor-made burst mage build for her that would afford her, say, more frequent and longer-ranged dashes, plus much stronger innate sustain, without having to sacrifice her core ability set?
That's what it certainly sounds like you're trying to achieve.
Okay, so first off, in the very passage you quoted, I stated that changing stats on items would require adjusting champion and stats overall in compensation. This was, in fact, the larger part of my sentence there. Secondly, that was the conclusion to part 1 of a 4-part thought process on how I think League's customization systems should evolve, with the end conclusion being that the best customization system for League would be one that would be neither stat- nor item-based, but that instead relied on tailored options for every champion.
Just to be absolutely clear on this, I don't think it would ever make sense to just take stats out of all items and not make any other changes to the game in relation to that. Of course that wouldn't work. Of course the game wouldn't function right if every champion ended up being put on a severe statistical deficit and only had their levels to pad their numbers. That's not what I'm asking for. What I absolutely want for League's champions are a) great build diversity, b) great gameplay health, and c) ease and clarity to balance, or at least far more than right now. If you do not disagree with these values, or believe these are incomplete, please let me know, but otherwise I think we're on the same side here.
So, what, do you think everyone should just do "damage"? Nothing to separate AD and AP champions, and allowing Tanks to buy a catch all defensive stat?
Let me ask you a question: what is the difference between AD DPS and AP DPS? What about AD burst and AP burst? Put aside the arbitrary stat you have to select to block one type of damage but not the other, and there functionally isn't a real difference. This is why I dislike damage types, because they don't actually differentiate different modes of damage output. The real different damage types are burst versus persistent damage, and that is what tanky specialization should focus on.
Again, I don't want League to depend on stat purchases, but even in a world where the only tanky stat out there was health, that should not be such a catch-all stat, because static health reserves are (or at least should be) innately strong against burst and weak to DPS. Conversely, the ability for tanks to be strong against DPS and weak to burst is a form of specialization that has been heavily unexplored, which is a shame because that lack innately favors DPS champions (namely marksmen), and automatically means any kind of durability is bound to be anti-mage durability by default. This I think needs to change, and I think a League with less stat-based snowballing is one where some tanks could be sustain-based, rather than raw health-based, without running the risk of going overboard and becoming unkillable if they get too far ahead (again, because in a world without stats, there would be no stats to overscale on).
NineTailedMystic2 votesI see, you'd rather have a Heroes of the Storm type system instead. Everyone levels equally on a team, no items or gold, and a myriad of Talents to customize your abilities, Tanks are naturally tanky, squishies are naturally squishy, and all that. Right?
But with your goals and ideals that you've stated, I have to ask, where is the sense of progression? A player should feel like they're getting stronger over the course of a game. It feels good to buy your big items and hit your powerspikes. And I think that overly lowering the strength of items would be detrimental to that.
I agree that snowball is an issue and is only exacerbated by the way itemization and leveling is designed. However, I don't think it's right to integrate Summoner Spells or Runes into itemization, or to remove the snowball entirely. There should be a reward for getting solo kills or making strong plays in general. It's just that the problem right now is that a single play somewhere on the map makes an entire team too strong. More global tower gold, team wide bounties for shut downs, stronger Dragons, stronger Barons, etc. It used to be that one person on the enemy team could be super scary but manageable in numbers or preying on their teammates who weren't nearly as strong for having one fed teammate to get as strong as them.
Lowering the strength of items while keeping them the same price seems like a solid move, as long as it doesn't dumpster items in general.
I can agree with Talents. I find them very interesting, as long as one Talent is superior than another in the same choice, and in the case of Ahri, it'd be nice to appease the disparity among mains of "Kite Ahri" and "Burst Ahri". However, I don't think that it should be the sole form of customization, and I think that it could be a good replacement for Runes had they not just been reworked.
Let me ask you a question: what is the difference between AD DPS and AP DPS? What about AD burst and AP burst? Put aside the arbitrary stat you have to select to block one type of damage but not the other, and there functionally isn't a real difference. This is why I dislike damage types, because they don't actually differentiate different modes of damage output. The real different damage types are burst versus persistent damage, and that is what tanky specialization should focus on.
Well, no, the one goal of damage is, well, killing the opponents. However, setting aside thematics, damage types serve to differentiate champions. Like how you wouldn't want to pick Yasuo top when you already have an Zed mid, Lee Sin jungle, and an ADC since that would make it very simple to itemize against your team. Not to mention it'd be a battle of numbers in most cases. Pick Zed over Lux if you ever need more "Damage" unlike where it even slightly matters with a Magic Damage vs Physical Damage comparison.
Darkeus14 votesYeah, every time they mess with it or buff it the games turn into Clown Fiesta central. I think they need to take it out of the game or REALLY rework it.
ZT Xperimentor5 votesAgreed, the change from flat armor penetration to lethality just ended up being a buff to bully and snowball champions.
salty testi2 votes[deleted]
Darkeus2 votesYeah, which I think totally shows how much of a mess this is. Good example. EVERYONE has to build it. Game is kind of busted at the moment. Lol.
Lois Mid Lane4 votesLethality meta lasts for what 1 week? Then it becomes tank meta for like a month
Jaspers12 votesThe 1 game I played yesterday had a Zed, so he should be building it, a Sion Lethality Top (against me) chunking me to silly amounts of HP til I got decent armour and a Lucian bot who built Black Cleaver and Youmuu's. On my team, the Fiddle J4 Bot lane, J4 was full lethality.
I don't mind it but when a Sion top is rushing Duskblade, something is up. If the new season starts and all Pros are doing again is picking Jhin vs Varus bot lane, it's going to get stale again. Like the start of last season. Yet they still don't pick Malphite or Rammus.
Lady Birdthulu7 votesI just played an aram where the tanks- even tanks who scale off of AP- were building lethality. Duskblade, etc... And yeah they're chunking health. It was scary.
Jaspers2 votes[{quoted}](name=Lady Birdthulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQAE1Qsn,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-12-19T16:15:21.790+0000)
I just played an aram where the tanks- even tanks who scale off of AP- were building lethality. Duskblade, etc... And yeah they're chunking health. It was scary.
Oh, I got one. I had a Poro King game where the enemy Blitzcrank had Dark Harvest and lethality, only his E would do physical damage (plus autos) and he did got the most kills on his team (although that could have mostly been KSing).
ATastyDessert5 votes[{quoted}](name=Lady Birdthulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQAE1Qsn,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-12-19T16:15:21.790+0000)
I just played an aram where the tanks- even tanks who scale off of AP- were building lethality. Duskblade, etc... And yeah they're chunking health. It was scary.
Lmao yeah ok
AR URF9 votesI might get down-voted, but I don't think I'm wrong when I say that lethality has fucked juggernauts over. It's like this. Lethality for the most part is FLAT armor pen, so those like ADCs and Mages are going to have a hard time vs it. That's why champs like 
and 
are buidling it. Tanks that build beyond 100 armor are going to be unkillable for assassins. squishies are going to get deleted in arguably one or two abilities depending on if the assassin/ADC is fed.
Juggernauts only have 
for % armor pen and since most tanks do %hp damage cough 
cough, juggernauts are now becoming less popular picks. hopefully will get buffed because juggernauts are getting out sustained. IDK if this all makes any sense?
dunder kill1 votesLethality for the most part is FLAT armor pen
It's not. Lethality is nerfed flat armor pen that is gated by level
AR URF2 votesIt's not. Lethality is nerfed flat armor pen that is gated by level
I need to fix what I said. Reading it would be hard to understand for someone.
Edit: Anyway 
and 
give 60 flat armor pen at max level. So if a tank has 260 armor then the assassin is not going to do anything to them. In my opinion I don't like when everything is so black and white like this.
Ralanr2 votesThe assassin still does damage their lethality is just null and void because it’s streighg up countered by armor.
It’s as black and white as lethality piercing the low armor of an ADC.
Ralanr1 votesWait how has lethality screwed over juggernauts? I don’t understand from your explanation.
Onerios2 votesThe logic would go something along the lines of your typical juggernaut (or bruiser for that matter) build want's to delay armour items in favor of damage, specifically things like trinity force, steraks, and black cleaver, so are still vulnerable to lethality builds through mid game to an unacceptable degree. Not quite sure how solid that is, things like armour boots are common and a chain vest is not exactly a significant gold commitment, but could be worth digging into.
Ralanr2 votesBut you can get a cheap armor item after your core and with enough durability from your core item lethality isn’t a big issue.
Onerios2 votesYeh, in theory it should not be a problem, so some more digging needs to be done to see if people are taking the proper countermeasures, or if it is succeeding in spite of them.
AR URF1 votesWait how has lethality screwed over juggernauts? I don’t understand from your explanation.
If I'm not mistaken. Back in season 6 items had % armor pen. So you throw and some other armor pen items and you were able to shred tanks easier. 
and 
used to have 45% armor pen, but got nerfed to 35% for some reason.
Ralanr2 votesLethality didn’t have %pen. Only cleaver had %shred and the LW items were bonus %pen.
All three combined actually made armor stacking somewhat pointless.
salty testi2 votes[deleted]
TehNACHO1 votesOkay to be entirely fair, Garen is the ideal candidate for an off build like that.
While his E makes him look like a DPS champion, his combo with the silence functions more like a (rather slow) Burst pattern. Unlike Darius or Illaoi who are perfectly okay with attacking whoever, Garen's ideal target is the Villain, who typically ends up being the enemy carry. He NEEDS the movement speed to hit them oftentimes and his damage is optimized if he builds to kill a squishy target, aka Lethality.
Nasus is in a similar boat.
PhearBunny8 votesBruisers are naturally dogshit kit wise, so they deserve loaded items. Unfortunatly, they are so dogshit, that the items need to be so overloaded that they start becoming appealing to other champs.
a enormous number of front lane champs need to be buffed so that Lethality items can be nerfed.
Eedat6 votesGetting sick of all the early pen builds tbh. Really fun getting dealt true damage after 2600g 
Can we get our starting resistances back without having to take resolve yet?
Onerios3 votesI'm just surprised it took this long to catch on, full pen items has been the most effective pvp damage boost for magic damage champions for a good few years now, and for most champions your mana fixing item provides sufficient ap to still kill minions acceptably fast.
HaIlMonitor6 votesI am just sick of ADC's abusing everything better then the classes that are supposed to build it.
Who is Taliyah3 votestbh. I believe adc's or rather marksmen in particular should not be able to build lethality. They have last whisper if they need armor pen. With lethality they become just stupid.
I also believe that lethality on marksmen is one reason as to why adc's are so stupid rn.
ProfDrDeath3 votesLethality Marksman ( 
) just got tuned down a notch, as a closer look at their performances indicates. They took hits in the Sorcery path boni nerfs (less AD early), Manaflow Band nerfs (less mana for spamming spells) and the direct nerfs to Lethality items.
The Marksman poke builds are possible a fad right now due to Allstars being the most recent pro tournament - and people like to copy the pros' picks, even though the patch environment might already be something altogether different.
big boi edri3 votes[{quoted}](name=Moonfall Saber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQAE1Qsn,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-19T11:28:31.139+0000)
The most annoying thing in the game is a wukong coming out of nowhere to one shot you with a damn dusk blade.
Huh, that's the most satisfying thing to me, I love Duskblade. I mean without it, Wukong is back to being worthless. He's still a garbage champ as is, but at least he's got DB to prop him up a bit.
PaffWasTaken3 votesLethality was an error from the start; it shouldn't have been created at all
MohawkBird2 votes[deleted]
KyojiTakajo5 votesThey gave items extra lethality, but then reverted it.
Thilmer1 votesBuilding armour if you are not a tank is kinda useless.
For example, I play mages. Should I buy 
that is expensive and gives 45 armour, taking into account that all enemies will ignore at least 36 of that armour?
Yes, yes, the AP, the passive, but I can get AP and defensive passives without expending gold in a stat half the enemy team simply ignore.
RocketRelm3 votesZhoynas isn't bad because it's an armor item, Zhoynas is bad because it's laughably stat inefficient. To be viable, you generally need your completed items to be 105+% gold efficient. Zhoynas is 93% efficient.
You lose way too much damage if you get it rather than a real item.
